Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.3
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
We also discussed more tweaks to rob.
Gyros don't break when they hit projectiles or sheild. He gets two anyway, so this buff is dumb.
Removing the stun on his laser. Also his Nair wasn't supposed to send foes up.
Links helm splitter is trying to find an input.
Did I miss something guys? I guess just balance tweaks to sheik and lucario were also discussed.
We also discussed more tweaks to rob.
Gyros don't break when they hit projectiles or sheild. He gets two anyway, so this buff is dumb.
Removing the stun on his laser. Also his Nair wasn't supposed to send foes up.
Links helm splitter is trying to find an input.
Did I miss something guys? I guess just balance tweaks to sheik and lucario were also discussed.
Glyph
Moderator
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
ROB
-Adjust superROBdash
-Adjust gyro mechanics
Charizard
-Change neutral b
-Up-b occasionally is missing the ledge and going beyond it, also doesn't seem to snap to the ledge like other up-bs do.
Ivysaur
-Examine Leaf Storm's utility as a ledgeguarding tool
Lucario
-Make double team less abusable?
Ness
-Buff bat moveset (maybe I am just bad with the bat)
Jigglypuff
-Gravity makes a weird sound when it connects (known bug?)
TL
-Arrow buffs
DK
-Reinstate franklin badge maybe????????
Ike
-Remove ability to use Eruption out of counter in NS mode (maybe jump cancel instead while leaving stun)
Link
-Add in helm splitter, preferably over ftilt. Currently the two hits do a total of 37%, which I think is way too strong.
Kirby
-Buff knockback on his upthrow.
-Fix copy abilities?
ROB
-Adjust superROBdash
-Adjust gyro mechanics
Charizard
-Change neutral b
-Up-b occasionally is missing the ledge and going beyond it, also doesn't seem to snap to the ledge like other up-bs do.
Ivysaur
-Examine Leaf Storm's utility as a ledgeguarding tool
Lucario
-Make double team less abusable?
Ness
-Buff bat moveset (maybe I am just bad with the bat)
Jigglypuff
-Gravity makes a weird sound when it connects (known bug?)
TL
-Arrow buffs
DK
-Reinstate franklin badge maybe????????
Ike
-Remove ability to use Eruption out of counter in NS mode (maybe jump cancel instead while leaving stun)
Link
-Add in helm splitter, preferably over ftilt. Currently the two hits do a total of 37%, which I think is way too strong.
Kirby
-Buff knockback on his upthrow.
-Fix copy abilities?
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
Ness' bat moveset doesn't really need buffing or tweaking yet. It's too new. Seeing as how you can change between Movesets instantly, there isn't too much of an issue.
Can we get clarification on what patch we are on or even what the mod is called.
Brawl minus?
Brawl minus Max?
Brawl minus patch level Max 1.0?
Brawl minus patch level Max 3.0?
So is max part of the title or the name of the patch level? And what patch level is it? Loading up the game, it says 1.0, but at the title screen, it says 3.0.
Ness' bat moveset doesn't really need buffing or tweaking yet. It's too new. Seeing as how you can change between Movesets instantly, there isn't too much of an issue.
Can we get clarification on what patch we are on or even what the mod is called.
Brawl minus?
Brawl minus Max?
Brawl minus patch level Max 1.0?
Brawl minus patch level Max 3.0?
So is max part of the title or the name of the patch level? And what patch level is it? Loading up the game, it says 1.0, but at the title screen, it says 3.0.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
We're currently on MAX 1.0, so the next update will probably be MAX 1.1.
Didn't we also agree that ROB's Side B doesn't need the ability to reflect projectiles anymore, since it can now be cancelled into other moves? It's also really hard for certain characters (like Falcon) to get out of ROB's F-Air chains.
I'd still like to see some some buffs to Falcon's Side Taunt, and make him go through projectiles earlier in his Side B.
We're currently on MAX 1.0, so the next update will probably be MAX 1.1.
