An Open Letter to Pin Clock
- Thread starter Kien
- Start date
It's more that you and pin have argued and spat at each other so much, that when either of you complain about each other it seems more like just trying to slander eachother. Previous experiences make a big difference. BUT i digress, i'm not trying to speak on pin's behalf lol.
AeroIncarnated
The Only Hero
Wow all these high quality arguments never before seen in Minus history. After reading everything of like everything in the PM and this thread. I can say without a doubt that you guys make really damn good arguments. Like really good. I heard about this weeks ago and still decided to be neutral about it because y'know why should I care. I make textures. But after seeing all this I can finally give my opinion. Despite how casual I am and how little I care about nerfs or buffs.
I been talking to Kien for awhile now he's pretty alright guy. Not Sprite Overload quality mind you but he's pretty alright and I already know that Pin and Kien argue a lot. Everything else in the backroom I didn't know about. You guys really don't sound stable to me honestly. That's probably insulting but I can't say it any nicer. Leaving because of nerf to luigi? 35% ftilt from link? Fast quick draw because of lore? That's silly. It's nice that you're passionate about it but, if you're gonna leave because of it you're just silly. Plus Pin isn't it kinda your job to keep things stable and maintain things. Aren't you supposed to stop things like this from happening.
To let you guys know my stance on minus I played the most recent one and I liked it fine and I played Kien's build and I liked that too. I played zeus and older builds of minus and honestly have no preference. I hold absolutely no love towards the changes I just like to play. So either way I don't care if Pin leaves or stays. Only thing I hated in minus was the CSS and the CSPs. Pin you seem like a pretty alright guy as well but, I really really don't like your art. Maybe I just don't understand it something.
However, I must say you guys are all handling this situation quite well for what it is. It's no where near as cringy as I expected it to be and everyone has stated really nice things that make the mind think. I must say Pin you handled this quite well I honestly can't tell if this bothers you in the slightest. I also agree that this is much unneeded drama. Ironically I mentioned it to kien myself awhile backthat it was a bit dramatic which it was. Hell his first post on this thread was also dramatic. Which is alright I guess. Me personally I want Minus to be brought in a good light. This just looks bad just like the shitty CSS.(Sorry I really hate that CSS) We have two backroom members publicly arguing about who should be the project leader and such. Just seems like something that should of been handled properly and privately. All of this and this message didn't have to happen.
Overall, at this moment in time I don't think either of you should be project leader. Just because of the fact I simply don't think you guys are capable of it to do it effectively. Like Pin this whole thread and the people saying they left because of you doesn't make you look good. You probably already know that. And Kien from talking to you personally for months I can openly declare that you are NOT a people person. You do NOT have charisma coming out your ass.
In Summary, I believe these guys are both cool and stuffs but neither should be project leader. Sorry for my long post. I probably sound like I don't know what i'm talking about but it is what it is. Maybe I should of stayed in my little Sprite Zone where I belong but, I had to say something. Anyways back to the Sprite Dimension I go.
I been talking to Kien for awhile now he's pretty alright guy. Not Sprite Overload quality mind you but he's pretty alright and I already know that Pin and Kien argue a lot. Everything else in the backroom I didn't know about. You guys really don't sound stable to me honestly. That's probably insulting but I can't say it any nicer. Leaving because of nerf to luigi? 35% ftilt from link? Fast quick draw because of lore? That's silly. It's nice that you're passionate about it but, if you're gonna leave because of it you're just silly. Plus Pin isn't it kinda your job to keep things stable and maintain things. Aren't you supposed to stop things like this from happening.
To let you guys know my stance on minus I played the most recent one and I liked it fine and I played Kien's build and I liked that too. I played zeus and older builds of minus and honestly have no preference. I hold absolutely no love towards the changes I just like to play. So either way I don't care if Pin leaves or stays. Only thing I hated in minus was the CSS and the CSPs. Pin you seem like a pretty alright guy as well but, I really really don't like your art. Maybe I just don't understand it something.
