Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
I disagree. however, we don't have any legit ICs to test our theories.
Kien's Custom Minus Build
- Thread starter Kien
- Start date
Thor
Well-Known Member
Then Sneak (best) and I (random) should do a mirror match...
once I get access to a Wi-Fi compatible setup [since I still don't have my Wii... : ( ]
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
I might be the best around (idk), but I'm still maad weak with them.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Just finished testing your Zelda changes, @Kienamaru. Here are my thoughts and observations.
I'm fine with these changes:
The Farore's Wind Buff is especially nice. It's great to have one of her SSB4 K.O. moves in Minus too.
On the other hand, I don't approve of these changes:
I don't like these changes because they don't do anything except make Zelda a bit harder to play as. These tweaks don't remove or limit any of her abilities; Zelda's as strong as ever. It's just easier to make mistakes and use the wrong move now. So what's the point? Zelda was technical enough as she was in 3.Q, so why make her even more complicated? A Zelda main like myself can get used to these new hurdles pretty easily. They only steepen her learning curve.
The changes to Zelda's 3 warping aerials do not mesh well with the rest of her moveset. Dash Attack, Jab, F-Smash, U-Smash, U-Tilt, and D-Tilt still have two hitboxes that come out simultaneously; you don't have to choose between near or far hitboxes, you get both. It doesn't make sense to limit Zelda's warping aerials in this way unless you also limit the rest of her moves which have near and far hitboxes. And if you did that, Zelda would become entirely too sensitive to timing mistakes. It wouldn't even work for her Smashes, since holding the A button is dedicated to Charging.
Zelda is a character based around accuracy. Giving her a mechanic like this, which makes it too easy to use the wrong move by accident and drop a combo, only distracts the player needlessly. It's an artificial difficulty barrier, like L-Cancelling. Who is this supposed to satisfy?
There are a few other problems too, mostly with D-Air:
- D-Air can not Lightning Kick a grounded opponent, only Weak Kick.
- Unlike F-Air and B-Air, D-Air can still be Flubbed in the last few frames.
- Landing a D-Air Lightning Kick from the side can send a target up, instead of down.
- Ranged D-Air is missing SFX and GFX (compare to F-Air or B-Air). Distant spark only appears if Z is held.
- Unlike Ranged F-Air / B-Air, Z must be held to Warp via Ranged D-Air.
- Immediately after a Lightning Kick, you can still trigger a ranged sparkle, albeit with no hitbox.
- The Weak Kick part of Ranged D-Air seems to have a rather large hitbox.
- The Weak Kick part of Ranged D-Air is a rather strong Meteor Smash for being so weak otherwise -- it sends foes down quickly, but they can save themselves easily with a Jump or Up-B (it's not a true Spike like Sonic's D-Air in 3.Q). Compare this to Flubbed D-Air, which barely launches opponents down at all.
I recommend reverting Zelda's warping aerials back to 3.Q. Everything else you added is fine.
What's the point of the extra hitlag on Farore's Wind, though?
Consider speeding up Zelda's Grab a little. It's still one of the slowest grabs in the game IIRC.
I wonder if Zelda would benefit from being able to warp via U-Tilt and D-Tilt...
---
Last of all, a few quick comments about other characters:
- Samus can infinite bomb-jump, and even gain altitude this way.
- Personally, I thought 3.Q Link was fine. He didn't need that many Nerfs. I miss Ending Blow. Jump Slash animation looks really jerky slowed down. I recommend switching back to 3.Q Link, and dropping most of those Nerfs.
- As Mario, if you land on the ground mid-Fire Brand, Mario's Fireball attack will gain the weak hits on his hand from Fire Brand, until a Fire Brand attack is completed without interruption. If you let go of B immediately after holding it just long enough to trigger Fire Brand, the big fireball GFX will be missing. Annoyingly, he will now say "Ha!" whenever he throws Fireballs like this. I call it "Ha Mode".
