Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.3

[Gold_TSG]

If you've been playing Falcon and know that the Pawnch multi-hits, then you know that landing the first hit is the point of gaining the most damage from the move since it is meant to stun for the rest of the hits. When bowser is RRing, you SHOULD NOT be trying to trade with him, especially with the first hit. I've seen other moves clash with the Pawnch before, which feels like a lie from the changelog, but I haven't said a word because I haven't felt it necessary. RR isn't clashing because it isn't an attack. That is how grabs are supposed to work. Go fight some more lvl9 CPUs and pay attention to how many times they will grab you through your attacks despite hitting them.

And stop trying to Pawnch RR.

 

[NEWB]

I think Thor has got a point! If the punch isn't supposed to be tradeable, then the devs got some explaining to do. That is clearly not true.

This calls the intention of RR really. This move is designed to be tradeable with anything, but that contradicts the intention of the punch to never be tradeable with.

 

[Thor]

Well the Pawnch's startup seems almost as long as the duration of RR (at least in the heat of the match or whatever)... it's not that I'm trying to Pawnch them out of it (my spacing is better than that, since it's 3 stomps, move outside of range BOOM Pawnch), it's when I try to combo it out of grounded dair and read a tech option and I'm a little slow and he just RRs right through it after his tech and grabs me. Or I'm a little slow trying to punish RR with it (i.e., he RRs when I'm way out of range, I go just inrange of the Pawnch but out of range of that RR, but he mashes B and starts another one and grabs me again) where I get grabbed.

Just to be clear, I'm not seeing an RR start up and jumping into point-blank range for the first hit of the Pawnch, it's more like I'm given an opportunity, but it's not quite big enough or I'm not frame-perfect or whatever so Bowser starts an RR just before the Pawnch gets out and then I'm grabbed again.

I currently mostly just Knee Bowser, but it's less damage when they RR at low percents or just below KO percents for the knee (at high enough percents they should each KO so it's whatever at that point). And I'd really like to be able to Pawnch him when I set up compared to just kneeing him (although the knee is a fine combo starter and punish, the Pawnch is much more satisfying and KOs earlier).

 

[Pin Clock]

I think Thor has got a point! If the punch isn't supposed to be tradeable, then the devs got some explaining to do. That is clearly not true.

This calls the intention of RR really. This move is designed to be tradeable with anything, but that contradicts the intention of the punch to never be tradeable with.

Royal Rampage is not an attack. The PAWNCH was designed so it can beat out every attack, but Royal Rampage is not an attack, it is a command grab, thus the Falcon Punch cannot beat out RR.

If Falcon were invulnerable during the PAWNCH, an RRing Bowser would simply walk through him and take the damage rather than be knocked away, which would be totally not awesome for either player.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Thats what i was trying to say. If we were to make pawnch the same as coming off the respawn plat, RR would go right through him. Bowser wouldn't grab him after the pawnch, and that would be no bueno.

 

[Thor]

So there would either need to be some sort of freeze placed on characters (more than hitstun, ignoring RR armor and freezing Bowser but not stopping the attack) just for the Pawnch to fully string together, or there'd need to be some way to make Bowser unable to walk through Captain Falcon while he's Pawnching (an invisible, very short wall in the center of CF's body during the Pawnch?) so that Bowser would be stopped by CF's body until the Pawnch finished? That would be obnoxious to code I'm sure.... although these are possible solutions...

Actually, the "intangible but has a small wall that's not CF but stops attacks, lasers and stuff" (like a Sandbag, except it can't move, inside CF's normal hitbox) might be a way to fix the issue...

Or I guess just let Pawnch be tradeable by Bowser, since it's only one character... bleh...

Other suggestion - make half of Pikachu's Thunder hit upwards... or more if it's already half - there are times when someone is near the top after a Usmash but they still get meteored... I'd like to have half of it (or more if it's already half) knock the opponent upward. It also allows for awesome Thunder juggles then, given that it's jump-cancellable (unless people made it a meteor to avoid Thunder juggles in the first place?).