However, I must say you guys are all handling this situation quite well for what it is. It's no where near as cringy as I expected it to be and everyone has stated really nice things that make the mind think. I must say Pin you handled this quite well I honestly can't tell if this bothers you in the slightest. I also agree that this is much unneeded drama. Ironically I mentioned it to kien myself awhile backthat it was a bit dramatic which it was. Hell his first post on this thread was also dramatic. Which is alright I guess. Me personally I want Minus to be brought in a good light. This just looks bad just like the shitty CSS.(Sorry I really hate that CSS) We have two backroom members publicly arguing about who should be the project leader and such. Just seems like something that should of been handled properly and privately. All of this and this message didn't have to happen.
Overall, at this moment in time I don't think either of you should be project leader. Just because of the fact I simply don't think you guys are capable of it to do it effectively. Like Pin this whole thread and the people saying they left because of you doesn't make you look good. You probably already know that. And Kien from talking to you personally for months I can openly declare that you are NOT a people person. You do NOT have charisma coming out your ass.
In Summary, I believe these guys are both cool and stuffs but neither should be project leader. Sorry for my long post. I probably sound like I don't know what i'm talking about but it is what it is. Maybe I should of stayed in my little Sprite Zone where I belong but, I had to say something. Anyways back to the Sprite Dimension I go.
We do too, we do too.
The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
My original question was whether or not this thread has solved any issues or cleared up any confusion, or has it done the opposite.
Sammi's response was adequate.
Kienamaru, we've discussed my stance, but still, I don't remember me giving you an answer. Therefore, I'll reiterate:
Sammi's response was adequate.
Kienamaru, we've discussed my stance, but still, I don't remember me giving you an answer. Therefore, I'll reiterate:
My stance on this is not one sided. As I spend my days studying people, I know that some people have difficulties getting along. However, I do know that mutual respect tends to make disagreements much smoother, something which seems to be lacking between you and Pin Clock. I don't have much data on the interactions between you and Pin Clock, however I think the two of you should start there. No matter what your past was, the two of you are capable, respectable human beings who know how to treat each other right. Act like it.
Now, if my last statement is incorrect, then and only then should one consider stepping down or stepping out. That is my stance.
In summary: Kien, we've spoken enough that I believe I can call you "friend", and as a friend I say that you've been mistreated. At the same time, you've thrown your share of mistreatment as well. The two of you are rather involved members of this mod, and for any of you to go, might not make anything better. Instead of running away from your problems, Kienamaru and Pin Clock, by stepping down or leaving the BR, try to work through it first.
Now, if my last statement is incorrect, then and only then should one consider stepping down or stepping out. That is my stance.
In summary: Kien, we've spoken enough that I believe I can call you "friend", and as a friend I say that you've been mistreated. At the same time, you've thrown your share of mistreatment as well. The two of you are rather involved members of this mod, and for any of you to go, might not make anything better. Instead of running away from your problems, Kienamaru and Pin Clock, by stepping down or leaving the BR, try to work through it first.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
^^^this
The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
Well, now...due to this....tender situation, you should now have more information on your interactions. How each side understood their interactions, each sides' intentions. If you care about this mod as much as I believe the two of you do, it'll be worth trying again, with this new knowledge.
aero is probably the only person who took the situation into perspective for once instead of derail about something completely irrelevant, give this man a round of applause, ESPECIALLY for clarifying that i'm not the only one who despises the css
my whole interpretation of this situation initially was that pin had some kind of horrid misguided interpretation of how to respond to people, saying ridiculous over-the-top shit to kien like some kind of cartoon super villain. and although kien's arguments weren't the most stable, i thought there was some kind of brutal dictatorship.