- You Nerfed Ike's Aetherial Blast even more? It was already a very poor option -- now it's a joke. It can't K.O. a Yoshi (who can D.I.) from the middle of F.D. until it's at ~130% damage. If you hit with regular Aether, your opponent will take 23% damage. Holding B at the end will boost that damage to 39%, but it deals 24% damage to Ike and uses up his No Sympathy Mode charge. No decent Ike would ever use this on purpose. Speaking of which, it's easy to trigger by accident. If you're going to make Aetherial Blast worse than it was in 3.Q, you should just remove it entirely. If you leave it in, make it harder to trigger accidentally -- make it "Hold B + A" instead of just B, perhaps? I still think Ike should be able to charge and store Eruption completely separately from No Sympathy Mode, BTW.
I'm fine with these changes:
1 tiny Nerf, 3 Buffs, and 1 bugfix. I can't complain about these.
The Farore's Wind Buff is especially nice. It's great to have one of her SSB4 K.O. moves in Minus too.
On the other hand, I don't approve of these changes:
I don't like these changes because they don't do anything except make Zelda a bit harder to play as. These tweaks don't remove or limit any of her abilities; Zelda's as strong as ever. It's just easier to make mistakes and use the wrong move now. So what's the point? Zelda was technical enough as she was in 3.Q, so why make her even more complicated? A Zelda main like myself can get used to these new hurdles pretty easily. They only steepen her learning curve.
The changes to Zelda's 3 warping aerials do not mesh well with the rest of her moveset. Dash Attack, Jab, F-Smash, U-Smash, U-Tilt, and D-Tilt still have two hitboxes that come out simultaneously; you don't have to choose between near or far hitboxes, you get both. It doesn't make sense to limit Zelda's warping aerials in this way unless you also limit the rest of her moves which have near and far hitboxes. And if you did that, Zelda would become entirely too sensitive to timing mistakes. It wouldn't even work for her Smashes, since holding the A button is dedicated to Charging.
Zelda is a character based around accuracy. Giving her a mechanic like this, which makes it too easy to use the wrong move by accident and drop a combo, only distracts the player needlessly. It's an artificial difficulty barrier, like L-Cancelling. Who is this supposed to satisfy?
There are a few other problems too, mostly with D-Air:
- D-Air can not Lightning Kick a grounded opponent, only Weak Kick.
- Unlike F-Air and B-Air, D-Air can still be Flubbed in the last few frames.
- Landing a D-Air Lightning Kick from the side can send a target up, instead of down.
- Ranged D-Air is missing SFX and GFX (compare to F-Air or B-Air). Distant spark only appears if Z is held.
- Unlike Ranged F-Air / B-Air, Z must be held to Warp via Ranged D-Air.
- Immediately after a Lightning Kick, you can still trigger a ranged sparkle, albeit with no hitbox.
- The Weak Kick part of Ranged D-Air seems to have a rather large hitbox.
- The Weak Kick part of Ranged D-Air is a rather strong Meteor Smash for being so weak otherwise -- it sends foes down quickly, but they can save themselves easily with a Jump or Up-B (it's not a true Spike like Sonic's D-Air in 3.Q). Compare this to Flubbed D-Air, which barely launches opponents down at all.
I recommend reverting Zelda's warping aerials back to 3.Q. Everything else you added is fine.
What's the point of the extra hitlag on Farore's Wind, though?
Consider speeding up Zelda's Grab a little. It's still one of the slowest grabs in the game IIRC.
I wonder if Zelda would benefit from being able to warp via U-Tilt and D-Tilt...
---
Last of all, a few quick comments about other characters:
- Samus can infinite bomb-jump, and even gain altitude this way.
- Personally, I thought 3.Q Link was fine. He didn't need that many Nerfs. I miss Ending Blow. Jump Slash animation looks really jerky slowed down. I recommend switching back to 3.Q Link, and dropping most of those Nerfs.
