An Open Letter to Pin Clock

Does Brawl Minus need new management? Please read the whole thread before voting!

  • Pin needs to step down.

  • Pin doesn't need to step down.

  • I don't care. This is pointless haterade fueled drama.

  • Neutral Response.


Results are only viewable after voting.

NEWB

Well-Known Member
IF so many of the BR are in favor of keeping Pin in, then I have no qualms. You won't here complaints from me untill updates are bad. I personaly don't care who leads. I appreciate the work the BR does and the work kien does. I am very worried though. There are so few people that I can name in the BR after following minus since 2.6.

Also, kien, no matter what the conversation is, it isn't right to post private conversations just to prove YOUR point. We all know your heart is in the right place. I don't want to see you resort to that because you are better than this.
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
Well Sammi. I can answer what the active BR says. I can quote if you want me to.
Darkfire/Akeno- Sides with me

Darkfire/Akeno aren't active in the BR, and haven't been for pretty much since they joined. iirc you were the one who got them into the BR right? Not that it matters or anything.

As for numbuh, he seems pretty neutral to me. He says he sees both sides, but is just sick of fighting. I really don't want to involve people who don't want to be involved though, so i'll just leave that one alone.

Maw said that he thinks Pin is fine.

Anyways. Even if numbuh were to be considered on your side, that's still only 2 against and 2 who think he is fine..i haven't really asked the rest but yea.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
While it seems like a good idea at first, it only really serves to publicize the debate / argument. If it offers any condolance, don't you think if the majority of the BR wanted pin gone, he would be? i mean, why would we listen to/be lead by someone we didn't want or respect...? Just a thought.

I've heard most of the BR just doesn't care. I also don't see why publicizing this is wrong, as opposed to a few different people running around trying to make change [or as you'd likely call it, spread dissent].

You might also be lead by someone not wanted/respected because there doesn't seem to be an alternative/hasn't been properly considered and/or because alternatives seem worse [and Kien's presented Gold_TSG, himself, and Numbah as co-leaders with others under them, combined with community feedback meaning more and more PR, as a better alternative, but I don't know what the rest of the backroom has]. There is also usually a strong tendency to not rock the boat among groups like these from what I've seen [if others disagree you've alienated others - what's a little annoyance compared to being removed entirely?], so it's very possible people care, but just not enough. I'd just like to see a vote on how the numbers stack up, since I think you and Kien talking past each other seems less productive than simply having everyone say "Yes/No/neutral or don't care".

And yes, I did consider this, which is why I'm able to answer so quickly. Kien's narrative really isn't that believable at first [no offense] only because, as persuasively as he paints it, the idea that everyone hates a leader, everyone agrees on this, and no one wants to do anything, is absurd. That's why I want to see a poll - instead of y'all slinging numbers, I can see what the poll says for myself.

*I'd also argue that if no one in the community but the backroom likes Pin, then there's a severe disconnect between what is wanted and what is provided. That may very well be a failure of the audience, or it may be a failure to effectively communicate, but I'd argue changes are in order to rectify the problems [either a clarification of goals or an attempt to adjust to the common demand outside the backroom].
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
Regardless of the sides, and of the complaints and stuff. I hope people can see that even through all that, we still treat each other with much love and respect. Pin is well aware of his flaws, and it is quite unrealistic to think someone can be a perfect leader. I hope this small screenshot (although i didn't authorize this with anybody..) at least shows that regardless of our opinions or complaints etc etc, we handle it civilly :)
Qea7fcz.png


jwumeUZ.png

(Note: when i said "Disagreed as a group", i literally meant disagreed with each other. If nobody can agree, no change can be done! :p)

I do hope that you all will tune into a livestream if we do one, it would be a great opportunity to have fun and laugh with us. It'll likely be posted right on the front page if we do! :D I HOPE I DON'T GET SHOT FOR THOSE SCREE- *ded*
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
@Sammi-husky: A suggestion: If you're going to host a livestream, post a new thread asking for questions and topics to be addressed at least 48 hours before the streams goes live. That way, you'll have relevant stuff to talk about, even if only a few people show up.

Also, could you save a video of it on YouTube or something? So those who can't attend the livestream can view it later.

One more thing I'd like to see is an updated Developer/Backroomer Info page. Tell us more about yourselves.
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
I think it's a little telling that this is the first time I've seen the names of any non-retired backroom members other than Kien or Pin Clock in seven months of varying presence on the boards. I have no idea what the backroom's been up to, other than Kien's pretty inclusive messages about a possibility of Mewtwo... which was itself marred by disruption from Pin.

I'll be honest, I'm not really aware of the inner workings of the backroom, but the 3.Q and (purported) 4.0 changelogs are any indication, I don't like where Minus is going. Ganondorf lost a lot of combo potential with 3.Q's change to his up tilt and down smash, and didn't gain anything crazy out of it. Sonic will be ruined for me in 4.0, if the changes are as absolute as I envision. Meta Knight went from a dangerous air-combo machine who was overpowered in teams to an annoying air-combo tickler who is one of the worst team players in the game - and he doesn't even have a laser sword metagame anymore. I don't even practice Lucario and I can 'combo' people to death without losing a stock. (Much more easily than I can with characters I practice!) I love how mobile Lucario is, but the ludicrous hitbox growth he gains from Aura makes him into too much of a lightning bruiser. If he could just be fast and require you to actually pay attention to your movement a little without clogging the entire stage with disjointed hitboxes until he wins, that'd be dandy.

Dedede remains perfect.

I think I'll wait to see what happens in 4.0 (if it comes out this year) before I judge anyone too harshly. I haven't seen much from Pin other than a cancelled Pichu tournament, a lot of message and thread-deletion shenanigans, and the 4.0 changelog. Meanwhile, Kien's been bopping around the forums, debating character design and asking forum members what they think should go into the next build. Sometime when I'm not bogged down with college work, I'd love to learn to script Brawl and help out with the mod, but I don't even know what the backroom does. Kien talks about things, the back room churns invisibly, and then something weird comes out every six months.

I believe Sammi when he/she says that the developers don't have time to post frequent updates. I barely have time to lurk! But I haven't seen a single 'progress' blog in the last seven months other than the 4.0 post Pin made. Would it be too much to ask to do one every month or two, or even three? I don't know how I'd meaningfully help it come about, but I'd certainly be willing to try.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot Tybis was part of the back room. Hi Tybis!
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Well. There might be some things worth mentioning. I haven't replied in a bit because I was fighting BC for 3 and a half hours. But I'm gonna stop that for a few hours so I can tend to this stuff.
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
@Sammi-husky: A suggestion: If you're going to host a livestream, post a new thread asking for questions and topics to be addressed at least 48 hours before the streams goes live. That way, you'll have relevant stuff to talk about, even if only a few people show up.

Also, could you save a video of it on YouTube or something? So those who can't attend the livestream can view it later.

One more thing I'd like to see is an updated Developer/Backroomer Info page. Tell us more about yourselves.

All very good ideas mate. Thanks a bunch! I'll be sure to do most if not all of those things :)

I believe Sammi when he/she says that the developers don't have time to post frequent updates. I barely have time to lurk! But I haven't seen a single 'progress' blog in the last seven months other than the 4.0 post Pin made. Would it be too much to ask to do one every month or two, or even three? I don't know how I'd meaningfully help it come about, but I'd certainly be willing to try.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot Tybis was part of the back room. Hi Tybis!

We were talking about doing more community based development, but unfortunately we decided it would have to wait until we got a launcher that allowed updating without user involvement. Frequent updates (while fun during the beta) are quite tedious to both the limited resources we have, and to the end user. But trust me, we all know we should be updating more than we are..And for that i personally, and we as a group, sincerely apologize.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
So I take it Tybis didn't mention that he almost left because of Pin. I could screenshot it but I don't imagine he'd mind me saying it openly. I don't think this is a bad thing for discussion. It's actually pretty interesting to see what people have to say since I'm not orchestrating this behind the scenes anymore. Like an evil mastermind usurper of the minus throne. What I wanted, was for Minus to be run by 3 people minimum who each have different ideals for what make the game amazing. With myself being dedicated to balance, Numbuh working on making sure everything is interesting, and Gold being there to test things. The game would become fun for those who like fair fights while staying true to Minus spirit, not held back by restrictions (outside of lavaville staying) because that was a dying wish more or less.
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
So I take it Tybis didn't mention that he almost left because of Pin. I could screenshot it but I don't imagine he'd mind me saying it openly. I don't think this is a bad thing for discussion. It's actually pretty interesting to see what people have to say since I'm not orchestrating this behind the scenes anymore. Like an evil mastermind usurper of the minus throne. What I wanted, was for Minus to be run by 3 people minimum who each have different ideals for what make the game amazing. With myself being dedicated to balance, Numbuh working on making sure everything is interesting, and Gold being there to test things. The game would become fun for those who like fair fights while staying true to Minus spirit, not held back by restrictions (outside of lavaville staying) because that was a dying wish more or less.

maaaaaaannnn where am i in your perfect minus world :c i thought we was homies *runs and cries in a corner* lol

Also, it kind was/is like that. Except pin just has the official title of being "Leader".