apparently everybody is confused, and in the end still would much rather discuss only very small, irrelevant specific things about a video game instead of pursuing the situation as some kind of really serious group issue. most of the time when people discuss this sort of thing, personal and emotional things come into play, and relationships can get severed. and despite it being obvious that there is enough friction from literally the entirety of the BR just to get upset over some free unpaid project they're supposed to be doing for fun mind you, it kinda lessens the seriousness and impact of this topic. especially when br members on both sides go out and say in general their reasonings for friction is having more "experience" therefore offering the idea as a team, as a whole entire group mind, is just some kind of joke
i completely agree with aero here, none of the sides seem to have definitive or justified reasons for their behavior, and while they do have good arguments, it still all boils down to pointless debacle in the end. he brings a good point, neither of you are stable enough to handle a leadership position, pin for somehow managing to get heated arguments over simple character balanced from a non-profit hack of a 2008 game, and kien for really trying to justify quibbles to an extremity over said hack
this is all very silly, if this is how it commonly is in the BR then something severely does need changing and it certainly isn't the person in charge's fault
it doesn't sound healthy that such topics have to get called upon into the public and let it spread so ridiculously, if there's a fault here is that the scarceness of presence from the developers that allowed such crazy imagination from all angles to spread so easily like this. i understand you are planning to change that, but this shouldn't have been an issue to begin with, otherwise a lot of conflict could have been avoided.
i have no serious issues with either of you guys, kien is a really great and enjoyable guy and pin sounds genuinely fun, but when it comes down to it, you guys are trying to get something out of nothing and really pushing how far you guys believe this will bring relevancy to the community. knowing what's best isn't guessing and assuming by logic and estimation, it's by gathering and collecting from real experience and connection, ESPECIALLY when you're clinging to such a small community, and from the lack of presence here it seems like there's a severe dissonance of that the entire br doesn't seem to have. nobody is making any sense of the emotional connection and suggestion that this topic is supposed to be concentrated about because people are too preoccupied by the product to care about the condition of those supplying it
i'd highly suggest finding some kind of equilibrium of some sorts between you all, it really does sound like you guys are misguided on what makes a team effort a TEAM EFFORT. i love the concept of minus, i really enjoy the effort put into this, but when legitimate ARGUMENTS stem from something that's supposed to be fun.. then that's a serious mental issue you guys really need to work on yourselves. obviously disagreements can and will exist, but they should never escalate to what it has become as of right now, and that goes for everyone in the br. not just kien and pin.
you guys need to connect more fluidly with your community, despite what p:m does, it barely works for you guys especially as is
if this is all that it takes for drama to happen, then there needs to be serious revisions over how all this is interpreted. this is all very small on the scale of "drama" and the fact that it even became "drama" is baffling. maybe show up more to online matches, show up in a chat, commonly talk with people, get comfortable with your community. if not, you get wild exaggerations from imaginations that don't even KNOW where to start with at all, and that's a horrible place for something to be.
all these words aside, i hope you consider all this very seriously. it isn't about "the state of how things should be balanced" or "what a few people think minus SHOULD be" or "who said what and why what they said is ridiculous to me" it's a collaborative problem, and together you all need to resolve it. i don't mean to sound like some kind of stupid saturday morning cartoon with their "work together to solve everything!" morals, but when push comes to shove, this is what you guys need. this isn't about minus, it never was, it was about attitude, and how you respond to things. even if things get heated, it should never EVER come down to cussing each other out, and making one feel emotionally distressed from something that was supposed to be a fun and passionate project in the first place.
my whole interpretation of this situation initially was that pin had some kind of horrid misguided interpretation of how to respond to people, saying ridiculous over-the-top shit to kien like some kind of cartoon super villain. and although kien's arguments weren't the most stable, i thought there was some kind of brutal dictatorship.