 

[NEWB]

You can already thunder juggle by hitting people already on the ground.

I'm a little confused about what portions of thunder hits upward or spikes. Mist onky the very top that hits ppl up right?

 

[justadood]

pikachu's thunder should work so the lightning bolt spikes them almost 90 degrees down, and thw shock or spikes from pikachu hit outwards, that way if used right, it can hit twice, and otherwise could be controlled for individual uses

 

[Gold_TSG]

Thunder hitting twice? Is it not strong enough as is with crazy ledge guarding and spamability with jump cancels? Sheesh, guys.

 

[Thor]

I was referring to Thunder juggling as more like uair juggling, where you hit them with a Thunder so they go up, and you follow up with another Thunder to send them even higher... sort of like in Brawl where if you Thunder someone and they don't die, you can sometimes still follow up with another Thunder for more percent and/or a KO. The Thunder juggling you reference sounds more like Melee Falco shine->dair->shine->dair -> shine (etc.) combos, which isn't what I'd meant.

I was saying I'd like about half of Thunder to knock stuff upward, to make it more useful for vertical KOs (this may make it slightly less useful for edgeguards, but I'm okay with that).

Also, Justadood's suggestion wouldn't allow you to jump-cancel it (as in, if you want double hit, you have to choose to not jump-cancel it). It's an interesting idea to make a non-jump-cancelled Thunder more rewarding. I'd still rather just have the upward knockback part of Thunder extended some (maybe to a third or two-fifths of Thunder, or else one half of it).

 

[Gold_TSG]

Thunder doesn't need an extension, nor does it need to juggle. It's perfect as it is, for the way it's meant to be used. What you're proposing is to change the entire functionality of the move, and making stronger than it already is. The top of thunder already hits high opponents off the screen for star KOs, you just need to aim it properly. It also doesn't need to hit twice, nor do you need to be rewarded for using it in place on the ground. It already has the benefit of a large, powerful hitbox that mostly protects pikachu once it connects with him. He doesn't need it to land easier, or it'll be broken.

 

[Thor]

According to the ads, Brawl-'s goal is "if it isn't broke, break it until it gets better. If it is broken, act like it isn't broken and break it until it gets better."

It could be a testrun on Thunder anyway. I never see Pikachu high in whatever tier lists there are now, and if it's too good, they can just nerf it back to Minus Max 1.0.

I'm only talking here about more of the top part of Thunder launching vertically. I don't really care either way about meteoring into the base of Thunder for double hits (that actually does seem silly to me).

 

[Gold_TSG]

That slogan more or less refers to what it is compared to vBrawl, not what needs to be compiled on top of what's there. Pikachu is already broken, it just seems less that way because everyone else was broken to make everyone fair.

If you want to take that slogan too seriously, we might as well make every move do 999% damage. Then everyone can kill everyone in one hit.

 

[justadood]

the idea is that if a character is more broken than others, then we should bump everyone else up to that level, not pull that guy back... obviously, we'll sometimes take back something we maybe shouldn't have given the character, but in the long run it's because it just doesn't fit right and it would be too hard to bump everyone else up to balance ....in pikachu's case, he doesn't have a large amount of differences from his vbrawl version:
his thunder bolt (neutral B) is a little stronger, his side b is a LOT stronger (but not very easily transition able), his upB can move twice in the same direction (actually really helps), his back air is definitely a lot different, and his down b, power wise, just spike now, but is jump cancelable, so easier to use... but compared to characters like jiggly where moves have been even ADDED (like selfdestruct) and sing is so much bigger, and her comet punch is also a thunder punch, and her down b heals, and her rollout is interruptable, and her down air fastfalls (same kinda change as pika's helicopter), and her jumps increased, and her smash forward A jumps further, and her down smash does a vacuum, and her taunts do awesome things, i just feel like pikachu (and diddy kong), haven't been changed as much as other characters of course Marth isn't MUCH different either, but he's gotten a few new tricks, like his side b reset, his side b's element attacks, his neutral b's momentum, etc, AND he was already pretty high up on the tier list, so it wasn't like he needed too much... but i still feel like being able to keep the charge from his neutral b, for instance, could really bring in a change that would give him more variety of move plays... and i'm always going to be bringing up ideas for characters who i feel have one trick needed to feel a little more minus-y

