Though mentioned before or elsewhere, bringing back up just in case. Previous things I've brought up are fading for the most part, so they were problems in behaviors we had. Persisting things though:
Mario's dash attack combo'ing into itself ~3 times -> dunk, probably needs some sort of change.
Jigglypuff's negative health off the rest.
Ivy's down-B being so safe.
Also since people seem to be crashing a lot with DK, maybe take his vanilla skins into Brawl Box, re-export as a .pair, and see if that helps any? On a custom build we run with a ton of custom skins, crashes are extremely rare, so assumption would be vanilla skins not playing well with new moves for some reason?
If that were the case, wouldn't it affect more characters than just DK? I'm suspecting some weird rogue coding that somehow randomly clashes with other codes to cause the crashes, since it's always random, and usually during the transition to the victory screen.
Am I really the only one that has encountered the samus v sonic glitch? Basically, the game starts lagging as the match begins, and only half of sonic appears. Freezes at results screen if u quit the match. Happened to me 3 times now, but rare. Renown loading it didn't seem to fix it.
That has happened to me in completely random Samus vs Falcon matches before. I couldn't tell you what causes it, as whoever Samus is facing, most of them don't appear. (in Falcon's case, only his shoulder guard is there.)
I'd like to see the Falcon Punch gain invincibility on contact, not just heavy armor - multiple times I've had a Bowser just Royal Rampage through the attack and grab Captain Falcon before the strong blow (27%) comes out, which means landing the punch on Bowser in the Rampage nets about 7% damage and Bowser gets the grab. Maybe this is intentional but I think it's kind of silly and would love this small change.
I would also love to see some sort of vertical boost to Marth's recovery - I suggest side+B having a noticeable (if small) boost effect when only the first blow is used, and this boost shrinking, eventually disappearing (probably the third one has no net effect on height and the others also just stall him) [Not sure but I suggest that this would also be like double jumps in that the boost doesn't refresh if you get hit]. This would both be sort of like Melee side+b (a bit of a throwback to it) and would boost his vertical recovery, which is (in my opinion) rather mediocre (then again, I'm used to Falco, Pikachu, MK, and Captain Falcon, so maybe I'm just spoiled in my character choice for recoveries).
Captain falcon doesn't really have that good a recovery. Same as Marth almost.
I don't think its necessary. Marth is insanely good, but not op as of now. I don't want give him better recovery. This gut RAPES when you get the timing on his dair and fsmash tilts and other smashes. His grab range is also godly.
Um.. He didn't. Read the posts again. He was saying that the punch should gain invincibility and Marth should gain recovery. He then said that maybe he was spoiled with his characters recovery, and I objected that falcon doesn't have good recovery. then I said Marth shouldn't get more recovery.
Both of these guys are lethal onstage and IMO, shouldn't get better recovery. When I say lethal, I mean that they zero to death other characters with more ease then other characters. I could be wrong about this, but from my experience, these guys are godly in the right hands.
Sorry, I missed that bit at the end of his character preferences but on the subject of a better neutral B, the falcon punch could use invincibility on hit to counter this problem, but I think it'd be better if bowser's just had a different way of getting invincibility I suggested before that bowser should get a dash, kinda like ganon for his royal rampage, and maybe if it was revamped a little, instead of armor frames that keep him from being flinched by low damage moves, it could be dependent on the knockback on the attack.. then if the falcon punch's hitboxes acted like a stun thing with high knockback and low damage for each hit it does before the final punch frame, maybe that could work?... idk
That works if moves could be calculated by knockback. I'm not sure that can be done.
So what is intended? Falcon punch is intended to only be dodge able and otherwise break sheilds and moves. But it doesn't tank through bowser cuz he tanks everything. My favorite thing was when my friend launched the punch but I tanked it by fully charging fsmash!
Sounds like there should be a way to reduce RRs "priority" since it is clearly not popular among most people. Of course the move still needs to function effectively...
I'm not trying to be pedantic here, but just for the sake of us all using the same terms, Captain Falcon does have invincibility during the Falcon Punch, in the sense that Captain Falcon cannot take damage. Armor (Super Armor, Heavy Armor) means the character can take damage but cannot take knockback. That's what happens to Bowser when he uses forward smash, or Royal Rampage (neutral special).