apparently everybody is confused, and in the end still would much rather discuss only very small, irrelevant specific things about a video game instead of pursuing the situation as some kind of really serious group issue. most of the time when people discuss this sort of thing, personal and emotional things come into play, and relationships can get severed. and despite it being obvious that there is enough friction from literally the entirety of the BR just to get upset over some free unpaid project they're supposed to be doing for fun mind you, it kinda lessens the seriousness and impact of this topic. especially when br members on both sides go out and say in general their reasonings for friction is having more "experience" therefore offering the idea as a team, as a whole entire group mind, is just some kind of joke
i completely agree with aero here, none of the sides seem to have definitive or justified reasons for their behavior, and while they do have good arguments, it still all boils down to pointless debacle in the end. he brings a good point, neither of you are stable enough to handle a leadership position, pin for somehow managing to get heated arguments over simple character balanced from a non-profit hack of a 2008 game, and kien for really trying to justify quibbles to an extremity over said hack
this is all very silly, if this is how it commonly is in the BR then something severely does need changing and it certainly isn't the person in charge's fault
it doesn't sound healthy that such topics have to get called upon into the public and let it spread so ridiculously, if there's a fault here is that the scarceness of presence from the developers that allowed such crazy imagination from all angles to spread so easily like this. i understand you are planning to change that, but this shouldn't have been an issue to begin with, otherwise a lot of conflict could have been avoided.
i have no serious issues with either of you guys, kien is a really great and enjoyable guy and pin sounds genuinely fun, but when it comes down to it, you guys are trying to get something out of nothing and really pushing how far you guys believe this will bring relevancy to the community. knowing what's best isn't guessing and assuming by logic and estimation, it's by gathering and collecting from real experience and connection, ESPECIALLY when you're clinging to such a small community, and from the lack of presence here it seems like there's a severe dissonance of that the entire br doesn't seem to have. nobody is making any sense of the emotional connection and suggestion that this topic is supposed to be concentrated about because people are too preoccupied by the product to care about the condition of those supplying it
i'd highly suggest finding some kind of equilibrium of some sorts between you all, it really does sound like you guys are misguided on what makes a team effort a TEAM EFFORT. i love the concept of minus, i really enjoy the effort put into this, but when legitimate ARGUMENTS stem from something that's supposed to be fun.. then that's a serious mental issue you guys really need to work on yourselves. obviously disagreements can and will exist, but they should never escalate to what it has become as of right now, and that goes for everyone in the br. not just kien and pin.
you guys need to connect more fluidly with your community, despite what p:m does, it barely works for you guys especially as is
if this is all that it takes for drama to happen, then there needs to be serious revisions over how all this is interpreted. this is all very small on the scale of "drama" and the fact that it even became "drama" is baffling. maybe show up more to online matches, show up in a chat, commonly talk with people, get comfortable with your community. if not, you get wild exaggerations from imaginations that don't even KNOW where to start with at all, and that's a horrible place for something to be.
all these words aside, i hope you consider all this very seriously. it isn't about "the state of how things should be balanced" or "what a few people think minus SHOULD be" or "who said what and why what they said is ridiculous to me" it's a collaborative problem, and together you all need to resolve it. i don't mean to sound like some kind of stupid saturday morning cartoon with their "work together to solve everything!" morals, but when push comes to shove, this is what you guys need. this isn't about minus, it never was, it was about attitude, and how you respond to things. even if things get heated, it should never EVER come down to cussing each other out, and making one feel emotionally distressed from something that was supposed to be a fun and passionate project in the first place.
The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
Well, when one feels habitually attacked, they result to such thinking.
When one feels attacked, they tend to retaliate.
The two of you would have to move past this. Now if the two of you are unwilling to cooperate....well, I'll just say I'd be very disappointed. Both sides need to change. Don't just point to the other person to change first.
