An Open Letter to Pin Clock

[Gold_TSG]

My god Sammi go to bed.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Glyph said 3 jump ROB was balanced. Nuff said.

BAHAHAHA. "Nuff said" killed me.

My god Sammi go to bed.

I KNOW RIGHT? IMMA OUTA HEERRE. Goodnight everyone. Stay tuned for some cool stuff regarding PR. I have a few things planned that just might make everyone very happy stay tunnnneeedd~!

 

[NEWB]

Everyone go to bed! I'm on my iPad you jerks! You givin me eye cancer with these long posts.

 

[Kien]

I refuse to be made happy, because I'm an edgy bastard who likes to victimize people and paint a deceptive picture.

 

[Valravn]

Thank Kien for the Ganon changes... ...Anyways, the Ganon uTilt and dSmash are already being reverted

Thanks Kien! ...Thanks Pin! I was definitely glad to read that in the changelog.

Wonderful thing about beta changelogs is they're beta. We're actually already discussing various ways to buff this Boost, as we determined a 1:1 of Palutena's Super Speed is a little too weak for Sanic since he and Palutena are still different characters.

Oh, I know. I'm apprehensive about it because I really love playing the current Sonic build, but without actually playing 4.0 I don't know whether I'll like it or not. I'm torn partway between 'I'll wait and see' and 'It's the end-times for Sanic', but that's the dramatic in me.

This is actually more of a personal thing that has to do with me as "leader". Basically, with every post I make, I feel as if I'm not only representing myself, but representing the game and the development team as a whole.

I didn't really think of it that way. I should have.

I have a few ideas regarding more publicity. It may even be in the best interest to recruit a dedicated writer to the team to handle PR on our relevant social media.

Hey, I'll be available in a few months when I finish my degree! I could probably even do some stuff before then. I don't always show it, but I've done a lot of formal writing in college. I think I could handle it.

EDIT: Kien, that post was so bleeding edgy I didn't even see it until after I made this one. Hi Kien!

 

[justadood]

it's two o'clock almost threeeee... and i'm still trying to catch up on the whole argument... but you guys saying things like "cole magarth is a terrible idea" is really rude -_- the community looks at a game like smash bros as a sandbox crossover fighter that the dev team can add many characters too... granted, it may be annoying to turn this into mugen with shitty unknown characters like a killer whale or the flail knight guy from zelda, it's still not a bad idea to try to expand on the already existing franchises... for instance, on that same page, there are tens of original and viable character ideas that would be awesome to see in the game... i put links to already made versions of suggested characters, like a shadow moveset and waluigi, but a LOT of really hard work went into typing out those movesets, and a lot of different people had very original ideas on there...

also, really? cole magarth is a terrible idea and pichu is a good one? -_- first off the pikachu in brawl is assumed to be that pichu from melee evolved... the evidence is in it's blue costume still having goggles, its green having the scarf, and its FS being volt tackle, which only a high level pichu can learn... .... .... and really? PICHU? :/ did you just do that so PM wouldn't get him first?..

 

[Kien]

Because staying quiet isn't my style...

I have to point out that there was an ed in the statement about me never wishing to speak to you again. As in, I intended to rejoin and simply do what needed to be done without directly communicating with you as a way to avoid conflict.

Anyway... all I can hope, is that my actions over this past week haven't been for nothing. I guess only time will tell, even if I'm not to be a part of it.

 

[thanyou]

I don't like the direction minus has been heading recently. I miss how fun minus used to be when it everything was silly and it all just felt right.

After personally being in the BR for a number of months now, and seeing what happens under Pin's leadership I can't help but feel that Kien's claims hold truth. Of course the two have their heated debates, but what kept really happening is that Pin (and Sammi) would shoot down Kien's (and Gold's, too) ideas no matter how solid the arguments were. Pin would have the final say and it would go through, and look where that has taken minus...

We have a chance right now to demand change for minus in a.... positive direction, and Kien has brought to light some important facts that questions Pin's leadership, so we as a community need to objectively judge the actions Pin has done.

I may not be the active community member I was at the outset of minus, but I will come back to do what needs to be done for the good of minus.