Captain Falcon does not become intangible, which means attacks can still hit him, but since he is invincible then he takes no damage or knockback from the attacks. This way a projectile that hits him won't just pass through him, the projectile will actually hit Captain Falcon. But Falcon won't take any damage. But that also means that he can still be grabbed, because a grab hitbox isn't the same as an attack hitbox. The grab "hits" Captain Falcon, just as a projectile would, but grabs don't do damage and knockback like an attack.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but making it so that Captain Falcon can't be grabbed while doing the Falcon Punch would mean making him intangible, which means he wouldn't be hit by anything at all. This is a step beyond invincibility, which means that all attacks would pass right through Captain Falcon like he's not even there, including projectiles.
Personally, I think it's fine that Bowser can use Royal Rampage to go through the Falcon Punch.
I'm leaning towards that too. People shouldn't throw out attacks like that if they won't catch him when he is vulnerable. For bowser, that is when he is landing or in smash attack endlag.
That being said, I still have a suggestion for slightly changing RR.
People don't seem to like it because it is spammy and the grabs are very rewarding. So what if doing and connecting with RR forces bowser to do one or two pummels, so people could break out of it. This would also reduce the power of his grabs since they would do more if done after the pummels. He could even get an alt pummel, like his bite from sideb in melee.
I think that this would give people a fair chance to break out of RR. As is, the grabs are so good that no one I their right mind would do pummel or even NEED to do pummel. What we currently have is a very safe and spammy grab that has range and power. I think this would tone it down a bit while still being awesome, especialy if he gets an alt pummel.
Here is a suggestion: maybe make it so that Ness and Lucas can cancel out of PK Flash/Freeze and PK Thunder. Maybe only make it possible if they are on the ground, not airborne. The idea is to make it like how Snake could cancel out of his Nikita missile launcher in vBrawl. In Snake's case, the missile would fall to the ground if he cancelled, but in the case of PK attacks, I think it would make more sense if they just continue along their current trajectory as when Ness/Lucas is attacked. Also, if Ness is able to cancel out of PK Flash, then it probably shouldn't be made so that PK Flash explodes on contact with the ground, since that would make it too easy for Ness to set up traps (start PK Flash along a set trajectory, cancel so that Ness can be controlled, and then lure or knock opponent into the Flash trajectory as it explodes). Since PK Flash is such a powerful attack, being able to make it explode (by touching the ground) while still controlling Ness might make it too powerful.
Making RR a dash like Dorf's flame choke would give him a lot of unnecessary power and mobility, since he is already a powerhouse in his own right. Plus, giving Falcon a way to avoid RR gives him even more of an advantage against bowser than he already has, let alone against everyone else. RR needs to be tweaked to make it less overpowered, but still functional. Bowser has a bare-basics combo game, and he can't set up a majority of it without dair, which is easily shielded.
I still think he should be given his combo back for his side B slam so it connects better, making him bounce up instead of back so he can attack within range. A fix to the side B spam potential there would be an easy fix; make it so he can't use side B again for a couple seconds.
I agree 100 percent. What about my suggestion to make rr do 1 or two pummels before being able to do a throw? So the foe can break out of it? Throws would be weakened because of the pummels. Could get an alt pummel for this! Maybe his pummel where he bites you in melee with sideb?
I'm not even saying give Falcon a way to avoid RR (he can just fine as is), I'm just annoyed that if someone mashes B quick enough because your read isn't frame-perfect they can avoid actually eating most of the damage of a Falcon Punch as Bowser... like, yeah Bowser should land the grab after the Punch ends, but the fact that a move that does 35% (or something like that) normally hits for 7% is just... irritating, especially considering how tricky it is to read someone to actually land the full Falcon Punch. And it's not a step beyond invincibility at all - invincibility is immunity to damage and grabs... this would give him immunity to damage and grabs... he doesn't have to let projectiles through him, it could be like just giving him a Starman while the active Punch hitboxes are out. I actually think the RR's current functioning is fine, except I think when CF lands the Punch he deserves the full percentage to be put on his opponent.
Also, about the recovery thing, Falcon's jump seems huge to me (bigger than Brawl), his side+b gives nice height boosts if they mess up the edgeguard (this is mostly irrelevant), and his up+B leaves him plenty of horizontal mobility afterwards as well as seeming to have an extra vertical boost it didn't have in Brawl (pops him even higher than in Brawl), and if he grabs someone he gets it again. Meanwhile I think Marth just got his neutral+B buff. I'm not saying CF's recovery is good (although it seems rather solid), but I still feel like it's better than Marth's by a somewhat noticeable margin, and it leaves him several options (Falcon kick is there too) when Marth's recovery feels kind of linear (you just hit b until you can jump + up+b) and seems vertically mediocre at best - maybe a better way to put it is that I feel like Marth's vertical recovery doesn't feel Minusy enough, while Falcon's recovery feels Minusy. At this point I'm not expecting a change on either of the things I've mentioned (based on people's reactions), but they're suggestions I'd like to see so I'll leave them here, and maybe I'll get lucky.
