Kien's Custom Minus Build

Neville

GG M8s
Minus Backroom
@Kienamaru Less landing lag on Peach's fair makes her play waaaayyy faster. Also dair gimps are fun to play around with and make her ledge guarding game much better and also allows her to mix up her combos on the ground. Just thoughts from what I've seen so far. IS this the Peach that will be in the next version of Minus?
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
There's a chance that it is. There may or may not be at least 2 other characters in there who will be in the next Minus as well. WHO KNOWS?!
 

Doqtor Kirby

Resident Design Nitpicker
Minus Backroom
YO JIGGTH CONFIRMED?
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
YO JIGGTH CONFIRMED?

I was under the impression that you didn't like the look of my mod. But since you're here you may as well test out Jigglypuff and give some feedback and suggestions. This is only the first step after all. Once everyone is done I plan to bring power to everyone who needs it. Once they're done, I'll bring even more to make the game high powered again.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Bent- After testing out Ganon and learning the new stuff about him let me know if you still think he needs safe wp. I tried to download yours earlier and it was a 0 file. I don't even know what that is.
He still needs the Safe Flying Warlock Punch with flub hitboxes IMO. I can say that before testing. :)

SFWP is showing up as a .0 file because I named it "SFWP v1.0". My mistake, thought I fixed it... Try renaming it, changing the extensions to what they should be.

I had to give Falcon that 2% nerf. Falcon kick is too good a combo starter to also deal high damage. He might see more nerfs further down the line but they won't be major if he does.
That's fine. Didn't see Falcon in the changelog -- any other changes? You didn't make Falcon Kick cancel on-hit only, did you? I hope not.

Zelda feels really good to me like this. You might not like her but she's deadlier when she needs to be. I know I haven't fixed the issue with her dtilt gfx so don't point that out.
I'll try her out, at least. Didn't you say one of the button setups doesn't feel right, though?
I've tested this build and Zelda actually feels nice. Though Z is not the right button for the job.
 
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Doqtor Kirby

Resident Design Nitpicker
Minus Backroom
I was under the impression that you didn't like the look of my mod. But since you're here you may as well test out Jigglypuff and give some feedback and suggestions. This is only the first step after all. Once everyone is done I plan to bring power to everyone who needs it. Once they're done, I'll bring even more to make the game high powered again.
I can do that, but if this blasted 3.# up-air haunts me again..........
Jiggth? That's a weird way to spell Cole McGrath.
Cole McGrath can go home to his PlayStation games. THIS! IS! NINTENDO!
*ganon sparta kicks cole mcgrath*
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Just updated the changelog. Nah, that 2% nerf is all Falcon received. I'm not sure if he needs flub hitboxes as he's going to have a safe flying warlock punch that deals 666 damage. Zelda's button setup has been fixed. I went ahead and took the other route, slowing her bair to fair speed so that you can do them both comfortably.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Done. I need to test it out before I put it in here though. I'm sure Jiggly can dominate using a vertical sending move while in the air.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Just updated the changelog. Nah, that 2% nerf is all Falcon received.
Good. While we're talking about Falcon, how about making his Side Taunt cancellable at frame 90 instead of frame 99?

Falcon's hand stops moving right at frame 90, so it makes sense.

I'm not sure if he needs flub hitboxes as he's going to have a safe flying warlock punch that deals 666 damage.
In my SFWP tweak, I gave the SFWP the following...

Aerial S.F.W.P. Flub Hitboxes
- Single 20% damage Flub Hitbox active frames 72-83 (terminating frame 84).
- Direction=361, BaseKnockback=10, WeightKnockback=0, KockbackGrowth=100.

"I added those in because 'Dorf's fist is A.) flying forward at a good speed, and B.) on fire. The flub hitboxes last until the purple flames disappear entirely. I made the flub hitboxes do 20% damage since F-Air does 16%, and it is A.) much faster and easier to land, B.) less predictable, and C.) not on fire."

They're not overpowered because they're so easy to see coming. Only opponents who are trying to recover low are at really at risk; recover mid to high and you'll jump right over the flub hitboxes. Offstage F-Air, Wiz Kick, or even Flame Choke will always be more reliable options -- the SFWP flub hitboxes are for style. As for the 666 damage, well, that's only active for 2 frames, so the SFWP is pretty underwhelming with just that. The flub hitboxes make it more reliable. After much testing, I think they should actually be active frames 71-85 (terminating frame 86).

Zelda's button setup has been fixed. I went ahead and took the other route, slowing her bair to fair speed so that you can do them both comfortably.
Would you elaborate more on this new Zelda setup? A does close range, no ranged hitbox, while Z does the opposite, is that right? So with Z, do I still hold to teleport and tap to not teleport?
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Jiggs Uair was originally made to not hit up because it scored childishly easy rest combos that instakilled..... Tell me it doesn't allow that? Also, Jiggs already had an amazing Uair before. It was said that it would be looked at because it was too good but nothing untill now has ever been done.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Good. While we're talking about Falcon, how about making his Side Taunt cancellable at frame 90 instead of frame 99?

Falcon's hand stops moving right at frame 90, so it makes sense.


Would you elaborate more on this new Zelda setup? A does close range, no ranged hitbox, while Z does the opposite, is that right? So with Z, do I still hold to teleport and tap to not teleport?