For the most part, my place was getting things to just FEEL RIGHT in the players hands, while being balanced. As well as trying to keep the peace / making long winded walls of text that are either motivational or inspirational in some fashion to get us further working towards a common goal, care mostly about balance/game design, as well as do coding and such (including tools development and scienceing). ^^^this would be a good bit for that dev page mentioned earlier :eek:

The backroom, even in your 3 person setup, would be eerily similar to how it is now. Basically, it would still come down to a majority vote between those 3 leaders. I.e two would have to agree. That's not all that different from how it is now, considering only about 5 people max ever participate in the discussions/arguments about decision making.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
I don't think the people can really decide based upon hearing one side of the situation, so I feel as if it's only natural that I provide my side of the story as well.

It's story time, so I shall tell you a dev room's tale of Brawl Minus' development

Most of this will be building based upon facts that Sammi has already established, such as Kien bringing personal manners into game development that do not belong in game development, amongst other things.

Back when Moo added me to the Brawl Minus team in the times before 2.x.6 was released, I had only desires to to do my part the the best Brawl Minus that could be released would be released, and always wanted to further development and push the envelope further and further each update of beta. For example, when the beta started to slack, it was my idea to push The Storm Update, and develop a system that everyone wouldn't feel rushed every wednesday-friday by pushing out a few small beta updates and follow those by one large one. This system worked well for developers and myself when I was testing, and everything went pretty much swimmingly until MAX came out, after which point we all congratulated each other for our work and Minus, being "Maximized" was considered done.

Then time passed and the community began to have issues with certain aspects of MAX, which made me want to give the community a Valentine's gift in rebalancing Minus to be more enjoyable for everyone. When I proposed it to Moo, he liked the idea, but said that he was too busy with life to direct it, and passed the duty on to me and that's pretty much how I started to direct Minus. The word "Leader" is simple and more to the point of the role, but really I simply oversee all development and proposals.

So what went wrong?

There were disagreements on how things should be balanced that started off as debates and turned into arguments. I'm not going to name any specific instances (R.O.B.), but it was all rough and no one could come to terms on how things should be handled. And it wasn't just between Kien and I. Sammi, Glyph, Gold, Mech, Tybis, and anyone else not mentioned, everyone had their own views on what was "not nerfed enough" and "nerfed too much". Our goal of providing balance was vague as we never knew where the fine line was. Then it got nasty and personal. People started accusing each other of bias, and saying their views were better based upon their skills in the game, and that those who played better designed better, which really doesn't make much sense. Those who design better are better designers. Those who mostly debated these changes and considered skill the highest were the first to leave after being tired of disagreements. Glyph was one of those people. There was also an incident with Kien involving Link's infamous "37% damage fTilt jesus christ" and all of us requesting that be nerfed. The only way Kien would agree to this was if we sped up Mortal Draw. Personally this makes no sense, as nerfing one thing is not an excuse to buff another thing without seeing if said thing needs buffing in the first place. But ultimately we went with it since it didn't seem worth battling further.

After 1.01, I wanted to go back to that pushing the envelope thing I did before, and proposed adding Pichu to the game as Brawl Minus' first new character, as well as create a more polished game. At the time we had recruited TSON, the co-founder of Minus and responsible for most of the original coding, who agreed with this mindset. An argument involving coin element on Luigi's dTilt had ultimately caused Ellipsis to quit the team, who had disagreed with this change. Ellipsis later returned and apologized for acting irrationally, and agreed on removing the coin element on Luigi's dTilt. The development went on for months, with the community, as well as Glyph and Kien, pushing for a release date. I did my job of calculating when things would be ready by asking everyone involved in the coding of Pichu and other things, and between the two dates I proposed, April 29th and April 22nd, April 22nd was the day voted upon. The 22nd was, needless to say, a very very busy day. The vBrawl CSS had still not been made, and we had to rush out that at the last minute. Once that was all set, we transferred both versions off and had it ready for upload. But there was a mistake somewhere, and a test build was uploaded instead! Naturally we did what we could to rectify the situation as soon as possible! I wanted to keep my promise of getting the game out on the 22nd, but at the same time it was my mistake to not test the uploaded build, and delay the release of the game when that happened, and I have taken responsibility and apologized on several occasions soon after this happened. There was another incident with Kien. It was discovered that Mortal Draw could be combo'd into. Mortal Draw is an OHKO so that's uh really kinda unhealthy. Kien insisted on this change staying in, as he did not his main Link to be any weaker, and felt that the only one who should defeat Ganon's OHKO Punch should be Link with a better OHKO for Lore reasons that really had nothing to do with Minus balance. Mortal Draw got slowed down after a long battle.

3.5 was mostly smooth sailing. The removal of the SEP caused us to pick and choose what stages remained in the game, though. This is where I will directly confront one of Kien's points, regarding the stagelist. All of us in the dev room decided which stages would remain in the game based upon their popularity and how frequently they were played, which is how we wound up with a stage list very close to the one we have today. Some stages may be similar to others, like YS Melee, Battlefield, Dream Greens, and FoD, but when deciding which we would take out, we had decided against it due to A. All of these stages offering something unique, as well as being popular in their own right and B. There wasn't a stage to replace them with. Also Gold left during this period for his own reasons, as well as Glitch, who never really left the team but instead isn't a BR. Naturally he's still working on this very site and supporting Minus outside of the game itself.

3.Q had two bumps in the road during development: The first one is an incident once again revolving around R.O.B. basically, Kien made a new R.O.B. build form vBrawl, that focused on making him pretty much a zoner. Not only did it miss R.O.B.'s basic design in its execution (R.O.B. by design is a character who uses his projectiles to create openings and then rush in for combos).The build was fairly wonky and still needed a lot of things determined, and its proposal did not sound popular on the forums, so this R.O.B. build was ultimately rejected, and R.O.B. was once again given nerfs instead. The other was bigger, and this was related to SAHunterMech, who proposed a Gan-NUKE in place of the Gandouken, which was similar to Falcon's Punch aura in 2.x.6, in which the would be huge GFX hitbox surrounding the punch, only rather than Falcon's multihit, this would be a single hit. This sounded nice on paper, so it was developed and tested. And during testing, it had the same problems Falcon's, which was discourage actual edgeguarding and just use punches on the edge. Mech tried to rework it, but ultimately nothing worked right, so it was scrapped. Mech was upset and left, but is willing to work on non-fighter things if needed.

Now let's get to 4.0 development, and where we are today. There was another incident with Kien. The first is the Venus Lighthouse incident. When discussing stages, Kien proposed Venus Lighthouse. It was debated and people liked it, but Tybis and I expressed concern for anti-competition (we have since changed our minds, but this was our mindset at the time). This caused Kien to create a thread which, since this was a BR discussion and BR discussions should not be brought out to the public, I deleted on sight. This caused another incident with Kien, involving him acting against the interests of the BR and sending mass PMs. It gave us a view on Venus Lighthouse, but not in the way we wanted to get that view. Kien lost PM privileges and we agreed to reconsider Venus Lighthouse. There was another incident with Kien. While discussing Lavaville vs Norfair, a debate now known on the forums, BPC's request was brought up, and the two of us got in a hot debate about stages and the value of the request. We ultimately decided on what is now known in the 4.0 preview changelog, thanks to Moo messaging BPC himself about the matter. Despite it already being resolved and not involving him at all, Kien wrote a long essay and essentially left the dev room in a fit of rage. I had no interest in reading as the first two paragraphs were all personal insults towards me, and if the beginning of it was just mocking me and spitting on my image, I saw no reason why I should have to read further. Then several weeks later, there was another incident with Kien. Tybis mentioned Kien wanting to come back to the BR, so as leader I went to talk to Kien myself. Kien's immediate response was something along the lines of "Well my wishes were already broken because I wish to never talk to you again". We tried debating terms which were essentially listening to each other more. Since Kien has actually left the BR in fits of rage several times before, I figured I should test it this time. The results were...disappointing, to say the least. We can talk the talk together, but we just simply cannot walk the walk. And on top of this, the dev room since Kien's absence has been much more peaceful. I'll even confess, there was even relief from multiple people when he left. There were no arguments that lead to nowhere, no long essays, no personal attacks on one another, things were just...starting to work. Several people asides myself have shown that They don't want Kien back. All of these factors combined, alongside all of the aforementioned incidents, let me reach the conclusion to decline Kien reentry into the backroom.

And here we are today. Kien further harassed me pushing for him to get in, but I decided to block Kien since talking to him was only causing me stress and nothing seemed to change on either party. Kien then sent out mass PMs discussing a community uprising against me (which I learned of thanks to an anonymous tip) and telling the community that I am some sort of tyrant because I have the flaw that was mentioned in this thread (I skimmed, will reply to individual posts later) that if I'm not confident in someone's abilities, I shoot their ideas down if they don't seem right a little too early. As anyone else currently in the BR can tell you, I'm rather trustworthy of the likes of Sammi and Tybis, and Maw has warmed up to me very quickly. Nowhere in any point has Kien shown me that he knows "what he's doing", from his intense bias towards the Zelda franchise to making questionable changes to various characters (3.Q Dorf, among the others I already mentioned), and on top of that his personal vendetta and arrogant attitude against me only pushed me to trust him less as a team member. This is a fate that could have been avoided if both of us were a little different and more open to one another, but we have passed that point now, I am afraid.