 

[Mawootad]

it's two o'clock almost threeeee... and i'm still trying to catch up on the whole argument... but you guys saying things like "cole magarth is a terrible idea" is really rude -_- the community looks at a game like smash bros as a sandbox crossover fighter that the dev team can add many characters too... granted, it may be annoying to turn this into mugen with shitty unknown characters like a killer whale or the flail knight guy from zelda, it's still not a bad idea to try to expand on the already existing franchises... for instance, on that same page, there are tens of original and viable character ideas that would be awesome to see in the game... i put links to already made versions of suggested characters, like a shadow moveset and waluigi, but a LOT of really hard work went into typing out those movesets, and a lot of different people had very original ideas on there...

also, really? cole magarth is a terrible idea and pichu is a good one? -_- first off the pikachu in brawl is assumed to be that pichu from melee evolved... the evidence is in it's blue costume still having goggles, its green having the scarf, and its FS being volt tackle, which only a high level pichu can learn... .... .... and really? PICHU? :/ did you just do that so PM wouldn't get him first?..

The reason we don't add a bunch of fighters is cause it takes forever. We need a model and a brawlex module to port over. The entire move set has to be buffed and balanced and the entire moveset and play style has to be designed from the ground up (and we might not have any PSA coders willing to do a full character psa who are very familiar with the fighter and also are decent at making characters with that playstyle). We might need to fix animations and write asm for the fighter. The fighter needs art resources and we need to do a re-render of the start screen. There's the aesthetic work with placing all of the right gfx and sfx in the right places at the right time. And of course most important, the character better be near silent cause until someone figures out how to rebuild sound files we have to use boss sound files, and let me tell you the number of sfx available falls off pretty drastically pretty fast. If you'd like to solve all of these issues and provide us a good, minus Cole Magarth (not using sounds over the any of the three bosses with the most sounds) fully meeting our quality standards I will personally do my best to see that Cole is added to minus.

Also, Pichu is actually good as of the current 4.0 build and a blast to play.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

God I don't even know where I stand anymore on the topic of whether or not Pin should leave.

 

[Neville]

Eve. Though Pin might not be removed, I'm very happy that information about the br and it's future plans are being revealed and change seems to be around the corner anyway.

 

[Fivavoa]

i've been on the offensive as many of you know about pin's leadership/decision making but after looking further into this i've ended up concluding that this is all a waste of time and everyone who's advocating one thing doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about anymore

like it's almost funny how many times i've seen the main idea of this go off the charts, and with evidence from kien himself even he's caught up in this large delusion about what is and isn't right.

this isn't about leadership, this isn't about the team, this isn't about the community, the only thing i've heard from literally everyone is that they're always the ones who know better, doesn't matter who it is but it's always them that should get the final say just because they have more knowledge in the matter
excuse me but what?!
i mean fuck the idea of thinking together or doing anything as a team, even if one is a specialist at something doesn't mean that they are the law for that subject matter. i don't understand the point of keeping this unnecessary "pride" for something so damn trivial like "link isn't strong enough " "ganondorf can't fly "

it almost kinda amazes me how far this escalated just because of some disagreements with characters
that's literally it
is it really that difficult to understand that the concept of a team is that everyone involved makes everyone involved in the product they're making, despite specialists only "knowing" how to do one thing better? everything that i've read so far about how all this stuff functions just completely neglects one aspect over another, and vice versa. if it isn't arrogance over yourself over the rest of the team, it's focusing on the product over the people. nothing about all the information in this thread makes sense anymore, arguments became skewed, everyone has horrible decisions, and to top it all off what's important gets overshadowed about discussion over very specific things about characters in minus.

like what's the point of arguing anymore? minus still takes itself too seriously, tries too hard to be cool like p:m despite not needing to, and worse of all apparently people's idealisms of fairness when developing something stems from arrogance.

i'm just gonna go back to lurking.