 

[Gold_TSG]

I don't disagree that some chars don't feel minus-y enough yet, but I feel that pikachu is in a pretty comfortable spot. Tier lists don't mean squat anyway, as a person's skill with a character determines whether or not they can beat another character. Pikachu doesn't need any changes right now because he is a more technical character. As is, when played properly, he is very capable of wrecking other characters. A bad DI out of a cancelled thunder leads to combos, which can lead to a loss of a stock. He doesn't need more power because he is a fairly combo-heavy character for racking up damage before finishing opponents.

 

[NEWB]

Well, pika isn't actually combo heavy. He just has really strong knockback moves and strong finishers like dsmash. He also gets a good jab and neutral b spam.

Still against giving Marth that ability. That guy is plenty strong as is. Perhaps you are having issues because he is technical. From what I can tell, his neutral b move isn't actually designed to be charged very much at all. An uncharged one practically breaks a fresh sheild, which is very lethal. Even when charged, the move also doesn't grant him any distance gain. I don't really understand what options would become available, since this wouldn't open up any options at all. The attack isn't a combo finisher and isn't even a combo starter. It's a chase tool and recovery tool.

What you do with Marth is abunch of forward grab chains and down throw into fsmash. Master the timing of his tilted fsmash. Grab people out of their attack: Marth does this VERY easily and effortlessly. Juggle foes with dtilt, utilt, and dair(hitting them when on the ground). Time his dair spike: basically the tip and when he brings the sword up at the end of the attack. His side b combo doesn't need to connect with the first hit either. Use it to close the gap between you and the foe and link with the last hits. You don't do this of course if the foe is just standing a short distance from you. This should be done when they are begin a tech that is close to you, or do a dsmash to catch them if they roll towards you. I don't need to tell you to abuse counter.

Just experiment a little more! This guy is a champ!

 

[Thor]

Sometimes I wish I could control the direction of the Pika-copter, but then I remember his recovery would be TOO good...

This is a queston, but Lucario and Pikachu's fsmashes aren't SDIable right? I'd swear someone popped out of Pikachu's once, and thought I'd ask about Lucario while I'm at it... If they are, I suggest removing SDI capacity, or else giving each of them the angled/non-angled versions to help them ensure a KO if they know they can land it.

Also, is Snake's fsmash supposed to be that after one or two of the big blasts, you can still choose to angle it to hit the 5 long-range blasts in place of the remaining blasts? This happens and seems really really good - not sure if there should be a nerf or not though.

On Diddy Kong, he can use three bananas, and can form projectiles to throw at any time by holding b while using an aerial, giving him access to glide-tossing EXTREMELY easily. He feels a bit more buffed than Pikachu, except in the recovery department (although his up+b changes are nice). I suggest that even if you use the Diddy Kick, you still get to up+b if you haven't yet landed.

Also, I don't think Marth storing shield-breaker is a good idea - that's begging for abuse, especially in teams (shield-breaker to warlock punch?). Even in Singles, it'll often be shield-breaker to fully charged tipper-fsmash, which is kind of icky. And it is just me, or does Marth not really have a spike hitbox on the front half of dair? I hit someone with the very tip of the blade on the front side and it was a sourspot trajectory (up) - if this is the case, would it be too much to ask for just one Marth change, namely that he has a meteor hitbox on the front of dair too? Pit's has a hitbox throughout, although maybe the characters have different meteor hitboxes for balance reasons...

 

[Gold_TSG]

When I said combo-heavy, I didn't mean to a high degree, just that he has more combo options than most characters. I know because even CPUs have used such combos on me before.

Storing a shield breaker is... Well, broken. No one should have an instant shield-breaking attack to use at will (the only acception being Falcon, and only through his ultrataunt), especially since the move itself is still pretty strong.