As also a ex member of this BR and Mod, I agree on Kien's side. Not only has Pin shut down my opinions without a logical explanation. He also shut down fresh ideas of mine. I left and came back 3 times to the minus BR. I didn't rage quit, I left because things were just falling apart thanks to Pin's decisions.. The last time I joined was to help balance Minus. The small portion of BR that wanted balanced, were taken into a new BR. Here we talked about balancing and maybe trying to better minus. This wasn't even applied all because Minus advanced on with or without the patches needed. I'm asking Pin to step down to have a better leader and it doesn't specifically have to be Kien, but it has to be someone who has better direction, and willing to talk with their BR on why this isn't good or why this is good. A leader is someone who takes charge to better the situation, who is willing to experiment with new things. Who wants the community to be happy with every decision made. Creating a Mod for the people. As a ex brawl hacker in general I see alot of potential with Minus if someone can direct it. I was a expert coder who had the ability to better Minus, so maybe if someone with good attention steps up, I'll come help them again. I do want to see success for this mod.
Ex Member - OmegaS3
Ex Member - OmegaS3
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Well @Fivavoa , I still don't know how you keep managing to misinterpret that this isn't for the sake of bettering Minus. At least a little good has come out of it. The BR now sees that the community would like to have at least some insight to the game's development even if they can't create the largest impact on the end result. It's a shame that it does become a who said what, and did what to who situation, but the reality of it is just that. It all boils down to over a year small seemingly inconsequential and trivial situations being held over each other for use as ammo at a later time. It's been shown even here in this thread, and in the conversations that I posted from skype. I've tried to forgive, though I'll never forget. I will remember Reach.
Let's see if Pin is willing to do the same.
@Pin Clock No pressure though. Let's see where this goes, and don't be so willing to just say "Fuck this." and exit the conversation.
Let's see if Pin is willing to do the same.
@Pin Clock No pressure though. Let's see where this goes, and don't be so willing to just say "Fuck this." and exit the conversation.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I did a lot of thinking about this at work (instead of actually doing work. Best use of time), and I'm starting to question if this poll is even necessary anymore. From the looks of things, this thread has served more as a wake up call to everyone in the community and the BR. The community has finally decided to speak up instead of lurking in the shadows of the forum, and the BR seems to have come to terms with the fact that things haven't been handled properly for quite some time, leading to much distress amongst the team. This should be taken less as a "someone else should be in charge" and more as a "the BR needs to be less secretive with the fanbase." I understand quite a few people have had issues, some personal, but is this really the way it needs to continue? I was angry for a while myself, but deep in my gut, I feel that this wake up call will bring better change than we've seen for a long time.
That's my two cents on the matter at this point in time.
That's my two cents on the matter at this point in time.
AeroIncarnated
The Only Hero
AeroIncarnated reemerging from the Sprite Dimension. I must say though after letting this sit for awhile there are even points being made than before. You people are damn near geniuses. Congratulations.
Anyways, thanks to Fivavoa for the shoutout. I'll accept my applause in honor of mah nigga Toon Link. Ok but, to be serious Gold has brought up a good point that this is indeed a wake up call. Me personally I would of been more subtle about this wake up call but, the effect is the same. The BR indeed need to stop being so secretive. Mainly because it seems no matter what you guys do we somehow learn about everything anyways due to events like this. We shouldn't be just learning about this. We should already know it. I mean this project is made for the enjoyment of others. I would like to think that the communities would like to have a say instead of "We know what's best for you". This is obviously no PM. Minus ain't no High Quality Product. And I doubt you guys are High Quality Team. I doubt it would hurt your honor to bring important points to the community. I mean looking at the community now, a lot of the people here in this thread actually have a brain and know a thing or two. Wouldn't be a bad idea to listen to an idea or two. Never just ignore feedback. How else are we to get better. I'm looking at you pichu.
Plus I don't but this mod's activity in the outside world is so unapparent it is crazy. You guys never update your blog. You only update it to show off "Hey guys Minus 4.0" No mention of new stuff overtime or any continual updates whatsoever. That blog might as well not exist. Plus videos of the game do exist but they are hardly popular enough of a game to watch. Mainly due to its' overall bad publicity. Minus's Twitter Feed is either empty or the site doesn't even link to them. Plus Facebook is just as bad as the blog. I mean come on. Seriously.