 

[The Concept]

The reason we don't add a bunch of fighters is cause it takes forever. We need a model and a brawlex module to port over. The entire move set has to be buffed and balanced and the entire moveset and play style has to be designed from the ground up (and we might not have any PSA coders willing to do a full character psa who are very familiar with the fighter and also are decent at making characters with that playstyle). We might need to fix animations and write asm for the fighter. The fighter needs art resources and we need to do a re-render of the start screen. There's the aesthetic work with placing all of the right gfx and sfx in the right places at the right time. And of course most important, the character better be near silent cause until someone figures out how to rebuild sound files we have to use boss sound files, and let me tell you the number of sfx available falls off pretty drastically pretty fast. .

I have appeared.
On this I have to concur. Adding many characters and attempting to make them work with my custom build, and I don't even PSA(due to time), was copious amounts of work. Of course even this work was not completely polished, as they were not balanced for minus, and some didn't have cosmetics. This adding characters business is not easy, and takes much time and effort. I can only speak about trying to do it with pre-made PSAs, I can't imagine trying to do one from scratch.

Also, in reference to everything else, the truth is a funny thing. That is all.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Hai gaiz did I miss anythi--

ok I'll leave you gaiz alone. [leaves]

 

[Pin Clock]

I have to point out that there was an ed in the statement about me never wishing to speak to you again. As in, I intended to rejoin and simply do what needed to be done without directly communicating with you as a way to avoid conflict.

This is probably the only time that I'm going to quote you directly in this thread, but I would like to point out that avoiding to have to speak with a specific person on the team, notably someone like myself who leads the project, is a major conflict in and of itself, and shows that despite you talking a lot about compromise and wanting to work with others, only shows interests in the exact opposite.

It's like mentioning to the interviewer at a job interview that you want the job, but you never want to speak to them again. Makes no sense.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

This is probably the only time that I'm going to quote you directly in this thread, but I would like to point out that avoiding to have to speak with a specific person on the team, notably someone like myself who leads the project, is a major conflict in and of itself, and shows that despite you talking a lot about compromise and wanting to work with others, only shows interests in the exact opposite.

Sorry Kien, but Pin is right. It's like an employee trying to get a job and saying, "I want the job but I don't want to speak to the boss". You just can't do that. It would make nothing be done.

 

[Pin Clock]

Sorry Kien, but Pin is right. It's like an employee trying to get a job and saying, "I want the job but I don't want to speak to the boss". You just can't do that. It would make nothing be done.

asdf I just finished adding the exact same metaphor to my post!

Crazy world, huh?

 

[Greatest_Aether]

asdf I just finished adding the exact same metaphor to my post!

Crazy world, huh?

I didn't see that when I was typing XD

 

[Pin Clock]

I didn't see that when I was typing XD

I added it into my post after I made it, but a few seconds before you posted yours

This stuff is pretty funny when it happens though

 

[Sammi-husky]

Of course the two have their heated debates, but what kept really happening is that Pin (and Sammi) would shoot down Kien's (and Gold's, too) ideas no matter how solid the arguments were.

How sound their arguments were are entirely subjective, and either the majority or an equal party of both sides supported or disagreed. If the BR vote comes to a stalemate, the change cannot be made. To clarify, that would be like "Hey guys, should we remove Ike?" >equal number of for and against< "Well! It's a draw! that means we go with making the change!". Changes cannot and will not be made if the BR cannot agree on a course of action. Furthermore, we TESTED the majority of the ideas that were brought up, and if we did not test them, we made it clear that if someone produces them, we will test them. The only thing i can think of that pin or i ever shot down fairly early was the idea of giving everyone super moves / ult moves, and there was a stalemate in the voting even after we discussed it for at least a few hours.

Pin would have the final say and it would go through, and look where that has taken minus...

Keep in mind that many, many of the changes that have been made during this period are a result of compromising with the other members, so that both parties are happy, even if not fully. It's not as you depict it, like pin just gets his way and that's why minus is the way it is. Minus is the way it is as a direct consequence of the influence that all members have had. Both parties in question are equally to blame for where minus has been taken, not just pin.

I don't like the direction minus has been heading recently. I miss how fun minus used to be when it everything was silly and it all just felt right.