I could do that.
For Ganon I was more checking your PSA to see what kind of momentum values you used so I could make something that looks and feels appropriate.

As for Zelda, I'm pretty sure the updated changelog states it. Unless I messed up. I scrapped Z for A. It goes with her theme anyway since all of her aerials outside of nair have hold A functions and similarly slow startups. Holding A creates the teleport box but only has sourspot damage if up close. While tapping A has a permanent lightning kick up close but no ranged box.
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
For Ganon I was more checking your PSA to see what kind of momentum values you used so I could make something that looks and feels appropriate.
I'll be sending you a message shortly with my latest 'Dorf build.

As for Zelda, I'm pretty sure the updated changelog states it. Unless I messed up. I scrapped Z for A. It goes with her theme anyway since all of her aerials outside of nair have hold A functions and similarly slow startups. Holding A creates the teleport box but only has sourspot damage if up close. While tapping A has a permanent lightning kick up close but no ranged box.
Now that sounds workable. I look forward to trying it out.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
Kienamaru, you asked me to fill you in on what Pikachu needs. Well...

A) I might just suck with it, but I know for sure at some point QAC was removed and instead he has an attack cancel on frame 2. I thought when I went in it was a jump cancel, but I couldn't seem to jump cancel when I did a QA into the ground. If this is true, I'd kind of like the ability to jump-cancel the endlag too (so it would function like a normal QAC too), but since there is an attack cancel it doesn't have to I suppose (and if it's got one, that's me not doing things right I guess).

B) On the same note - I think QA has no endlag, even when done high - try doing it straight up, then when he lands watch him get up, then do it again but wiggle the cstick like crazy as he's landing - you'll do a smash almost immediately. Intentional? It's cool, but...

C) Did you check his side smash shield damage? One uncharged fsmash can almost break a shield - I have pulled off bair someone's shield -> QAC -> fsmash (since the attack cancel) and broken it [though of course acting out of shield would have stopped this], but I don't know if you can QAC -> fsmash someone's shield for a very-difficult-to-dodge shield break [not sure if QA has enough shield damage for this to work]. I have no idea why it does so much shield damage in the first place (it's very unsafe on shield if it doesn't break it I believe), but I think you should check it out if you didn't know about it. Also, as a Pikachu player I kind of like it, but it just strikes me as bizarre whenever it hits a shield...

D) On the topic of fsmash, I've had people SDI Pikachu fsmash to avoid the KO - can we go to the angling/non-angling method for his fsmash again so fsmash can always have the strong hit landed when needed? I don't need a multi-hit fsmash that can be SDI'd at 200%, I just want the single-hit KO, but that occasionally happens. Same problem for >75% Lucario I believe. If this is just a general design choice though, it's fine (that is, if people want multi-hit fsmashes for everything, ok).

E) I don't exactly know what Pikachu needs per se... I think he's solidly built as is in Minus 3.Q, and it seems you only buffed him. I'll see if Sunderstorm will agree to try this build out I guess...

On the topic of Falco:

From a glance, you seem to have increased his ability to convert on what he gets, but made it harder for him to get in. I think in Minus 3.Q he has a few options, but most of his close ones rely on reflector for safety. That may make him too safe, but considering his easy of comboability and light weight, I never really thought so. Dsmash being buffed is kind of nice, but that's the move I use least for KOs - I usually get them with some sort of fsmash read or an upsmash (Brawl Falco mode I guess). Or a fair chain. I'll see how he plays now if I get this and tell you what I think.
 

Baby_Sneak

Well-Known Member
A few things:


3.) Why did ICs get so many buffs? They were already solid, and dair was already scary...
in all actually, the ICs don't have a reliable option to dmg opponents with consistency. desync only goes so far and the chain grab locks are DIable, Techable, and SDIable.
 

Darxmarx

The Learning Star Warrior
I really think if he was lighter weight all of his strengths would be much more easily justified.
I'm perfectly fine with a change like that. I just hope he doesn't become Jigglypuff light. Take as much time as you need with Kirby.

I really like the fused Samus you made. One of my favorite changes has to be the new Screw Attack. I'm just wondering why didn't you use 3.Q's fair. That one links into itself much better.

Link is also pretty neat. The different ftilts are nice additions, and I can finally use the Jump Strike as a dash attack. :D
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
3.Q Samus's hits link perfectly due to her fall speed. I'll have to tune this Samus' hitboxes until they pretty much always connect.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
in all actually, the ICs don't have a reliable option to dmg opponents with consistency. desync only goes so far and the chain grab locks are DIable, Techable, and SDIable.

It's not that they desync and chain grab. You're thinking it too hard and trying to make them like Brawl or Melee.

They just run in and whack you. They aren't very slow on the ground or in the air, they have aerials that combo into each other and a combo finishing aerial (dair), and on tech reads they can literally start charging dsmash and slide where they need to be, among other things. Camping them is a silly proposition for everyone but maybe Fox and Falco (they have lasers to beat out icebergs... I don't think others do). And they still can interrupt grab attempts. The stuff you listed is icing on the cake.

I don't do fancy ICs stuff when I play them, I just play them like I'd play the character if there was only one of them (except a good recovery). I think they function rather fine like that. Do you disagree?
 
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