Didn't we also agree that ROB's Side B doesn't need the ability to reflect projectiles anymore, since it can now be cancelled into other moves? It's also really hard for certain characters (like Falcon) to get out of ROB's F-Air chains.
I'd still like to see some some buffs to Falcon's Side Taunt, and make him go through projectiles earlier in his Side B.
Smilindeth
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
Numbering can also vary on who large of a patch it is, could say 3.0.1 or something.
Main things that have been standing out for the group I've seen playing it have been issues with:
- Kirby using Olimar's ability, the spam wall is a deadly shield that few can pass if you get knocked off stage.
- Bowser's Royal Rampage that does 35% damage after an instant start and CAN'T be canceled mid-way by others (It seemed perfect in 2.x when he had the rainbow glow). I can see him have the armor for the walk, but in anything past a 1v1, it can be godlike or him armoring through everything and getting off easy kills with the massive grab box.
- Jigglypuff's heal for 45% (20 instant that can go past 0, and 25 over time). A couple players have been abusing the heck out of this, especially anywhere with water. Today got to watch one get 10 kills with it after taking over 300% damage in the match, and ending at "0%" with full stocks. Needs some sort of cooldown, or only do % of current damage, or something. Telling everyone that they need to just get better isn't a good way to handle it, especially when trying to bring new people to the mod.
- Ivysaur's leaf storm is pretty damn safe, and just with a hop, it is better than the majority of Ivy's moves. Also considerably stronger than Squirtle's and Charizard's down+B moves.
Also would it be possible to bring over the projectile reflect for perfect shielding? Would love to do minus juggling of Yoshi eggs, and it could be something to help out the big clunky guys.
Numbering can also vary on who large of a patch it is, could say 3.0.1 or something.
Main things that have been standing out for the group I've seen playing it have been issues with:
- Kirby using Olimar's ability, the spam wall is a deadly shield that few can pass if you get knocked off stage.
- Bowser's Royal Rampage that does 35% damage after an instant start and CAN'T be canceled mid-way by others (It seemed perfect in 2.x when he had the rainbow glow). I can see him have the armor for the walk, but in anything past a 1v1, it can be godlike or him armoring through everything and getting off easy kills with the massive grab box.
- Jigglypuff's heal for 45% (20 instant that can go past 0, and 25 over time). A couple players have been abusing the heck out of this, especially anywhere with water. Today got to watch one get 10 kills with it after taking over 300% damage in the match, and ending at "0%" with full stocks. Needs some sort of cooldown, or only do % of current damage, or something. Telling everyone that they need to just get better isn't a good way to handle it, especially when trying to bring new people to the mod.
- Ivysaur's leaf storm is pretty damn safe, and just with a hop, it is better than the majority of Ivy's moves. Also considerably stronger than Squirtle's and Charizard's down+B moves.
Also would it be possible to bring over the projectile reflect for perfect shielding? Would love to do minus juggling of Yoshi eggs, and it could be something to help out the big clunky guys.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
It's not hard to avoid Mario. Either jump away or roll behind him at times. Stop what you are doing and sheild certain moves of his and dodge roll others. This is harder for newer players to stop and analyze, and maybe harder for vets that are used to offensive play, but it is a necessary skill in general and not a real reason to remove. Defensive technique is important, even against other characters. Metal Mario's choices are mostly limited to ground because when he jumps, he lands immediately afterwards. He will use fireballs to approach, and you can call him on this by jumping into him and doing your own aerial to power threw the balls. If he calls you on it, he can counter. That is a fair mixup.
Yes he is fine without, but people generally love it and it's been a staple in minus for a long time that isn't op.
It's not hard to avoid Mario. Either jump away or roll behind him at times. Stop what you are doing and sheild certain moves of his and dodge roll others. This is harder for newer players to stop and analyze, and maybe harder for vets that are used to offensive play, but it is a necessary skill in general and not a real reason to remove. Defensive technique is important, even against other characters. Metal Mario's choices are mostly limited to ground because when he jumps, he lands immediately afterwards. He will use fireballs to approach, and you can call him on this by jumping into him and doing your own aerial to power threw the balls. If he calls you on it, he can counter. That is a fair mixup.