We, for quite some time, have been wanting desperately to bring back that aspect. However, since the BR can't agree on who is balanced anymore; between my occasional nerfs, and kien's frequent nerfs, pin (as i said earlier, which caused me to become quite irritated at him in the past) would often disregard many nerfs initially, because we had been nerfing for a few updates straight and that made it feel like minus' overall power level, and charm, was disappearing in favor of this so-called "Balance". I do not blame him for shooting down nerfs intially with how much dislike we were receiving about it from the community about it. And to continue, most of the nerf discussions ended civilly with a compromise. I/someone else would get the nerf we wanted, and we would buff a character outright in other areas. Of course im not saying that was always the case, but my main point here is that pin has really stressed the interest of returning the power and sillyness to minus for....a very long time now. Since a little after the valentines day patch.

And of course, to end this post off; people should also keep in mind that at any time if there is a majority vote against pin even by just one vote, we have always gone with the majority vote. I have been one of the few who has actually won that battle with pin, and as soon as the vote came back with my side being the majority, pin stepped down and said "I still disagree, and don't think it's a good idea at all, but if the majority of the members here think otherwise than we'll go with <insertDecisionHere>". Pin is also aware of his tendency to shoot down ideas too quickly, and we have discussed it (though you can see it in those screenshots i posted, we did continue it for longer). Pin has been trying to work on it for quite some time, and i have seen the change over time. Im sorry i can't show or prove why i feel this way, but please understand that regardless of side; we all have minus' best interest at heart, including pin and kien. Though our opinions on that matter may vary, nobody is acting out of negligence.

 

[Kien]

like it's almost funny how many times i've seen the main idea of this go off the charts, and with evidence from kien himself even he's caught up in this large delusion about what is and isn't right.

this isn't about leadership, this isn't about the team, this isn't about the community, the only thing i've heard from literally everyone is that they're always the ones who know better, doesn't matter who it is but it's always them that should get the final say just because they have more knowledge in the matter
excuse me but what?!
i mean fuck the idea of thinking together or doing anything as a team, even if one is a specialist at something doesn't mean that they are the law for that subject matter. i don't understand the point of keeping this unnecessary "pride" for something so damn trivial like "link isn't strong enough " "ganondorf can't fly "

it almost kinda amazes me how far this escalated just because of some disagreements with characters
that's literally it
like what's the point of arguing anymore? minus still takes itself too seriously, tries too hard to be cool like p:m despite not needing to, and worse of all apparently people's idealisms of fairness when developing something stems from arrogance.

i'm just gonna go back to lurking.

What Fiva? I really wish I knew how you managed to get this out of what I stated. My saying what was "right" was that Minus needs to have a more democratic BR, and to listen to the community more often. That making a more balanced and enjoyable game would need things like 0 death combos removed, and to trying to have half the stage roster as competitive and stale. I never set this in stone. There are no absolutes. Our disagreements came from overall balance issues, and though you were citing examples, I don't think there was ever much argued about a character who we thought was too weak... It's also never been out of pride, but out of experience. Much more than character disagreements. We've talked stages, mechanics, and various other things.

The point of this was never to argue. The point of this was to make a stand for change. The things that you feel about Minus trying too hard, taking itself too seriously are things that I want to change. The idealism of fairness is something that I intended to be spread among multiple people and agreed upon, thus the more democratic BR that I was wanting to go for.

 

[Neville]

I don't care if Pin leaves anymore but I do want to see a change in the way the br is run or how it interacts with non-backroomers in the future. The ideology of "backroom discussions should stay in the br" doesn't sit well with me. I feel like, if you guys vote on something and it's a tie or it's close enough to give you guys doubts, you guys should come to the community for ideas. If the idea is positive, you guys should try and implement it and if it doesn't work say it doesn't and explain why. You guys should also have a community manager who isn't on the dev team because I don't think it's fair that Pin should censor watch what he says.

 

[justadood]

COMMUNITY MANAGER

 

[justadood]

that's actually a great idea
have reps for the community that the community actually gets to vote on, but make the nominee someone from the dev team
maybe even have a few reps who get to hold the votes: one for stage builders in the team, one for the character builders in the team, one for the stage ideas in the community, one for the character ideas in the community

 

[Kien]

I tried to be like a community manager and got hell for it. Look at me now, nearly banned from the website for harassment. People sure are scared to come out and say things to the faces of others, aren't they? If someone was harassing me I'd be like, dude... your best interest would be in leaving me alone.