- As Mario, if you land on the ground mid-Fire Brand, Mario's Fireball attack will gain the weak hits on his hand from Fire Brand, until a Fire Brand attack is completed without interruption. If you let go of B immediately after holding it just long enough to trigger Fire Brand, the big fireball GFX will be missing. Annoyingly, he will now say "Ha!" whenever he throws Fireballs like this. I call it "Ha Mode".
- You Nerfed Ike's Aetherial Blast even more? It was already a very poor option -- now it's a joke. It can't K.O. a Yoshi (who can D.I.) from the middle of F.D. until it's at ~130% damage. If you hit with regular Aether, your opponent will take 23% damage. Holding B at the end will boost that damage to 39%, but it deals 24% damage to Ike and uses up his No Sympathy Mode charge. No decent Ike would ever use this on purpose. Speaking of which, it's easy to trigger by accident. If you're going to make Aetherial Blast worse than it was in 3.Q, you should just remove it entirely. If you leave it in, make it harder to trigger accidentally -- make it "Hold B + A" instead of just B, perhaps? I still think Ike should be able to charge and store Eruption completely separately from No Sympathy Mode, BTW.
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
Aether is very easy to land. It's basically a free kill at those percents and it isn't easy to trigger. It only triggers if you held B the entire way through. You shouldn't be doing that.
I agree that dair having a different input then her other aerials is odd.
Bent, the difference between her aerials and her other ranged hitboxes is that they can both hit bowser. That is a very fair change to me. Being able to always lightening kick is also very good and she gained a powerful upb as a kill move. Zelda is more powerful then she has ever been here. Limiting that power with a little higher skill curve is fair.
I agree that dair having a different input then her other aerials is odd.
Bent, the difference between her aerials and her other ranged hitboxes is that they can both hit bowser. That is a very fair change to me. Being able to always lightening kick is also very good and she gained a powerful upb as a kill move. Zelda is more powerful then she has ever been here. Limiting that power with a little higher skill curve is fair.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
Can we stop this limiting power and nerfing crap and just get better? I mean, how good do we think we are? Armada? ZeRo? Let's be real, we range from pretty good to real abysmal. I've been seeing this since 3.5 but it really hit me when you guys actually believed Zard was top 10 because of Nair spam.
It's sad.
It's sad.
Regarding Zelda. I somehow forgot that her dair was still coded to use Z. It should also be hold A. I'll fix that and add it in there. I think steepening a learning curve with something that actually defines a character is fine. Having a steep learning curve for a general technique just limits players from being even without knowing tricks, but when it's character specific it makes said character more technical. Also, she has among the strongest pummels in the game as well as powerful KO throws in every direction.
For Samus, why is that a problem? It's not that hard to stop a bomb jumping Samus.
I appreciate the link feedback and I may miss ending blow as well, but you have to admit that Jump Strike has it's uses placed as an alt dash attack. Ending Blow has some bugs that I have no idea how to fix, like the ones exploited in my Link combo thread. I originally had EB moved to alt smash attack but it caused Link to enter his charging state just after the animation ended. That allowed him to do the attack and instantly combo out of it with side smash. I'm sure there are a lot of people who think Link needed to be toned down. They aren't massive nerfs, but I think they should stop newcomer Link's from easily beating more seasoned players. Link was never meant to be a spammy character who sets up walls in 2 seconds flat. I always thought something felt off about him like he was too good. It's because he is extremely safe in Minus.
I'll have to look into those Mario bugs. Unlike the rest of the BR I'm not opposed to AB inputs so I might put firebrand on there. It would remove the buggy transitions I think. Possibly.
About Ike, Aetherial Blast isn't mean to be a fantastic kill move. It's supposed to be a gtfo version of Aether that can shatter a shield if blocked. The amount of damage it deals to him isn't much considering the output. I could put it on AB though. If I do I'll be putting everything else that is triggered through NS mode on AB as well. Is the bug in his fair gone? I think I fixed that. I don't know about storing Eruption separately. I think that would just be easy mode. There would be no precaution taken when using it.