For the side+b combo for Bowser, they could just make it like Judgement where it has obscene amounts of lag that is cancelable by any action that's not a special button move. Unless you want side+B to combo into itself (I don't think you were suggesting that), but if you were, that's kind of lame in my opinion - it also sounds like a chaingrab which is what I thought they were trying to avoid (although I THINK Falco can get a regrab off a dthrow on Bowser at 0%, not positive on this - although I don't think Bowser gives a ****).
Trust me, it's not that great. Falcon absolutely suffers without a double jump. After a side b, falcon gains no vertical height because raptor boost has endlag. Marth doesn't have that. He doesn't need to hit anyone, but falcon does, and that's why it's pretty bad compared to everyone else. We weren't arguing about who's is better though.
Yeah, no one wants sideb to chain together, we just want it to link with something.
one idea for marth that could help recovery, and probably change a lot about him, is either making his neutral b have more horizontal momentum at low charge, at least in air, or to be able to hold the neutral b charge to use later, like reverse recovery utility of samus's neutral b... if you went with the second idea, maybe just extending the charge time could keep it balanced, but as is, you don't usually use neutral b without charging, and we always go for the charge anyway, so if it could be held, but take longer, it could train us to "save" it...
as for falcon, i think he just falls too fast after the side b... the end lag isn't very long, but it's almost like you're forced into quickfall during it :/ if that could be changed a little, it could help...
and i like the bowser idea, as far as making the pummels give the foe time to jump out, but maybe.. bare with me:
-bowser's pummel was optional, but was kinda quick with decent damage build up (encourage pummels)
-the throws are weakened a little to compensate for his pummels being a good damage build up (encourages pummeling a few times before throwing)
-and the opponents could still escape the grab during the start-up of the throw (especially for the down throw) (encourage pummeling to build damage and then throwing quickly before they get close to escaping)
if we went with this, the punishment for being spammy with bowser's pummel would be missing the throw, while not pummeling enough would waste an opportunity to build damage, and the throw not doing as much damage anymore would discourage throwing immediately
(and let me be clear about the dash idea for him: i wanted his royal rampage to move to his side b and be a light dash, like the way the "great king of evil, ganondorf"-hack's down b works
...basically, when you held down b with ganon, you charged (charge as in run slow), and when you let go, he swung his sword down... my idea was that bowser's royal rampage should be a kinda slow charge like that (maybe common walk speed), and when you let go, he'll grab whatever he's next to, and maybe also do a slash like the one from melee... i would make the dash look like the rampage from mario64, where he looks like he's kinda waddling really fast towards mario on his rear two legs.. anyway, i would then make his midair side b skip the charge and just be a slash/grab that went into either galactic crusher or the flip, depending on if you held b or a direction... also, i'd like to note that if this happened, his neutral b would be free to be changed into a fireball-type move again... i would go with just giving him the same article as the gandouken (which is actually an edited super-scope shot) since it's slow, eats projectiles, and looks almost exactly like the giant fireballs he can shoot out in his games... ...if this happened, another cool thing for him would be the fire-rain thing from mario64 as an ultra-taunt for his neutral b... maybe you get one use based on damage done or received, or maybe it's a really long start-up taunt, and then the neutral b changes to shoot the fireball upward and spew out the fire breath he used to have (that charizard still has)...)
...speaking of which, the trainer's pokemon and pikachu still don't have either ultra-taunts or funny taunts
I'm not trying to be pedantic here, but just for the sake of us all using the same terms, Captain Falcon does have invincibility during the Falcon Punch, in the sense that Captain Falcon cannot take damage. Armor (Super Armor, Heavy Armor) means the character can take damage but cannot take knockback. That's what happens to Bowser when he uses forward smash, or Royal Rampage (neutral special).
Captain Falcon does not become intangible, which means attacks can still hit him, but since he is invincible then he takes no damage or knockback from the attacks. This way a projectile that hits him won't just pass through him, the projectile will actually hit Captain Falcon. But Falcon won't take any damage. But that also means that he can still be grabbed, because a grab hitbox isn't the same as an attack hitbox. The grab "hits" Captain Falcon, just as a projectile would, but grabs don't do damage and knockback like an attack.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but making it so that Captain Falcon can't be grabbed while doing the Falcon Punch would mean making him intangible, which means he wouldn't be hit by anything at all. This is a step beyond invincibility, which means that all attacks would pass right through Captain Falcon like he's not even there, including projectiles.