Yes he is fine without, but people generally love it and it's been a staple in minus for a long time that isn't op.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
I don't play grade A Mario players, I played someone who kicked my ass EVERYTIME I used it. Why is it capitalizing EVERYTIME? That person raped me with 2.6 versions of Marth, link, falco, toon link, snake, zamus, and sheik. My mm usually got either chain grabbed or he stopped and shutdown all my approaches. It was just one guy, but he was really good at all those characters.
No vids unfortunately. We need to see your matches though. I can't see the problem, literally.
I don't play grade A Mario players, I played someone who kicked my ass EVERYTIME I used it. Why is it capitalizing EVERYTIME? That person raped me with 2.6 versions of Marth, link, falco, toon link, snake, zamus, and sheik. My mm usually got either chain grabbed or he stopped and shutdown all my approaches. It was just one guy, but he was really good at all those characters.
No vids unfortunately. We need to see your matches though. I can't see the problem, literally.
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
i pretty much agree with what bent said on that..i don't think a good mario player will get chaingrabed reliebly unless it's lucario's side-b. and even then, with all the other stuff i talked about, good luck getting close to a good metal mario to do said thing...
i just think it should be nerfed a bit. not taken away. metal mario has to oportunity to COMPLETELY change the match, and not like lucario was, where if he got hit once after the taunt he DIED. metal mario ensures he WILL live to whatever percent he wants. i've resigned myself to just running away with lucario when he's metal....definitely not fun
i pretty much agree with what bent said on that..i don't think a good mario player will get chaingrabed reliebly unless it's lucario's side-b. and even then, with all the other stuff i talked about, good luck getting close to a good metal mario to do said thing...
i just think it should be nerfed a bit. not taken away. metal mario has to oportunity to COMPLETELY change the match, and not like lucario was, where if he got hit once after the taunt he DIED. metal mario ensures he WILL live to whatever percent he wants. i've resigned myself to just running away with lucario when he's metal....definitely not fun
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
I kinda think you guys are being babies at this point. That isn't fair at all of course, but what can I say? Without replays, no one can prove anything. If you are a good metal Mario player, that means you have learned how to play him right, like what glyph has been saying about rob. I use Mario and metal Mario. He doesn't rape or seem to give me an advantage at all because I'm not as good as the other mysterious metal Mario players are. If you need to be good at it, then it's worth it, just like with any other character.
Well I've spent too much time saying the same thing. So yeah, get replays.
I kinda think you guys are being babies at this point. That isn't fair at all of course, but what can I say? Without replays, no one can prove anything. If you are a good metal Mario player, that means you have learned how to play him right, like what glyph has been saying about rob. I use Mario and metal Mario. He doesn't rape or seem to give me an advantage at all because I'm not as good as the other mysterious metal Mario players are. If you need to be good at it, then it's worth it, just like with any other character.
Well I've spent too much time saying the same thing. So yeah, get replays.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
Several things.
Sonics back throw is pretty bad. Doesn't really kill and doesn't help sonic strategically. He could also use another kill move IMO.
Get bowsers side b and neutral b differentiated better. My only suggestion is either don't allow galaxy crusher to move round left and right, or make it go right.
Ivysaur doesn't edge hop well. Tilting back when he is on the edge causes him to wall jump. Is this intended?
Snake can wall jump out of his upb. This makes recovering annoying as hell. If you get too close to fd, trying to back away causes him to wall jump to his death. REALLY bad.
There is an issue with distant planet. Someone needs to do a replay demonstrating that some characters don't land on the right portion of the stage properly.
Several things.
Sonics back throw is pretty bad. Doesn't really kill and doesn't help sonic strategically. He could also use another kill move IMO.
Get bowsers side b and neutral b differentiated better. My only suggestion is either don't allow galaxy crusher to move round left and right, or make it go right.
Ivysaur doesn't edge hop well. Tilting back when he is on the edge causes him to wall jump. Is this intended?