I don't think getting better will balance the game. If I leave alone everyone that's already strong there will still be people like you and Glyph who swear that their characters aren't amazing. Just like most people didn't know Sonic was extremely good in Minus until fighting mine (and I still have a bit to learn) We have no definitive, we would need to know precisely who everyone thinks is garbage.
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Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
IDK man, Gold and Glyph are amazing.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Well, excuuuuuse me, princess!
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
getting better will better your knowledge. better knowledge on how the game works= not ignorant on how the game works at a HIGH lvl. nobody here is on that lvl (glyph and gold are really good, but they're not high lvl like that, i say about mid-high lvl and even if im wrong (most likely) glyph aint on here enough and so is gold). Also, chars that are strong should be left alone strong, its the other characters that need to be brought up (also: Zard's MUs are bi polar. i got be at a 80:20 almost when playing bowser in my favor, but be at a 90:10 playing pikachu. and its all because of zard having to rely on Nair, Stealth Rock, and Upsmash/Up-b all the time. but ima stop there because i know you guys arent going to change that). on that last part, THAT is the reason why we need to get better, its like noobs talking about kirby and ike is seriously OP and needs nerf, when high and top players know thats wrong.
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Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
I meant in context of brawl. But, I've shoudl had put that in there. My fault, bad writing
also, about pika, im no where near talking about a zoning pika, im talking about a rushdown pika. anyway, i have no moves to hit pika with that are all-around viable instead of situational. and jabs have short range.
But im more focused on my point. we can't throw around chnages w/o truely knowing that char. especially characters we're not maining or even using. Thats what getting better is for.
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Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Ice Climbers and Sonic are underused. Probably Lucas too. Also I think only me and IIRC Thor play Ness. Need him to confirm this tho. I don't even know why characters like these aren't being used.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
ok i will. I actually was gonna try it out but i forgot
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
well ICs require super technical capabilities so its clear. but mostly, its because of our extremely small playerbase
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Exactly why we need to expand.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
And here I thought I was the only Ness player. But what about Lucas?
Thor
Well-Known Member
I never said 'Zard was top 10 with nair spam, I said he would be easily if his fair actually had slight KB on the whole thing [wasn't minus on hit for some parts of it].
Kirby is a very high-risk high-reward character. To be honest I feel like he's what the original implementation intentions of MK were, before MK became fixed for teams (which I prefer his new version). But Kirby isn't OP (or else Darx got super duper good versus just really good, because he and I went about evenish and I was usually using Falco or 'Dorf, and my 'Dorf is fake XD).
Kirby may have low lag, but he has low range relative to most characters (like Falco's range, and now neither has a relatively safe reflector, not just Kirby not having one), so he has to actually get in. Falcon can just dash-dance on the other side of the stage from Kirby and if Kirby tries to approach he's gonna either get nair'd (outranges Kirby) or hit with something else if Kirby tries to approach with cutter or on the ground.
I personally think Kirby is very well-designed in Minus, and the standard to which we should attempt to balance characters.
Also I can attest that the 'Zard-Pikachu matchup is kind of silly. I don't think it's 90-10 but it feels Pikachu-favored (though I think you are a better 'Zard than he is from what I've seen, so I'd need to fight you to feel the MU out - and my Pikachu is sorta rush-down but I use a fair number of jolts when far away so I don't know).
I don't really play Ness (I kinda do in the way I kinda play Marth and some others), it's Glyph and Gold_TSG as the others said. I do enjoy Ness though.
I think @Tybis is basically our best Lucas, but I don't know - maybe Gold_TSG picked him up or someone else plays him?
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
@Kienamaru, tell me when you fix Zelda's D-Air, and I'll re-test her.