Anyways, the thread has brought attention to the dev room and we all discussed this thread as well as my leadership, and came to the conclusion that I'm a fair leader to the team and that this thread was more unneeded drama, but did make us want to involve ourselves in the community more. We love the community, it's just we're busy with our lives too, but if it lets you trust us more as a development team, we are willing to make more time for the ones we make our game for.

and now we're discussing trading card games.

And that is my story.

TL;DR there were a lot of mistakes over Minus history, and I list a few incidents in which Kien and I got in debates that should not have happened and never ended well. Kien left the BR in rage and got even more enraged when I decided to not let him back in due to the fact that he acted against the BR. He's a capable coder but not a team player. We're going to work to involve ourselves more as a dev team with our community. Trading card games.

Now after writing the longest post I've ever made, it's time to read the rest of this thread and respond to individual posters. Feel free to reply to this one with any questions as well, and I will kindly answer them.
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
holy fuck pin, you just eclipsed my message. lol THANKS A BUNCH BRO.

and now we're discussing trading card games.
You..didn't have to tell them that. That...literally happened like 4 minutes ago..weirdo. (jk obv)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Valravn

Well-Known Member
Frequent updates would be killer, but I meant little update sorta things. Someone pops in and says "Hey, we're thinking about switching out Ganon's up tilt, any opinions?" and then people give their opinions. Maybe they give good ideas, maybe they don't. Up to the developers to change things, but it's nice to have a little input, or at least know what to expect with the next version.

EDIT: Didn't see the wall of text there. Hi Pin! Good to see you.
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
Frequent updates would be killer, but I meant little update sorta things. Someone pops in and says "Hey, we're thinking about switching out Ganon's up tilt, any opinions?" and then people give their opinions. Maybe they give good ideas, maybe they don't. Up to the developers to change things, but it's nice to have a little input, or at least know what to expect with the next version.

I have a few ideas regarding more publicity. It may even be in the best interest to recruit a dedicated writer to the team to handle PR on our relevant social media.
 

Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
Strange how the "leader" of a project that has very few developers denies a person trying to join the backroom. But yeah, methinks it's time that Pin steps down and lets someone else be leader.
A need for people does not mean anyone and anyone gets in. Experience and cooperation are needed in order to work well and work with everyone to make the best game that we can create. As I explained in my ramblings, Kien creates well, but I don't feel like he worked well with everyone else. I was not the only one he argued with, just the one he argued with most of the time.

[I would be surprised if it was as leader, since I've heard you do not code]
Fun fact: BPC, the founder of Minus, did not code much either. Coding ability does not directly relate to the abilities to manage a project and direct a team. Also production managers do not do the same job the animators do, to use an example from my school.

Useless addition to one of my single digit post counts,
I did not leave the br because of Pin, I left for completely other reasons (some irrational but unchangeable), and some personal.
And we wouldn't be where we are today (literally) without your continued support for the game.

@Sammi-husky: A suggestion: If you're going to host a livestream, post a new thread asking for questions and topics to be addressed at least 48 hours before the streams goes live. That way, you'll have relevant stuff to talk about, even if only a few people show up.

Also, could you save a video of it on YouTube or something? So those who can't attend the livestream can view it later.

One more thing I'd like to see is an updated Developer/Backroomer Info page. Tell us more about yourselves.
All of these are wonderful suggestions. As Sammi menioned prior, we'll see to it that these get done. We're actually expanding the team a little too, just ask our newest member Doqtor Kirby!

I think it's a little telling that this is the first time I've seen the names of any non-retired backroom members other than Kien or Pin Clock in seven months of varying presence on the boards.
We're all rather busy, between jobs/school, social lives (heh), and Minus, but due to this situation being what it is we had to make a special case. And on a Friday Night too. what a time to be alive.

I'll be honest, I'm not really aware of the inner workings of the backroom, but the 3.Q and (purported) 4.0 changelogs are any indication, I don't like where Minus is going. Ganondorf lost a lot of combo potential with 3.Q's change to his up tilt and down smash, and didn't gain anything crazy out of it.
Thank Kien for the Ganon changes. They were, as Glyph put it best, "An answer to a problem that didn't exist". That's a lie, Kien's not all to blame. These were in the last days of Q's development, with the only thing really having to time test fully being the NUKE that was removed. I should have examined these more besides "do they work/not make the system go BEEEEEEEE and are they presentable/functional?", and for that I apologize. Anyways, the Ganon uTilt and dSmash are already being reverted

Sonic will be ruined for me in 4.0, if the changes are as absolute as I envision.
Wonderful thing about beta changelogs is they're beta. We're actually already discussing various ways to buff this Boost, as we determined a 1:1 of Palutena's Super Speed is a little too weak for Sonic since he and Palutena are still different characters.

The rest of your fighter criticisms I currently don't have a comment on.

I haven't seen much from Pin other than a cancelled Pichu tournament, a lot of message and thread-deletion shenanigans, and the 4.0 changelog.
This is actually more of a personal thing that has to do with me as "leader". Basically, with every post I make, I feel as if I'm not only representing myself, but representing the game and the development team as a whole.

For example, when Zeus announced Marisa Kirasame of Touhou fame as a character and I made a thread stating my happiness about it, people asked if Marisa or various Touhou representation was getting in Minus. And I feel that this would not have happened if I was anybody else posting it.

I consider my posts as representation, so that is why I am extra cautious of not only what I post, but also when I post.

As for not posting much development-wise, it's mostly because we're all busy testing a bajillion things and would rather post things we're certain on.