As for Marth's tipper, are you sure you hit with the very tip? I'm pretty sure even those spots have the sweetspot, though it's much more common more below and behind him than on his front side.

 

[NEWB]

Meh? Marth's playstyle is spacing and juggling. I know and play several Marth players that have no issue with spiking. I'm ironing that out myself. I would rather it be kept this ways as it actually forces people to learn how to space and be technical, which is what you are supposed to do. I like luigi's dair as it is now for the same reason.

Should Falco's sourspot on his dair spike?

 

[NEWB]

Nevermind, falco needs it. It helps him onstage.

 

[justadood]

well i was thinking of marth's neutral b similarly to dk's, rather than falcon's... but if you can't hold the charge, why not make it charge faster in the air, like dk?.. and it's not that it would be "over powered" or anything, especially if you actually took my other ideas into account and gave other characters buffs so they got buffed together and each character would be getting more variety in move choice and execution, which is my ultimate (personal) goal:

Spoiler

I've actually personally been writing a story for a video game series idea, and my biggest standard i want my games to have is the gamer's ability to control as much about the game as possible... and i'm pretty sure every programmer and video game designer follows a certain guideline where a successful game needs to give the gamer as much freedom as possible, or at least enough to cover every nook and cranny and possible outcome that another gamer can think of in order to make sure the game feels "complete"

i'll eventually write a list of the ideas i have that could be given to each character to make them each feel as complete as possible... ...if i can't come up with an exact moveset or input, i'll at least write the kinds of moves i think the character could have from his/her/its respective games

 

[Thor]

I would rather it be kept this ways as it actually forces people to learn how to space and be technical, which is what you are supposed to do.

Does that mean we should nerf the meteoring hitboxes on Pit's dair? Or are Pit players supposed to be less technical than Marth players? Or is Pit's supposed to be more of a general use move, like Falco dair, instead of Marth's, which is mainly for meteoring?

Also, is there a reason Wario's bike is slightly affected by gravity now? Was no gravity on it in the air too good? Otherwise I think zero gravity on the bike is cooler, without being much of a buff.

How much is Jigglypuff's Rest supposed to heal? On my Brawl- Max 1.0 (problems uploading the update, so still 1.0) it was healing about 30% on hit (I didn't hit all three other players at once)... I think that's supposed to be way lower, but I checked and rechecked (through some more Rests) and that's what it healed for. (Granted, I checked at high percents, like in the 80% range - does it have healing scaling or something?) I thought it was only supposed to heal 10% on hit, and 15% while she sleeps, for a total of 25%. Also I landed so many Rests on a stock once that fully-charged Charge Shot from Samus didn't do enough damage to flinch me out of the endlag of Rest. No knockback either. Negative percent is silly, although I assume this is being fixed in Max 3.3 so I didn't really need to mention this.

 

[NEWB]

I think they said they were addressing it. Negative damage that is.

My only thing about that dood, is that many characters in minus already feel complete.

You have a point about pit, but his spike has lesser be then Marths. Also pits dair will hit people up or spike them as well. You have t noticed this? I sometimes have issues getting pits fair to spike.

Wario's bike got some gravity on it so it could land on the ground. I like how it is now, but I don't know why it was changed. That's my take on it.

 

[Thor]

Sometimes Pit's dair will hit people up

XD I'm too good at the Pit meteor then, in all the meteors I've gone for with Pit, I've hit all of them, and I never noticed him popping aerial characters up with it onstage either. If only I had that skill with Marth dair, since I like Marth but I don't play Pit much.

His fair has a meteor? Are you serious?

Could they make Wario's bike only descend if you're pressing down as somewhat as you move? Then it still is unaffected by gravity, but can land if needed. (like Charizard's glide, it doesn't go up at all)

 

[Gold_TSG]

Marth's B should not charge faster in the air. It already charges fast enough. If it charged faster in the air, it would turn the move into one of the strongest gimping tools in the game. Because of the forward momentum and lingering hitbox, it has great usage for chase-poking offstage, and often pushes opponents out enough to keep them from getting back, if not outright killing them, while leaving Marth with enough ability to get back.