Snake can wall jump out of his upb. This makes recovering annoying as hell. If you get too close to fd, trying to back away causes him to wall jump to his death. REALLY bad.
There is an issue with distant planet. Someone needs to do a replay demonstrating that some characters don't land on the right portion of the stage properly.
Ferrous Faucet
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
Peach is my favorite fighter. I have always thought that Toad needs to be buffed. It's supposed to be a counter move, but compared to the swordsman counter (Marth/Ike/Roy) it's less useful because Peach doesn't turn around. She can only counter an attack from the front.
Peach is my favorite fighter. I have always thought that Toad needs to be buffed. It's supposed to be a counter move, but compared to the swordsman counter (Marth/Ike/Roy) it's less useful because Peach doesn't turn around. She can only counter an attack from the front.
justadood
Just a dood with ideas
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
charizard could get ember as a neutral B tapping move, like fox/captain falcon's old jab combo, and holding B could charge a fire blast... or, another idea could be to mae it so that if you wait long enough before using it, like when you have to let it recharge when his breath runs out, it can work like wario's old waft or rob's lazer so it shoots a stringer fireball if you wait long enough between firebreaths...?
charizard could get ember as a neutral B tapping move, like fox/captain falcon's old jab combo, and holding B could charge a fire blast... or, another idea could be to mae it so that if you wait long enough before using it, like when you have to let it recharge when his breath runs out, it can work like wario's old waft or rob's lazer so it shoots a stringer fireball if you wait long enough between firebreaths...?
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
A few more suggestions from me:
- General -
The following Project M code makes footstool jumps trigger via up taunt, instead of jump.
Footstool Up-Taunt
04FAA8D8 00000006
04FAA8B8 00000001
Could a variation of that code be used so that footstools can be triggered via jump AND up taunt?
- Luigi -
I suggest making Luigi's secret taunt cancelable. Or make the fireworks it emits do damage. As-is, Luigi rarely gets the chance to complete the full animation before he gets punished or the match ends. Ideally, I'd like to see semi-useful secret taunts on all characters.
- Sonic -
Please remove Sonic's Side B's ability to destroy destructible level elements instantly. Whenever he plays on a level like Green Hill Zone, Luigi's Mansion, or Shadow Moses, Sonic has the option to quickly remove the unique elements of those stages. It's annoying.
- Wario -
I've been playing Wario more lately, and while he's not as bad as I thought initially, I'd still like to see his moveset revamped. Sure, Project M already used his most iconic moves from the Wario Land games, but that's no reason for Minus not to make their own versions of them! Wario has always been a crude character, but farts were never even a minor part of his move pool in his games; the farting was added in Brawl first, and then Minus made passing gas his main gimmick. It was somewhat funny for a while, but now Wario has become a joke, and few people want to play as "that character who just farts a lot". That saddens me as a Wario fan. I know Thunda-Moo said the team already tried to think of new moves to use from his games... I'm asking them to take one more look. At the very least, please make Wario's bike more useful offensively. I would like it better if it were easier to jump off of and use an aerial attack from...
- Zelda / Sheik -
A friend of mine suggests that Transform be moved to a taunt, freeing up Down B for a new move.
A few more suggestions from me:
- General -
The following Project M code makes footstool jumps trigger via up taunt, instead of jump.
Footstool Up-Taunt
04FAA8D8 00000006
04FAA8B8 00000001
Could a variation of that code be used so that footstools can be triggered via jump AND up taunt?
- Luigi -
I suggest making Luigi's secret taunt cancelable. Or make the fireworks it emits do damage. As-is, Luigi rarely gets the chance to complete the full animation before he gets punished or the match ends. Ideally, I'd like to see semi-useful secret taunts on all characters.
- Sonic -
Please remove Sonic's Side B's ability to destroy destructible level elements instantly. Whenever he plays on a level like Green Hill Zone, Luigi's Mansion, or Shadow Moses, Sonic has the option to quickly remove the unique elements of those stages. It's annoying.