I believe Sammi when he/she says that the developers don't have time to post frequent updates. I barely have time to lurk! But I haven't seen a single 'progress' blog in the last seven months other than the 4.0 post Pin made. Would it be too much to ask to do one every month or two, or even three? I don't know how I'd meaningfully help it come about, but I'd certainly be willing to try.
If there's one thing that's come out of all of this, it's "More Community Discussion and Involvement" is going to be a thing.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Never did I realize that Pin and I were past the point of no return until he outright rejected me. Let's get some more personal quotes instead of just mentioning incidents.
We're going to have differing views on these subjects, you know that right?
[2/19/2015 8:48:43 PM] Pin Clock: Like there's no right or wrong answer on how involved a dev team should be with the community
[2/19/2015 8:49:50 PM] Kienamaru: I'm not asking you to agree. I'm asking if you understand.
[2/19/2015 8:49:57 PM] Pin Clock: I do
[2/19/2015 8:50:18 PM] Kienamaru: Another thing.
[2/19/2015 8:50:32 PM] Kienamaru: If there's one thing that we can compromise on.
[2/19/2015 8:52:21 PM] Pin Clock: it would be...
[2/19/2015 8:52:28 PM] Kienamaru: You want me to be more open to everyone else's input regarding balance. And to be more understanding when someone has more experience regarding something that I disagree with.
[2/19/2015 8:52:42 PM] Pin Clock: yes
[2/19/2015 8:52:49 PM] Kienamaru: So if we're gonna go 2 for 2
[2/19/2015 8:53:16 PM] Pin Clock: then
[2/19/2015 8:53:44 PM] Kienamaru: I obviously want the same for you from the second. But What else I want, is that you be willing to read anything that we have to say if we tell you that it's important. and By we, I mean myself. Because you don't argue with others that as often.
[2/19/2015 8:54:16 PM] Kienamaru: Basically, if I say you're being a dick, there's a reason for it.
[2/19/2015 8:54:24 PM] Kienamaru: As I've shown you before and trolled you afterwards.
[2/19/2015 8:54:35 PM] Pin Clock: Because you don't like me as a developer, blah blah blah
[2/19/2015 8:54:44 PM] Pin Clock: the problem is you bring personal things into it too much of the time
[2/19/2015 8:54:45 PM] Kienamaru: Being proven wrong actually leads to some good times every now and then.
[2/19/2015 8:54:50 PM] Pin Clock: when we're talking about aspects of the game
[2/19/2015 8:55:12 PM] Kienamaru: I bring personal things into it, because they backup my claims.
[2/19/2015 8:55:33 PM] Kienamaru: You could do the same, but I always try my best to not provide people with things to use against me, though I know that doesn't always work.
[2/19/2015 8:55:57 PM] Kienamaru: As a person you're fine. I'd split a pizza with you even.
[2/19/2015 8:56:11 PM] Kienamaru: So long as we aren't arguing, I only slightly dislike you.
[2/19/2015 8:56:16 PM] Kienamaru: But I don't consider you an enemy.
[2/19/2015 8:56:59 PM] Kienamaru: There will probably always be animosity so long as you're leading and I'm following, but I can deal with it, so long as you don't shut me down without giving me a chance.
[2/19/2015 8:57:33 PM] Pin Clock: I'll just say your main problem is, and I've said it before
[2/19/2015 8:57:39 PM] Pin Clock: you're more stubborn than even I
[2/19/2015 8:57:47 PM] Kienamaru: I DON'T KNOW ABOUT CAPS LOCKING THAT
[2/19/2015 8:57:58 PM] Kienamaru: You're the most stubborn person I know.
[2/19/2015 8:58:13 PM] Pin Clock: You're the most stubborn person I know.
[2/19/2015 8:58:23 PM] Kienamaru: But it isn't the stubbornness that bothers me.
[2/19/2015 8:58:37 PM] Kienamaru: It's that you fail to listen to reason and to openly evaluate a situation.
[2/19/2015 8:58:41 PM] Kienamaru: As in
[2/19/2015 8:58:53 PM] Kienamaru: if you do evaluate, you don't tell others how you're seeing it in the moment.
[2/19/2015 8:58:56 PM] Kienamaru: This leads to conflict.
[2/19/2015 8:59:26 PM] Kienamaru: And you're unwilling to take most people's word even when they're positive of something.
[2/19/2015 9:35:04 PM] Pin Clock: Because you can be absolutely certain on something and still wind up wrong
[2/19/2015 9:36:12 PM] Kienamaru: True in some cases.
[2/19/2015 9:36:32 PM] Kienamaru: Anyway, I'm just asking that you be open about why you make the decisions you make.
[2/19/2015 9:36:36 PM] Kienamaru: Can we agree to those terms?
[2/19/2015 9:37:12 PM] Pin Clock: I've always been open about why I see things certain ways
[2/19/2015 9:41:53 PM] Pin Clock: Such as "Where did you put Kirby, Lucas, Fox, and Shiek? I need to test those"
[2/19/2015 9:42:11 PM] Pin Clock: the Kirby where you fixed the punch, Sheik where you fixed the needles, Fox his cancel, etc etc
[2/19/2015 9:42:22 PM] Pin Clock: oh and your FitPopo, I dunno if I ever grabbed that or not
[2/19/2015 9:46:19 PM] Kienamaru: That's not what I mean.
[2/19/2015 9:46:24 PM] Kienamaru: I mean things like...
[2/19/2015 9:46:33 PM] Pin Clock: Could you still tell me where you put those though I need them
[2/19/2015 9:46:37 PM] Kienamaru: When you say- We aren't doing this because of blah blah.
[2/19/2015 9:46:42 PM] Kienamaru: Wait, that was a real question?
[2/19/2015 9:46:45 PM] Pin Clock: yes
[2/19/2015 9:47:02 PM] Kienamaru: They should be in the 4.0 release since I don't use test folders.
[2/19/2015 9:47:49 PM] Kienamaru: Yeah, they are.
[2/19/2015 9:48:48 PM] Pin Clock: When I say we aren't doing things because of blah blah blah I usually mean blah blah blah though
[2/19/2015 9:48:50 PM] Pin Clock: and thanks
[2/19/2015 9:49:11 PM] Kienamaru: I know what you mean. But we would all benefit from knowing why you mean.
[2/19/2015 9:49:16 PM] Kienamaru: And why you're so adamant on them.
[2/19/2015 9:49:38 PM] Pin Clock: Can you name a specific instance?
[2/19/2015 9:49:42 PM] Pin Clock: I'm not saying I've never done that
[2/19/2015 9:49:46 PM] Pin Clock: I just want an example
[2/19/2015 9:49:49 PM] Kienamaru: The whole stage fiasco
[2/19/2015 9:50:04 PM] Pin Clock: Norfair right?
[2/19/2015 9:50:08 PM] Kienamaru: I could say that
[2/19/2015 9:50:17 PM] Kienamaru: Or it could be the time when I wanted to use Seven Blades Light
[2/19/2015 9:50:33 PM] Pin Clock: But I was for that
[2/19/2015 9:50:52 PM] Kienamaru: You weren't the one who wanted a retexture of it ?
[2/19/2015 9:51:00 PM] Pin Clock: Geez at least bring up Venus Lighthouse
[2/19/2015 9:51:03 PM] Kienamaru: Nah
[2/19/2015 9:51:06 PM] Pin Clock: you can do better than that
[2/19/2015 9:51:08 PM] Kienamaru: because Tybis convinced you of that
[2/19/2015 9:51:10 PM] Kienamaru: here's a good one
[2/19/2015 9:51:23 PM] Kienamaru: When I voted we retexture Yoshi's Island Brawl to be Zelda themed
[2/19/2015 9:51:34 PM] Kienamaru: since Zelda doesn't have stage rep to match character rep
[2/19/2015 9:51:39 PM] Pin Clock: Yes, because that's the worst idea you've ever proposed
[2/19/2015 9:51:41 PM] Kienamaru: and Yoshi had more stages than characters by 3fold
[2/19/2015 9:51:53 PM] Pin Clock: like being honest here
[2/19/2015 9:52:11 PM | Edited 9:52:20 PM] Pin Clock: why retexture a vBrawl stage just to suit your tastes or for some meaningless thing like "representation"?
[2/19/2015 9:52:31 PM] Kienamaru: You think representation is meaningless?
[2/19/2015 9:52:34 PM] Pin Clock: yes
[2/19/2015 9:52:37 PM] Pin Clock: Who do you think we are
[2/19/2015 9:52:38 PM] Kienamaru: That explains a lot.
[2/19/2015 9:52:39 PM] Pin Clock: Sakurai?
[2/19/2015 9:52:47 PM] Pin Clock: Zelda has 5 characters
[2/19/2015 9:52:52 PM] Pin Clock: and 3 stages
[2/19/2015 9:52:57 PM] Kienamaru: Technically 4 characters.
[2/19/2015 9:52:59 PM] Pin Clock: Pokemon as 8 characters and 3 stages
[2/19/2015 9:53:04 PM] Kienamaru: Not exactly
[2/19/2015 9:53:08 PM] Kienamaru: Spear pillar counts as 3
[2/19/2015 9:53:13 PM] Kienamaru: Stadium 1 counts as 4
[2/19/2015 9:53:18 PM] Pin Clock: No no see this is what i mean
[2/19/2015 9:53:20 PM] Kienamaru: Lavender and Stadium 2 are still there
[2/19/2015 9:53:27 PM] Pin Clock: you count things seperately when it suits you
[2/19/2015 9:53:33 PM] Kienamaru: Just like I consider Siege as 3 stages
[2/19/2015 9:53:35 PM] Pin Clock: and count them together when it suits you
[2/19/2015 9:53:38 PM] Kienamaru: Noooo.
[2/19/2015 9:53:46 PM] Kienamaru: Transform at will characters man
[2/19/2015 9:53:50 PM] Pin Clock: like if you're considering transformations seperate things
[2/19/2015 9:53:58 PM] Pin Clock: then Zelda and Sheik are two characters
[2/19/2015 9:54:03 PM] Kienamaru: If they can transform at will, then they're more or less one
[2/19/2015 9:54:04 PM] Pin Clock: otherwise your argument falls apart
[2/19/2015 9:54:15 PM] Pin Clock: that's incredibly dumb for an argument
[2/19/2015 9:54:20 PM] Kienamaru: I don't think so.
[2/19/2015 9:54:28 PM] Pin Clock: like this is incredibly faulty logic
[2/19/2015 9:54:35 PM] Kienamaru: Let's not get on faulty logic.
[2/19/2015 9:54:39 PM] Kienamaru: That'll never end
[2/19/2015 9:55:09 PM] Pin Clock: Then stop asking to retexture this stage
[2/19/2015 9:55:10 PM] Kienamaru: I consider holding a Vbrawl stage's texture as important to be faulty logic.
[2/19/2015 9:55:14 PM] Pin Clock: our focus is gameplay
[2/19/2015 9:55:14 PM] Kienamaru: I'm not asking though
[2/19/2015 9:55:19 PM] Kienamaru: I brought that up as an example...
[2/19/2015 9:55:21 PM] Pin Clock: not "representation"
[2/19/2015 9:55:24 PM] Kienamaru: :| Because you asked me to.

aaaand a later part of that discussion.