Personally, I think it's fine that Bowser can use Royal Rampage to go through the Falcon Punch.
This is 100% correct. Falcon is already invincible during falcon punch. The reason bowser can grab him is because being grabbed by a grab collision box doesn't work on the same level as normal hitboxes. The reason a full pawnch does only 7% is because either 1: falcon gets grabbed before the punch can finish. or, 2: because bowsers invincibility allows him to NOT get caught in the knockback that would normally keep an opponent in position for the rest of the punch's hits. Whichever is happenening, if i recall correctly, the only way to solve it would be to either make falcon completely intangible during the punch, or make Bowser not invincible.
If you get grabbed by RR during a Pawnch, that simply means you were outplayed. Making his Pawnch omnipotent is just ridiculous, and I happen to love Falcon as a character. If you want to land the Pawnch, either wait til after they use RR and hop over them to do a reverse Pawnch, or charge one up and let it loose in their face after jumping a bit to avoid the grab box when RR ends. Falcon already has enough power over bowser since be can combo him into oblivion.
As for the RR idea, I personally don't like the idea of forced pummeling. I say either weaken the throws a bit to make them less "PRESS B TO WIN" and more manageable as better-than-normal-but-not-broke-as-shit extra throws, or just add more endlag to a missed RR so it's easily punishable for spamming, and more rewarding for a successful grab. Hell, make it so he travels like half the distance if you really have to.
And to clarify, the side B slam thing is to avoid the spam use that it once had. The fact is, the option of canceling into other moves upon completing the slam serves virtually no point if you always bounce out of reach of the opponent. There is no point to "use it to cancel the lag" either, as the opponent sure as hell can't recover fast enough to even do anything to you upon being slammed. I just think that if the option is there, you might as well make it useful. And as I said, making it so you lose the option to spam it is the way to fix it. Disabling special cancels is the best option for it.
I've already explained the problem... it's that Bowser walks through the stun of the Punch and grabs Falcon before the Punch finishes. It's not like Bowser doesn't eat whatever damage it deals before he grabs him, he just grabs him before the Punch actually finishes.
And you don't need intangibility, you just need the regular kind of invincibility a Starman or getting off the revival platform provides. People aren't intangible when they're affected by a Starman or getting off the revival platform, as they still get hit by projectiles and attacks, they just aren't slowed by them or affected by grab hitboxes. You can walk through Falco's lasers and they DISAPPEAR when you're under the Starman effects because they clank with you, they don't just go right through you, which shows you DON'T NEED INTANGIBILTY!
Invincibility is when you are unaffected by attacks and grabs, at least that's how it's been in all the previous Smash titles and every single other mod. Captain Falcon has attack immunity, but not grab immunity currently, so he's not actually invincible.
Or else if everyone else is using the definition "you don't take damage even if you can be grabbed" as invincibility, and intangibility is "Every attack passes THROUGH you" like some others said (which is what spotdodging does), then we need a new term for "You clank stuff out with your body without taking damage and you can't be grabbed" (the effects of the revival platform and the Starman) and I'm saying THAT'S what should be on the Punch.
If your opponent is trading with a move that's not supposed to be trade-able, only avoided, it shows the designers got outplayed because they can't even properly design a move so that it's most advantageous to avoid it, and it was in the official changelog that "You shouldn't be able to trade with the Pawnch, only avoid it". Bowser landing a RR for ~7% is very strong against Captain Falcon. Bowser landing a RR for ~30% seems fine.
Also my suggestion was incomplete, I was suggesting "take old angle and make it have a ton of cancelability frames that excludes cancelling it with a special move."
AND I'm not saying make the Punch do knockback to Bowser, I'm just saying if they walk into a Punch with the RR they should eat the full Punch, THEN grab Falcon, not just grab him out of his Punch. The point of the upgrades to the Punch were that people shouldn't be able to trade with the Punch, only avoid it, but this is letting Bowser not only trade with the Punch, but get more damage out of the trade than Falcon does, which is just silly.
If Bowser is grabbing your Falcon when you try to land Falcon Punch on him, stop trying to land Falcon Punch on him. Gotta adapt to the matchup you're in.
but on the subject of a better neutral B, the falcon punch could use invincibility on hit to counter this problem, but I think it'd be better if bowser's just had a different way of getting invincibility 