- Wario -
I've been playing Wario more lately, and while he's not as bad as I thought initially, I'd still like to see his moveset revamped. Sure, Project M already used his most iconic moves from the Wario Land games, but that's no reason for Minus not to make their own versions of them! Wario has always been a crude character, but farts were never even a minor part of his move pool in his games; the farting was added in Brawl first, and then Minus made passing gas his main gimmick. It was somewhat funny for a while, but now Wario has become a joke, and few people want to play as "that character who just farts a lot". That saddens me as a Wario fan. I know Thunda-Moo said the team already tried to think of new moves to use from his games... I'm asking them to take one more look. At the very least, please make Wario's bike more useful offensively. I would like it better if it were easier to jump off of and use an aerial attack from...
- Zelda / Sheik -
A friend of mine suggests that Transform be moved to a taunt, freeing up Down B for a new move.
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
Really liking Lucario now. Sheik also feels pretty great. The transform cancel on Zelda and Sheik are both really welcomed and seem like they could be used in a mindgamey fashion. TL feels much better now that his arrows connect how they should. Also, might this thread be renamed to Suggestions/Feedback etc...?
Really liking Lucario now. Sheik also feels pretty great. The transform cancel on Zelda and Sheik are both really welcomed and seem like they could be used in a mindgamey fashion. TL feels much better now that his arrows connect how they should. Also, might this thread be renamed to Suggestions/Feedback etc...?
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
I sorta sympathize with you regarding wario bent, but quite frankly, his current moveset works very well. I don't know why farts are the gimmick here with wario. Maybe it is because he comes off as very gross and crude in brawl, even in the story mode. It would be nice if he were more properly representing wario land, but I'd rather not loose a functional and good moveset in favor of one that may turn out weaker. Look at samus. Trying to go off metroid has so far made her worse then 2.6.
I sorta sympathize with you regarding wario bent, but quite frankly, his current moveset works very well. I don't know why farts are the gimmick here with wario. Maybe it is because he comes off as very gross and crude in brawl, even in the story mode. It would be nice if he were more properly representing wario land, but I'd rather not loose a functional and good moveset in favor of one that may turn out weaker. Look at samus. Trying to go off metroid has so far made her worse then 2.6.
Smilindeth
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
Here's a thought for Samus. Could be broken, but if the old bombs were returned, potentially let her bomb jump back up to the stage and Spider Ball onto the bottom via pressing shield or something (probably for a limited time). Could be initiated from the stage too, open up some possibilities for ledge and platform game-play.
Here's a thought for Samus. Could be broken, but if the old bombs were returned, potentially let her bomb jump back up to the stage and Spider Ball onto the bottom via pressing shield or something (probably for a limited time). Could be initiated from the stage too, open up some possibilities for ledge and platform game-play.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
^ It would be cool if Samus's Spider Ball could be implemented somehow. More than that, though, I'd like to see her given access to more beam types from her games. Also, isn't she the only character with a charging Neutral-B who can't charge it in the air? She should be able to charge it in midair! I'd love to see the Speed Booster / Shine Spark move implemented too. Build up speed -> crouch -> have a charge for a few seconds, if you jump while charged you blast off straight up or at an angle with high speed and knockback.
Suggestions for Link:
Remove the ability to jump-cancel the Finishing Blow, OR widen the input window so that we can use the jump-cancel reliably; as it is, I just end up unintentionally canceling it into the Bow or an aerial at random.
Is there no hitbox on a Finishing Blow flying off the stage? If there is one, it's way too small! I've tried hitting offstage opponents with a flying Finishing Blow, but Link's sword just clips right through them with no effect. Also, human opponents almost always get out of a successfully landed Finishing Blow before the final "pulling sword out of the ground" hitbox comes out. The Finishing Blow isn't really worth using as-is... Does anyone disagree?
Suggestions for Link:
Remove the ability to jump-cancel the Finishing Blow, OR widen the input window so that we can use the jump-cancel reliably; as it is, I just end up unintentionally canceling it into the Bow or an aerial at random.