So how are we going to compromise?
[2/18/2015 10:42:14 PM] Kienamaru: Are you still not here?
[2/18/2015 10:42:27 PM] Pin Clock: Here, just busy with school related business
[2/18/2015 10:42:43 PM] Kienamaru: :| I'll be here when you're available.
[2/19/2015 12:03:32 AM] Pin Clock: we'll talk tomorrow, I'm afraid I can't stay awake any longer
[2/19/2015 12:03:48 AM] Kienamaru: Uh uh.
[2/19/2015 7:06:15 PM] Pin Clock: ready if you still want to talk
[2/19/2015 7:20:53 PM] Kienamaru: Give me like 10 minutes.
[2/19/2015 7:31:20 PM] Kienamaru: Okay.
[2/19/2015 7:36:44 PM] Kienamaru: So how are we going to compromise?
[2/19/2015 7:39:21 PM] Pin Clock: Personally I wish for you to be more open to team input and other people's words in regards to balance, and not disregard them as bias when you yourself also have bias against those characters
[2/19/2015 7:40:11 PM] Kienamaru: And what do you intend to change about yourself?
[2/19/2015 7:40:25 PM] Pin Clock: I personally don't know, what do you want me to change?
[2/19/2015 7:40:52 PM] Kienamaru: Quite a bit really.
[2/19/2015 7:40:57 PM] Kienamaru: But let's make a list.
[2/19/2015 7:42:46 PM] Kienamaru: 1. Be more open and understanding when someone has more experience than you regarding a subject.
[2/19/2015 7:44:08 PM] Kienamaru: 2. If a character has been nerfed/buffed a lot, think about why. Maybe they need those buffs or nerfs.
[2/19/2015 7:44:49 PM] Pin Clock: Right back at you
[2/19/2015 7:44:57 PM] Kienamaru: I can deal.
[2/19/2015 7:45:35 PM] Pin Clock: Okay, Sammi says you nerfed Lucario too much and lists his reasons
[2/19/2015 7:45:37 PM] Pin Clock: what do you do
[2/19/2015 7:46:12 PM] Kienamaru: 3. Don't hold back updates for extensive periods of time because we can't get out ALL of what we wanted. The community liked frequent releases, and wouldn't mind a small release that fixes general issues instead of implementing new things.
[2/19/2015 7:46:23 PM] Kienamaru: Now to answer that question.
[2/19/2015 7:46:26 PM] Pin Clock: That is my management and we handle it different
[2/19/2015 7:46:47 PM] Kienamaru: Yes, I'm asking that you consider the positives and negatives to altering your management.
[2/19/2015 7:46:53 PM] Pin Clock: You can release your version how you want, but everyone else in the room agrees we should wait until the version is finished before we release it
[2/19/2015 7:47:13 PM] Kienamaru: Asking that you consider every possibility.
[2/19/2015 7:47:16 PM] Kienamaru: Anyway.
[2/19/2015 7:48:19 PM] Kienamaru: If Sammi were to say that I nerfed Lucario too hard, even though he handles many of the Lucario changes... I'd ask him to keep playing as Lucario. If slight toning down of a character completely ruin them, then they weren't well designed and were too over reliant on a certain tool.
[2/19/2015 7:48:45 PM] Kienamaru: We would find ways to give Lucario power in different places while toning down his excess.
[2/19/2015 7:49:13 PM] Kienamaru: Instead of him being the current 3 trick pony that he is, he would have more options, but some of his extremely easy methods wouldn't be as easy against skilled players.
[2/19/2015 7:50:29 PM] Kienamaru: It would be necessary to see who the changes affect his matchups with particularly if anyone. And how.
[2/19/2015 7:51:00 PM] Kienamaru: If they change his matchup against everyone then that's how they should be. But if it's matchup specific then something isn't right.
[2/19/2015 7:51:25 PM] Kienamaru: Basically, you take a character before and after. and compare their weaknesses and strengths.
[2/19/2015 7:55:13 PM] Pin Clock: So that's your answer...
[2/19/2015 7:55:50 PM] Kienamaru: What about your answers?
[2/19/2015 7:56:50 PM] Pin Clock: Listen, consider his conclusion and the views of the community, as well as how the other characters will be in the upcoming version, and make compromises based upon those. And test the changes for balance, naturally
[2/19/2015 7:58:25 PM] Kienamaru: I'm not following you. I know the meaning of what you said, but are you saying that Sammi actually feels Lucario is too weak?
[2/19/2015 8:00:32 PM] Pin Clock: Half test half true
[2/19/2015 8:00:47 PM] Pin Clock: He believes it's a see-saw between Lucario, ROB, and the rest of the roster
[2/19/2015 8:00:59 PM] Pin Clock: Lucario is too strong, nerf him
[2/19/2015 8:01:04 PM] Pin Clock: now ROB is too strong, nerf him
[2/19/2015 8:01:28 PM] Pin Clock: now these other characters are too strong and we need to weaken other things
[2/19/2015 8:01:55 PM] Kienamaru: Well, I haven't touched Lucario since 3.Qish unless I'm mistaken.
[2/19/2015 8:02:02 PM] Kienamaru: Let me check his changes.
[2/19/2015 8:02:47 PM] Kienamaru: Yeah. Lucario doesn't even have any changes for 4.0 at the moment.
[2/19/2015 8:03:08 PM] Pin Clock: We haven't done much and the only thing really planned is fixing the offstage force palm chains
[2/19/2015 8:03:33 PM] Pin Clock: Mostly because Sammi's either doing life things or we were having him focus on Mewtwo
[2/19/2015 8:03:43 PM] Kienamaru: Before we go on to this
[2/19/2015 8:03:49 PM] Kienamaru: I still want your answers.
[2/19/2015 8:04:02 PM] Pin Clock: to what
[2/19/2015 8:04:56 PM] Kienamaru: Considering that other people do know what they're talking about. And that at least for me, that I'm closer to the community than most of the BR (as far as I know)
[2/19/2015 8:05:12 PM] Kienamaru: So if we can nod toward the community, why not do that?
[2/19/2015 8:05:46 PM] Pin Clock: Because the community has people who think we need a 3rd Link in the game and Cole McGrath is a character that should be considered
[2/19/2015 8:06:05 PM] Kienamaru: A 3rd link would actually be good. Cole McGrath is a joke.
[2/19/2015 8:06:19 PM] Pin Clock: What no a 3rd Link would be terrible
[2/19/2015 8:06:49 PM] Kienamaru: Not really. If you consider the changes we've made to the Link's already, Toon Link only shares maybe half of his moveset with Link.
[2/19/2015 8:06:52 PM] Pin Clock: and because as the development team this is OUR game. We make it for them and take suggestions from them, but at the end we're the ones making the game so we get the final shots and judgements
[2/19/2015 8:07:05 PM] Pin Clock: Toon Link is the cloniest character in Brawl what are you talking about
[2/19/2015 8:07:10 PM] Kienamaru: In Vbrawl
[2/19/2015 8:07:12 PM] Kienamaru: not in Mius
[2/19/2015 8:07:14 PM] Kienamaru: *minus
[2/19/2015 8:07:29 PM] Pin Clock: look a 3rd Link is A. Not happening and B. Not my main point
[2/19/2015 8:07:46 PM] Kienamaru: I was never implying that it was. I get your point, but I don't agree with it fully.
[2/19/2015 8:07:51 PM] Kienamaru: I agree that the BR gets the final say.
[2/19/2015 8:08:01 PM] Kienamaru: I disagree that your say is worth more than votes.
[2/19/2015 8:08:09 PM] Kienamaru: (inside the BR or community)
[2/19/2015 8:08:15 PM] Pin Clock: Because a pure democracy is chaos
[2/19/2015 8:08:20 PM] Pin Clock: I haven't explained that enough
[2/19/2015 8:08:37 PM] Kienamaru: Let's not get into that just yet. You can explain democracy later.
[2/19/2015 8:10:19 PM] Kienamaru: When running a team effort or a joint project, you have to be willing to hear what everyone on the team has to say. If someone on the team wants to go out of their way to see what the players think, more power to them. It helps to make the project better to those who enjoy it.
[2/19/2015 8:10:43 PM] Kienamaru: What we're aiming for is our game, made for other people.
[2/19/2015 8:10:52 PM] Kienamaru: To be completely real with you.
[2/19/2015 8:11:00 PM] Kienamaru: The BR doesn't play nearly as much as the community does.
[2/19/2015 8:11:11 PM] Kienamaru: We're either busy with life, or busy with making the game good.
[2/19/2015 8:11:14 PM] Pin Clock: But it's the BR's game
[2/19/2015 8:11:21 PM] Kienamaru: Not exactly.
[2/19/2015 8:11:35 PM] Kienamaru: Developers who make games for themselves aren't doing the players any justice.
[2/19/2015 8:11:38 PM] Pin Clock: There has to be a fine line between the developer and the community
[2/19/2015 8:11:47 PM] Pin Clock: We release it and take their inputs
[2/19/2015 8:12:05 PM] Pin Clock: Plenty of game developers make great games and hardly involve the community in the development there of
[2/19/2015 8:12:13 PM] Pin Clock: but involve it a lot with their development team
[2/19/2015 8:12:22 PM] Kienamaru: The fine line should be what we set in concrete.
[2/19/2015 8:12:48 PM] Kienamaru: What Minus has set in concrete is the combo heaviness, the character roster, and the focus of quite a few characters.
[2/19/2015 8:13:12 PM] Kienamaru: Everything that is highly subject to change should be open for discussion.
[2/19/2015 8:13:33 PM] Kienamaru: I understand that we don't need a hundred people telling us what moves to give mewtwo
[2/19/2015 8:13:48 PM] Kienamaru: But we can definitely take general idea concepts (if we lacked them)
[2/19/2015 8:13:57 PM] Kienamaru: Like my Samus reversion.
[2/19/2015 8:14:04 PM] Kienamaru: That was inspired by the community and myself.
[2/19/2015 8:14:23 PM] Kienamaru: Or the changes I've made to Peach and Lucas.
[2/19/2015 8:14:42 PM] Kienamaru: People stated that she needed buffs but not exactly power.
[2/19/2015 8:14:58 PM] Kienamaru: Lucas just didn't feel as rewarding unless you were a high level player.
[2/19/2015 8:15:09 PM] Kienamaru: So to make him more rewarding for EVERYONE I gave him more shield damage.
[2/19/2015 8:15:46 PM] Kienamaru: Even players who can't land 30 hit combos can feel as if they're doing the right thing if they happen to break a shield to land one of his already hard to land KO attacks
[2/19/2015 8:16:14 PM] Kienamaru: Samus 3.Q didn't sit well with players due to complete mechanic changes and how nothing was similar to previous builds.
[2/19/2015 8:17:11 PM] Kienamaru: Link 3.Q felt great to Link mains but unfair to others. So I toned him down a bit, took away some of his less polished features, and made him more fun to fight while giving him a few more options in exchange for what he lost.
[2/19/2015 8:18:04 PM] Pin Clock: I don't know what this rant is about since we make our changes based on feedback, we just discuss among the dev team what those changes should be
[2/19/2015 8:19:37 PM] Kienamaru: Yes, we do. But many of these changes come from the community.
[2/19/2015 8:19:49 PM] Kienamaru: Or at least from suggestions that inspire us to think of solutions.
[2/19/2015 8:19:51 PM] Pin Clock: No, the feedback comes from the community
[2/19/2015 8:19:58 PM] Pin Clock: the dev team decides what gets changed and how
[2/19/2015 8:20:14 PM] Kienamaru: We decide, but we're a small team. More minds are always better.
[2/19/2015 8:20:23 PM] Kienamaru: You know what the community is really good for?
[2/19/2015 8:20:34 PM] Kienamaru: Confirming when a character is perfect as is.
[2/19/2015 8:21:25 PM] Pin Clock: The community is good for opinions
[2/19/2015 8:21:37 PM] Pin Clock: it's the dev's job to make decisions based on those opinions
[2/19/2015 8:22:09 PM] Kienamaru: And if it isn't bad for the game, we sometimes have to alter our decisions based on community response.
[2/19/2015 8:22:23 PM] Kienamaru: Like my bias with Link.
[2/19/2015 8:22:39 PM] Kienamaru: I was biased against thinking he was OP because my playstyle is based around a code of honor.
[2/19/2015 8:22:46 PM] Kienamaru: I never even thought to spam projectiles all day.
[2/19/2015 8:23:10 PM] Kienamaru: But after seeing how effective that was when used against me, it was definitely a problem when combined with everything else he had.
 