HOWEVER, I do think new management is in order. I don't see any good reason to keep the management as it is. I been ranging the pros and cons all day. I honestly can't see why things could be allowed to get this bad. If you need a wake up call in the first place that just tells you that you're fucking up.
The silly side in me is holding back from just telling you guys to SETTLE IT IN SMASH. But I doubt that will help. I hope this helps overall in the long one. Now if you excuse me I'm try to collect enough two cents to get myself a Sprite.
Anyways, thanks to Fivavoa for the shoutout. I'll accept my applause in honor of mah nigga Toon Link. Ok but, to be serious Gold has brought up a good point that this is indeed a wake up call. Me personally I would of been more subtle about this wake up call but, the effect is the same. The BR indeed need to stop being so secretive. Mainly because it seems no matter what you guys do we somehow learn about everything anyways due to events like this. We shouldn't be just learning about this. We should already know it. I mean this project is made for the enjoyment of others. I would like to think that the communities would like to have a say instead of "We know what's best for you". This is obviously no PM. Minus ain't no High Quality Product. And I doubt you guys are High Quality Team. I doubt it would hurt your honor to bring important points to the community. I mean looking at the community now, a lot of the people here in this thread actually have a brain and know a thing or two. Wouldn't be a bad idea to listen to an idea or two. Never just ignore feedback. How else are we to get better. I'm looking at you pichu.
Plus I don't but this mod's activity in the outside world is so unapparent it is crazy. You guys never update your blog. You only update it to show off "Hey guys Minus 4.0" No mention of new stuff overtime or any continual updates whatsoever. That blog might as well not exist. Plus videos of the game do exist but they are hardly popular enough of a game to watch. Mainly due to its' overall bad publicity. Minus's Twitter Feed is either empty or the site doesn't even link to them. Plus Facebook is just as bad as the blog. I mean come on. Seriously.
HOWEVER, I do think new management is in order. I don't see any good reason to keep the management as it is. I been ranging the pros and cons all day. I honestly can't see why things could be allowed to get this bad. If you need a wake up call in the first place that just tells you that you're fucking up.
The silly side in me is holding back from just telling you guys to SETTLE IT IN SMASH. But I doubt that will help. I hope this helps overall in the long one. Now if you excuse me I'm try to collect enough two cents to get myself a Sprite.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I think maybe we should see what happens first before such a drastic change happens. The community has spoken, and from I've seen so far, the BR has very clearly listened. I personally think we should give the BR as a whole, as it is, one more chance to fix things. If this doesn't happen, then things can change in regards to leadership. Even if it took this long for everyone to wake up, it did also take the community itself a while to speak out.
AeroIncarnated
The Only Hero
Eh. It's nice that you got enough faith to consider giving them one more chance. But, i'm having trouble doing that myself for some reason. I do think it would be a good idea to wait until Minus 4.0 comes out before anything is set in stone I guess. I haven't been up to date with the community in a cool minute ever since I switched to playing Smash 4. The community still seem to talk mostly about buffs and nerfs and ganon cancels and all the hoo hahs. Plus there is the problem of fixing things. They need to know exactly what they are fixing. The only thing in Minus that shouldn't be broken is The Minus Backroom.
You seem to have us mixed for the Sm4sh community, my friend. That's where you'll find all the HOO HAHS!
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AeroIncarnated
The Only Hero
The Irony of this is that I never fought a single diddy in my life. My Hoo Hah virginity has never been broken. I plan to keep it that way.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
This is the weirdest sentence I've ever seen in my life.
This is hands down, the best thing thats been said on this thread. You sir deserve a Sprite cookie.
Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
Pin told me there'd be spiderman and shrek like three updates ago and they're still not in. That's reason enough to step down.