Is there no hitbox on a Finishing Blow flying off the stage? If there is one, it's way too small! I've tried hitting offstage opponents with a flying Finishing Blow, but Link's sword just clips right through them with no effect. Also, human opponents almost always get out of a successfully landed Finishing Blow before the final "pulling sword out of the ground" hitbox comes out. The Finishing Blow isn't really worth using as-is... Does anyone disagree?
justadood
Just a dood with ideas
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
i thought the finishing blow should have been a forward throw to begin with :/ we could have just made the down air, which already looks like the finishing blow, able to hit grounded foes easier, then the forward throw could have a special input in order to use finishing blow, but i didn't really need it as a seperate move... another idea is to give the dash short hop more horizontal momentum and make the forward air do an over head slice if A is pressed and the helm splitter if held, then short hopping out of a dash could connect to the fiishing blow down air, the jump attack (not to be confused with the jumping strike), or the helm splitter if you jump high enough for it... there was another page for link to have a helm splitter, and it just occurred to me that these could be combined to have the same kind of input, and since the finishing blow animation could already be used this way in the air, so why not change the input?.. i know it's a lot different than what you guys are talking about, but this way, you could control the distance this move covers, as well as use it while leaping off a ledge to punish people trying to recover.... one thing i was going to say about the helm splitter being the forward air (hold A) was that it could give some momentum diagonally forward and can be used immediately after leaving the ground to get foes like kirby, or at the height of the jump to catch taller foes like ganondorf, and also be used as a recovery thanks to its forward momentum, but maybe have endlag so it isn't as helpful as samus's.... anyway, these are just ideas that incorporate what i've heard people would like, and using methods that feel like they were straight from their original game... for instance in zelda games, the jump attack could be used after leaping off a ledge, the helm splitter is used AFTER he already leaps up and over his opponents head, and although the finishing blow automatically makes you jump at the opponent (and to be fair, so does the helm splitter), the finishing blow being an aerial attack has been in every super smash bros game, and this input is definitely usable and feels natural to the game...
i thought the finishing blow should have been a forward throw to begin with :/ we could have just made the down air, which already looks like the finishing blow, able to hit grounded foes easier, then the forward throw could have a special input in order to use finishing blow, but i didn't really need it as a seperate move... another idea is to give the dash short hop more horizontal momentum and make the forward air do an over head slice if A is pressed and the helm splitter if held, then short hopping out of a dash could connect to the fiishing blow down air, the jump attack (not to be confused with the jumping strike), or the helm splitter if you jump high enough for it... there was another page for link to have a helm splitter, and it just occurred to me that these could be combined to have the same kind of input, and since the finishing blow animation could already be used this way in the air, so why not change the input?.. i know it's a lot different than what you guys are talking about, but this way, you could control the distance this move covers, as well as use it while leaping off a ledge to punish people trying to recover.... one thing i was going to say about the helm splitter being the forward air (hold A) was that it could give some momentum diagonally forward and can be used immediately after leaving the ground to get foes like kirby, or at the height of the jump to catch taller foes like ganondorf, and also be used as a recovery thanks to its forward momentum, but maybe have endlag so it isn't as helpful as samus's.... anyway, these are just ideas that incorporate what i've heard people would like, and using methods that feel like they were straight from their original game... for instance in zelda games, the jump attack could be used after leaping off a ledge, the helm splitter is used AFTER he already leaps up and over his opponents head, and although the finishing blow automatically makes you jump at the opponent (and to be fair, so does the helm splitter), the finishing blow being an aerial attack has been in every super smash bros game, and this input is definitely usable and feels natural to the game...
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Re: Suggestions for Brawl Minus MAX 3.1
This was probably best kept in the thread. This is more of a thread for suggestions, not discussions. I mean, I mostly don't want to start having the same discussion in two different threads.
Everyone, please respond to this at the metal Mario thread, if you have a voice in the matter.
This was probably best kept in the thread. This is more of a thread for suggestions, not discussions. I mean, I mostly don't want to start having the same discussion in two different threads.
Everyone, please respond to this at the metal Mario thread, if you have a voice in the matter.