Gold_TSG

Can't stop The Dorf Train.
I left during 3.Q pinny pins. I was part of the Gan-Nuke testing. Get your facts right GEEZ.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
I've got one more quote that I think is worth seeing. Well, actually I could have a bunch of quotes of people saying in their own way, that Pin should step down or at least reconsider his methods.

Your attitude
[2/20/2015 8:59:31 PM] Pin Clock: to sum it up in the fewest amount of words possible
[2/20/2015 8:59:49 PM] Kienamaru: I want the most words.
[2/20/2015 9:00:30 PM] Pin Clock: too tired to type the most words
[2/20/2015 9:00:39 PM] Pin Clock: and unlike you I was never one for long ramblings and essays
[2/20/2015 9:01:01 PM] Kienamaru: You realize that more people have disagreed with you than with me right?
[2/20/2015 9:01:04 PM] Kienamaru: Your attitude I mean
[2/20/2015 9:01:23 PM] Pin Clock: Nope
[2/20/2015 9:01:37 PM] Kienamaru: Well, go ask
[2/20/2015 9:01:52 PM] Pin Clock: Why should I? This is about your attitude
[2/20/2015 9:02:08 PM] Kienamaru: My attitude where you wont bring any examples
[2/20/2015 9:02:12 PM] Kienamaru: sounds like bullshit to me
[2/20/2015 9:02:27 PM] Kienamaru: My attitude has never been detrimental to Minus
[2/20/2015 9:02:29 PM] Kienamaru: unlike yours
[2/20/2015 9:11:45 PM] Pin Clock: wow look at those hot opinions and bold words
[2/20/2015 9:11:55 PM] Kienamaru: this is bold
[2/20/2015 9:12:06 PM] Kienamaru: Sadly, those aren't even opinions.
[2/20/2015 9:12:18 PM] Kienamaru: You haven't brought any examples of my bad attitude.
[2/20/2015 9:12:32 PM] Kienamaru: Your attitude was the reason 3.3 was so shitty of a release initially.
[2/20/2015 9:12:35 PM] Kienamaru: That's a fact.
[2/20/2015 9:12:45 PM] Kienamaru: People didn't like how that turned out.
[2/20/2015 9:13:15 PM] Kienamaru: The worst I've done is make something on a character where people are like "She/He's too strong now"
[2/20/2015 9:13:27 PM] Kienamaru: Not bringing the entire game down.
[2/20/2015 9:17:13 PM] Kienamaru: You can say that this is about me all you want.
[2/20/2015 9:17:43 PM] Kienamaru: I know you don't like taking the blame for your own actions. And I know that you don't want me to start pointing out what you've done in comparison to what I've done.
[2/20/2015 9:18:09 PM] Kienamaru: So I'll leave you the satisfaction of already knowing who's in the wrong here. If there has to be a wrong.
[2/20/2015 9:22:39 PM] Pin Clock: You know it was working fine during testing and something happened at the last minute that messed everything up
[2/20/2015 9:23:03 PM] Pin Clock: don't skew the story we still had it something accidental just happened in the process since I had Glitch upload it and fuck knows what he did
[2/20/2015 9:23:38 PM] Pin Clock: and even then we patched it fairly quickly and nothing else like that had happened since
[2/20/2015 9:25:46 PM] Kienamaru: showing the beauty of patching
[2/20/2015 9:25:53 PM] Kienamaru: the issue wasn't that
[2/20/2015 9:25:59 PM] Kienamaru: it was that we didn't have enough time to complete Pichu
[2/20/2015 9:26:18 PM] Kienamaru: and you had rathered we released him as an incomplete but functional character
[2/20/2015 9:26:58 PM] Kienamaru: Then there was the time that I wanted to do a bugfix patch
[2/20/2015 9:27:19 PM] Pin Clock: We did all we could with Pichu and we weren't going to delay the already announced 3.3 just for that
[2/20/2015 9:27:33 PM] Pin Clock: and yeah, that patch was called 3.5
[2/20/2015 9:27:33 PM] Kienamaru: It would've helped.
[2/20/2015 9:27:44 PM] Kienamaru: That patch was stupid. 3.5 was great
[2/20/2015 9:28:00 PM] Kienamaru: but the fact that I had to literally get the entire BR to voice FIRMLY what they thought
[2/20/2015 9:28:07 PM] Kienamaru: just so you would see that it was a good idea
[2/20/2015 9:28:16 PM] Kienamaru: and then you had to have an hour long conversation with Thunda
[2/20/2015 9:28:22 PM] Kienamaru: just to put some reasoning into your head
[2/20/2015 9:28:31 PM] Kienamaru: Before you finally realized that you were overreacting
[2/20/2015 9:28:39 PM] Pin Clock: You're going to have to refresh my memory on what was going on
[2/20/2015 9:28:45 PM] Kienamaru: And even then, you had to make the patch more than just bugfixes
[2/20/2015 9:29:04 PM] Pin Clock: oh yeah because just a bugfix patch is neat but I'd rather add more stuff
[2/20/2015 9:29:20 PM] Pin Clock: if we had an automatic patcher I wouldn't mind
[2/20/2015 9:29:27 PM] Pin Clock: or if we were in beta I wouldn't mind
[2/20/2015 9:29:37 PM] Kienamaru: There's nothing wrong with manual patching.
[2/20/2015 9:29:51 PM] Pin Clock: I even said "hey let's get an automatic patcher so bugfixes can be made easy!"
[2/20/2015 9:29:54 PM] Kienamaru: If we did that still, people would've been a lot more pleased with waiting for 4.0 for so long
[2/20/2015 9:29:55 PM] Pin Clock: no one leapt
[2/20/2015 9:30:04 PM] Kienamaru: Because making an auto patcher isn't easy.
[2/20/2015 9:30:17 PM] Pin Clock: Sammi said he could if he looked into it and Glitch was interested as well
[2/20/2015 9:30:19 PM] Pin Clock: neither acted
[2/20/2015 9:30:54 PM] Kienamaru: Regardless of who did what, it's not hard for us to compile and organize a patch full of fixes.
[2/20/2015 9:31:00 PM] Kienamaru: Sometimes, games need polish over new things
[2/20/2015 9:31:07 PM] Kienamaru: Destiny is a shining example of that.
[2/20/2015 9:31:14 PM] Pin Clock: You know
[2/20/2015 9:31:20 PM] Pin Clock: you don't have to go to the destiny website
[2/20/2015 9:31:23 PM] Pin Clock: download the patch
[2/20/2015 9:31:27 PM] Pin Clock: and manually insert the files
[2/20/2015 9:31:29 PM] Pin Clock: right
[2/20/2015 9:31:38 PM] Kienamaru: You don't.
[2/20/2015 9:31:42 PM] Kienamaru: but it takes just as long.
[2/20/2015 9:31:43 PM] Pin Clock: then you have no point
[2/20/2015 9:31:49 PM] Kienamaru: I have a point.
[2/20/2015 9:31:52 PM] Pin Clock: because it's the automatic aspect
[2/20/2015 9:31:58 PM] Kienamaru: Everyone LIKED downloading the files in the betas
[2/20/2015 9:32:00 PM] Pin Clock: that I'm getting at
[2/20/2015 9:32:08 PM] Kienamaru: they thought it was fun to see what each new week would bring
[2/20/2015 9:32:11 PM] Pin Clock: Jesus christ talking with you is
[2/20/2015 9:32:12 PM] Pin Clock: once again
[2/20/2015 9:32:15 PM] Pin Clock: going fucking nowhere
[2/20/2015 9:32:19 PM] Pin Clock: I'm out
[2/20/2015 9:32:23 PM] Kienamaru: Right.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
I don't think the people can really decide based upon hearing one side of the situation, so I feel as if it's only natural that I provide my side of the story as well.

It's story time, so I shall tell you a dev room's tale of Brawl Minus' development

Most of this will be building based upon facts that Sammi has already established, such as Kien bringing personal manners into game development that do not belong in game development, amongst other things.

Back when Moo added me to the Brawl Minus team in the times before 2.x.6 was released, I had only desires to to do my part the the best Brawl Minus that could be released would be released, and always wanted to further development and push the envelope further and further each update of beta. For example, when the beta started to slack, it was my idea to push The Storm Update, and develop a system that everyone wouldn't feel rushed every wednesday-friday by pushing out a few small beta updates and follow those by one large one. This system worked well for developers and myself when I was testing, and everything went pretty much swimmingly until MAX came out, after which point we all congratulated each other for our work and Minus, being "Maximized" was considered done.

Then time passed and the community began to have issues with certain aspects of MAX, which made me want to give the community a Valentine's gift in rebalancing Minus to be more enjoyable for everyone. When I proposed it to Moo, he liked the idea, but said that he was too busy with life to direct it, and passed the duty on to me and that's pretty much how I started to direct Minus. The word "Leader" is simple and more to the point of the role, but really I simply oversee all development and proposals.

So what went wrong?

There were disagreements on how things should be balanced that started off as debates and turned into arguments. I'm not going to name any specific instances (R.O.B.), but it was all rough and no one could come to terms on how things should be handled. And it wasn't just between Kien and I. Sammi, Glyph, Gold, Mech, Tybis, and anyone else not mentioned, everyone had their own views on what was "not nerfed enough" and "nerfed too much". Our goal of providing balance was vague as we never knew where the fine line was. Then it got nasty and personal. People started accusing each other of bias, and saying their views were better based upon their skills in the game, and that those who played better designed better, which really doesn't make much sense. Those who design better are better designers. Those who mostly debated these changes and considered skill the highest were the first to leave after being tired of disagreements. Glyph was one of those people. There was also an incident with Kien involving Link's infamous "37% damage fTilt jesus christ" and all of us requesting that be nerfed. The only way Kien would agree to this was if we sped up Mortal Draw. Personally this makes no sense, as nerfing one thing is not an excuse to buff another thing without seeing if said thing needs buffing in the first place. But ultimately we went with it since it didn't seem worth battling further.

After 1.01, I wanted to go back to that pushing the envelope thing I did before, and proposed adding Pichu to the game as Brawl Minus' first new character, as well as create a more polished game. At the time we had recruited TSON, the co-founder of Minus and responsible for most of the original coding, who agreed with this mindset. An argument involving coin element on Luigi's dTilt had ultimately caused Ellipsis to quit the team, who had disagreed with this change. Ellipsis later returned and apologized for acting irrationally, and agreed on removing the coin element on Luigi's dTilt. The development went on for months, with the community, as well as Glyph and Kien, pushing for a release date. I did my job of calculating when things would be ready by asking everyone involved in the coding of Pichu and other things, and between the two dates I proposed, April 29th and April 22nd, April 22nd was the day voted upon. The 22nd was, needless to say, a very very busy day. The vBrawl CSS had still not been made, and we had to rush out that at the last minute. Once that was all set, we transferred both versions off and had it ready for upload. But there was a mistake somewhere, and a test build was uploaded instead! Naturally we did what we could to rectify the situation as soon as possible! I wanted to keep my promise of getting the game out on the 22nd, but at the same time it was my mistake to not test the uploaded build, and delay the release of the game when that happened, and I have taken responsibility and apologized on several occasions soon after this happened. There was another incident with Kien. It was discovered that Mortal Draw could be combo'd into. Mortal Draw is an OHKO so that's uh really kinda unhealthy. Kien insisted on this change staying in, as he did not his main Link to be any weaker, and felt that the only one who should defeat Ganon's OHKO Punch should be Link with a better OHKO for Lore reasons that really had nothing to do with Minus balance. Mortal Draw got slowed down after a long battle.

3.5 was mostly smooth sailing. The removal of the SEP caused us to pick and choose what stages remained in the game, though. This is where I will directly confront one of Kien's points, regarding the stagelist. All of us in the dev room decided which stages would remain in the game based upon their popularity and how frequently they were played, which is how we wound up with a stage list very close to the one we have today. Some stages may be similar to others, like YS Melee, Battlefield, Dream Greens, and FoD, but when deciding which we would take out, we had decided against it due to A. All of these stages offering something unique, as well as being popular in their own right and B. There wasn't a stage to replace them with. Also Gold left during this period for his own reasons, as well as Glitch, who never really left the team but instead isn't a BR. Naturally he's still working on this very site and supporting Minus outside of the game itself.

3.Q had two bumps in the road during development: The first one is an incident once again revolving around R.O.B. basically, Kien made a new R.O.B. build form vBrawl, that focused on making him pretty much a zoner. Not only did it miss R.O.B.'s basic design in its execution (R.O.B. by design is a character who uses his projectiles to create openings and then rush in for combos).The build was fairly wonky and still needed a lot of things determined, and its proposal did not sound popular on the forums, so this R.O.B. build was ultimately rejected, and R.O.B. was once again given nerfs instead. The other was bigger, and this was related to SAHunterMech, who proposed a Gan-NUKE in place of the Gandouken, which was similar to Falcon's Punch aura in 2.x.6, in which the would be huge GFX hitbox surrounding the punch, only rather than Falcon's multihit, this would be a single hit. This sounded nice on paper, so it was developed and tested. And during testing, it had the same problems Falcon's, which was discourage actual edgeguarding and just use punches on the edge. Mech tried to rework it, but ultimately nothing worked right, so it was scrapped. Mech was upset and left, but is willing to work on non-fighter things if needed.

Now let's get to 4.0 development, and where we are today. There was another incident with Kien. The first is the Venus Lighthouse incident. When discussing stages, Kien proposed Venus Lighthouse. It was debated and people liked it, but Tybis and I expressed concern for anti-competition (we have since changed our minds, but this was our mindset at the time). This caused Kien to create a thread which, since this was a BR discussion and BR discussions should not be brought out to the public, I deleted on sight. This caused another incident with Kien, involving him acting against the interests of the BR and sending mass PMs. It gave us a view on Venus Lighthouse, but not in the way we wanted to get that view. Kien lost PM privileges and we agreed to reconsider Venus Lighthouse. There was another incident with Kien. While discussing Lavaville vs Norfair, a debate now known on the forums, BPC's request was brought up, and the two of us got in a hot debate about stages and the value of the request. We ultimately decided on what is now known in the 4.0 preview changelog, thanks to Moo messaging BPC himself about the matter. Despite it already being resolved and not involving him at all, Kien wrote a long essay and essentially left the dev room in a fit of rage. I had no interest in reading as the first two paragraphs were all personal insults towards me, and if the beginning of it was just mocking me and spitting on my image, I saw no reason why I should have to read further. Then several weeks later, there was another incident with Kien. Tybis mentioned Kien wanting to come back to the BR, so as leader I went to talk to Kien myself. Kien's immediate response was something along the lines of "Well my wishes were already broken because I wish to never talk to you again". We tried debating terms which were essentially listening to each other more. Since Kien has actually left the BR in fits of rage several times before, I figured I should test it this time. The results were...disappointing, to say the least. We can talk the talk together, but we just simply cannot walk the walk. And on top of this, the dev room since Kien's absence has been much more peaceful. I'll even confess, there was even relief from multiple people when he left. There were no arguments that lead to nowhere, no long essays, no personal attacks on one another, things were just...starting to work. Several people asides myself have shown that They don't want Kien back. All of these factors combined, alongside all of the aforementioned incidents, let me reach the conclusion to decline Kien reentry into the backroom.

And here we are today. Kien further harassed me pushing for him to get in, but I decided to block Kien since talking to him was only causing me stress and nothing seemed to change on either party. Kien then sent out mass PMs discussing a community uprising against me (which I learned of thanks to an anonymous tip) and telling the community that I am some sort of tyrant because I have the flaw that was mentioned in this thread (I skimmed, will reply to individual posts later) that if I'm not confident in someone's abilities, I shoot their ideas down if they don't seem right a little too early. As anyone else currently in the BR can tell you, I'm rather trustworthy of the likes of Sammi and Tybis, and Maw has warmed up to me very quickly. Nowhere in any point has Kien shown me that he knows "what he's doing", from his intense bias towards the Zelda franchise to making questionable changes to various characters (3.Q Dorf, among the others I already mentioned), and on top of that his personal vendetta and arrogant attitude against me only pushed me to trust him less as a team member. This is a fate that could have been avoided if both of us were a little different and more open to one another, but we have passed that point now, I am afraid.

Anyways, the thread has brought attention to the dev room and we all discussed this thread as well as my leadership, and came to the conclusion that I'm a fair leader to the team and that this thread was more unneeded drama, but did make us want to involve ourselves in the community more. We love the community, it's just we're busy with our lives too, but if it lets you trust us more as a development team, we are willing to make more time for the ones we make our game for.

and now we're discussing trading card games.

And that is my story.

TL;DR there were a lot of mistakes over Minus history, and I list a few incidents in which Kien and I got in debates that should not have happened and never ended well. Kien left the BR in rage and got even more enraged when I decided to not let him back in due to the fact that he acted against the BR. He's a capable coder but not a team player. We're going to work to involve ourselves more as a dev team with our community. Trading card games.

Now after writing the longest post I've ever made, it's time to read the rest of this thread and respond to individual posters. Feel free to reply to this one with any questions as well, and I will kindly answer them.

Glad to get your side of the story.

This makes me realize something - I think I should do what I need to in order to become a part of the backroom.

It sounds like there's some strife, some other issues, etc. With the few exceptions of me wanting things that are silly [and if shown broken, I'll back down - but aerial Warlock Punch isn't broken <_<], I think I tend to have an eye for balance, in that I can often see when something is dumb and when something is ok or underpowered [I remember that I kept talking about how good Falco is, while not actually destroying most MUs, and people called me weird until owo took 2nd in the online tournament, including beating Glyph's Ness]. I'd like a shot at offering input on various things at least.

I also am someone who attempts to manage conflict and soothe issues, and try to reach reasonable compromises [not popular, but reasonable]. I have improving still, so I think I could reasonably assess various things [Kien has played me, I know I've played MS a few different times, and Aether and I have had hilarious experiences]. I think, in any case, that I might be able to help resolve disputes - possibly arrogant, but I know there are times where I have prioritized resolving group disputes [not just ignoring them] over being right or getting my way, and it sounds like the BR could use a member like that. I also think I have some pretty solid ideas if they can be coded in [like the firebird suggestions I made earlier, unless people like Falco being almost ungimpable without superb repeated projectile aim].

I also should've known people would paint you as poorly as possible. Some stuff sounds off still, but we're all human [except I continue to think of Darxmarx as a Kirby at keyboard holding a Wiimote with stubby arms ^_^ and maybe that's just plain weird...].

I think, given the "Pin vs devs" things, it would be a great idea to make an account called "Brawl Minus dev team" or something, and then when you wanted to be representative of the dev team, you use that, and when you want to give your say, just be Pin Clock. Role confusion doesn't help because it makes you seem very distant, which is where part of the problem stems from.

Also, Magic the Gathering, Yugioh, or what?

And I appreciate the leader vs coder thing - I'd normally expect them to be the same, but at the same time now I could also see how that might be a conflict of interest [coding things the leader doesn't agree with by the leader? um...]

[I might've forgot some stuff, but this is most of it.]

P.S: I don't think the kind of MK the changelog implied is healthy from a teams standpoint - think about what MK Sheik, MK Ganondorf, MK Lucario, or MK-combo-heavy-character could do... one just racks damage, and MK uses his obscene KB to KO. I will also state it's kind of annoying to play as, and that I thoroughly enjoyed his reversion away from those stats [it's why I picked him up at all]. But this isn't really the time or place for that sort of discussion.
 

Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
A poll? I fear people will only vote after Kien's OP and not reading the whole thread...

This makes me realize something - I think I should do what I need to in order to become a part of the backroom.
Pick up some PSAing tools and learn how to use them! It doesn't take much experience required and is easy to get started on (I actually coded a few things myself, like Peach's taunt cancel, MK's fSmash endlag fixes, and please don't hate me but figuring out how to remove the cancel on Warlock Punch), and we're more than willing to help those who want to learn further, it's just we wish to make sure that you're not only willing to code, but also understand how coding works and how to do it. If I can you can, so if you want to I encourage you to go for it and, when you feel ready, make an application in the application forum!

I also should've known people would paint you as poorly as possible. Some stuff sounds off still, but we're all human [except I continue to think of Darxmarx as a Kirby at keyboard holding a Wiimote with stubby arms ^_^
brb dying of cute

I think, given the "Pin vs devs" things, it would be a great idea to make an account called "Brawl Minus dev team" or something, and then when you wanted to be representative of the dev team, you use that, and when you want to give your say, just be Pin Clock. Role confusion doesn't help because it makes you seem very distant, which is where part of the problem stems from.
Even if, I'm still considered "that guy who runs the Brawl Minus thing" so =/

Also, Magic the Gathering, Yugioh, or what?
It was both, actually

And I appreciate the leader vs coder thing - I'd normally expect them to be the same, but at the same time now I could also see how that might be a conflict of interest [coding things the leader doesn't agree with by the leader? um...
I understand how things work in Brawl, but I don't do much of the coding. It's also required for anyone leading anything to understand what exactly it is they're leading. If I knew nothing about how the game worked I'd be completely lost, and not that good of a leader from it.

P.S: I don't think the kind of MK the changelog implied is healthy from a teams standpoint - think about what MK Sheik, MK Ganondorf, MK Lucario, or MK-combo-heavy-character could do... one just racks damage, and MK uses his obscene KB to KO. I will also state it's kind of annoying to play as, and that I thoroughly enjoyed his reversion away from those stats [it's why I picked him up at all]. But this isn't really the time or place for that sort of discussion.
Make a thread about the matter! This can encourage more discussion as well as provide information we can use to determine what to do with him! Remember it all can be changed until it's out!
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Now it's time for me to start responding to some points Pin made. Evidently I argued with other people as well. I can recall a few times when I wanted Tybis to stop intentionally annoying me. I wouldn't call that an argument. I've disagreed with Sammi's thoughts on Lucario being balanced, I've disagreed with some of Mech's ideas as well. However, Mech and I never argued. PK and I never argued. Numbuh and I didn't argue. The only other person I ever argued with was Sonicbrawler because he was always coming out with some snide ass immature remark unfitting of someone in high school even. I could've ignored him, but that would just be rude.

As for more community involvement, it's a damned shame I had to go this far just to get you to actually decide that listening to the community and being active in it is actually worth something. I won't apologize for settling things "behind the BR's back," I can't imagine anyone else in the BR felt that everything had to be a secret (though I could be wrong.)

Then there was the Link's Ftilt problem. I don't know how you got me keeping fast MD as the "only way" to get me to revert the changes. I distinctly remember the added slight shield damage being the thing that made me okay with it. After it was shown to me that MD could be combod into projectiles I decided it wasn't worth the trouble because I made it for my projectileless Link mod. I stopped arguing it instantly more or less and attempted an MD that was about 20 frames faster than the first one we had because a 2 second move is still very slow. However, Thunda convinced me that the full twirly action of the sword made it look cooler for the entire thing. And that there felt like it was more reward for landing an attack that takes THAT LONG. The thrill of landing something that doesn't happen everyday.

The ROB rebuild wasn't actually wonky at all. Gold and myself both thought that ROB was feeling extremely good and powerful. He was different because he wasn't good at everything. He also offered something unique to the game in being a heavyweight spacer who used unique setups and his projectiles to score what would've been the majority of his KOs, while still having the power to do so physically if need be. He still felt very much ROB, but he didn't have something for everything.

It's kind of odd that you have somehow managed to miss the fact that I know what I'm doing when designing characters. Even though a few of my builds are regarded as some of the most solid characters in Minus. Sheik, Toon Link, Zelda, and Ike for a time. Though Ike has come under criticism after I started focusing on adding to NSM. NSM was me being experimental with one character since it didn't seem that everyone was open for huge changes throughout the roster. I figured, Ike is already solid. If I just add things onto him that are completely optional, the players won't be upset that he has them because they don't make him any worse.

Anyway, enough out of me for a few minutes.
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
You missed arguing with Glyph like erry day :p just saiyan.

EDIT: I also would say we haven't "argued" persay. We've discussed things, and had differing opinions. But we've always come to an understanding and ending up getting work done. We've actually worked together nerfing a few characters, specifically when i wanted to nerf lucario more, once in a blue moon if i recall correctly.
 
Top