Custom Warlock Punch

[Greatest_Aether]

And I was talking about your location aether.

I know. I'm just saying that's a weird question to ask on this thread.

 

[Bent 00]

What is it?

It's better if you just read it. It's a long but entertaining article.

 

[justadood]

tl;dr, not the whole thing at least... but i have a similar idea in my head, however i call it Fluidity: if it doesn't connect into another move smoothly, then it ends smoothly... i don't like it suddenly ending out of nowhere, but i think if it was able to connect into another attack, like a forehand punch, after the backhand, it could look fluid, and may continue without feeling so choppy... however, that's just an example of what would feel fluid without having super long endlag, not a suggestion or idea i think should be used for this particular situation, especially since the idea is that once the initial punch lands, there shouldn't be anyone left in front of you to get hit by the second attack...

but i did think that, like little mac, the move should be a version that only comes out as that powerful if a certain prerequisite is met.. in little mac's case, it's damage dealt, in ganon's, maybe it could be punch attacks landed, or maybe it could be damage received? like a revenge punch that only consumes its charge once it lands... i don't like that its always OHKO, and like the devs i don't want it completely gone either, but i don't like that it's a guaranteed kill anytime it lands... i understand that the gandouken is supposed to be the other use, but there isn't anything particularly useful about it at all.. i remember they said it was going to be able to break projectiles before, but it never did as far as i remember, and i read that and tried it a lot after i saw it ...i'll cut this short, but the gadouken being more useful could make it less annoying that the WP OHKOs... ....somehow....

 

[Bent 00]

@Thor: Here's that Ganondorf build you requested.

It's the one from @Kien's Custom Build -- which is what's going into 4.0 AFAIK -- with only the following changes:

- Warlock Punch and Gandouken are no longer suicidal offstage. This was achieved by increasing vertical momentum to 1.5 from 0
- Added 5% damage-based armor to Neutral B, active frames 2-72 (there is a version without this)

That's about as minimal as it gets. Ganondorf doesn't drop to his doom like a dumb rock whenever he goes for an Offstage Warlock Punch.

The momentum boost was toned way down from what it was in SFWP; 'Dorf merely stalls in the air as he Punches now, instead of Flying upwards and forwards. The Flub Hitboxes are gone too. Only the 2-frame 666% O.H.K.O. remains.

Anyone who would like to try this, please do. This is a work-in-progress, and I'd appreciate any constructive feedback.

Download link: Safe Offstage Warlock Punch v0.5b

================
SOWP v0.7b UPDATE
================

At Kienamaru's suggestion, I've made a small update that boosts Ganondorf's damage-based armor on Warlock Punch from 5% to 7%. The SOWPv0.5b files are also included for comparison.

Download link: Safe Offstage Warlock Punch v0.7b

These both work in Brawl- 3.Q.

 

[Thor]

I don't have anyone to test WITH per se, but if you are open tomorrow or sometime this week I'll figure out how to put it in my build before then [by figure out I mean read the instructions] and then we can play with it.

I can bring it back to college and play with the casual people I play with once in a blue moon, but then I can't really offer feedback on tweaks made.

 

[Bent 00]

It's easy to add in. You just go to the fighter > ganon folder and replace two files: FitGanon.pac and FitGanonMotionEtc.pac. Rename the old ones to something like "(3.Q Default) FitGanon.pac", and rename the new ones to the normal names.

I can test it with you online, just gotta set a time. Until then, try it against the CPU. Thanks.

P.S.: Use the attached .gct when we play online. It's the 3.Q codeset with the new WiFi code and the TYPE 3 Taunts = Footstool codes added in.

 

[Thor]

It's easy to add in. You just go to the fighter > ganon folder and replace two files: FitGanon.pac and FitGanonMotionEtc.pac. Rename the old ones to something like "(3.Q Default) FitGanon.pac", and rename the new ones to the normal names.

I can test it with you online, just gotta set a time. Until then, try it against the CPU. Thanks.

P.S.: Use the attached .gct when we play online. It's the 3.Q codeset with the new WiFi code and the TYPE 3 Taunts = Footstool codes added in.

What time works for you? Basically any time in the afternoon CST should work for me.

 

[Bent 00]

What time works for you? Basically any time in the afternoon CST should work for me.

I'm thinking late Thursday or mid-day Friday. Have you tried the SOWP against CPU yet?

I prefer the version with 5% armor, myself.

 

[Thor]

I'll do late Thursday. What time? [I'll try to check this around 7:00pm CST to see if you've responded, and again around 10:00pm... but if you post after that, it's probably going to be mid-day Friday.]

Also I'll try the thing that happens when I click the 3rd link in your signature. If that has armor, it has armor... if not, it doesn't. Armor seems fine in theory as long as people are aware of it, in the same vein that it's fine in Smash 4.

EDIT: And do I rename the footstool thing you gave me to just RSBE01.gct, or what? And I unzip them both, right?

 

[Bent 00]

Also I'll try the thing that happens when I click the 3rd link in your signature. If that has armor, it has armor... if not, it doesn't. Armor seems fine in theory as long as people are aware of it, in the same vein that it's fine in Smash 4.

Gold and Glyph told me that WP is probably getting 5% light armor in 4.0.

It's a good change, but WP & 'Douken will still be useless offstage, officially. :/

EDIT: And do I rename the footstool thing you gave me to just RSBE01.gct, or what? And I unzip them both, right?

Yep, RSBE01.gct. Replace the old one in your codes folder on the root of your SD card. Don't delete the old one though, in case you need it later.

 

[Bent 00]

@Thor: Looks like I won't get to play you this time, after all -- our schedules just didn't line up. Next time.

Sounds like you tested SOWP some, though. Land any offstage Punches? What do you think of the new Gandouken?

...

On a different note: This is Post #1,000 for me. I've never spent this much time or put as much thought into any other dedicated forum.

It makes me sad that the one (perfectly reasonable) thing I pushed for the most will never be accepted officially.

Nothing really matters in the end... It's a Lost Cause.

 

[Mawootad]

Well it almost certainly wont happen for 4.0, but if Minus continues past then dorf might get a neutral b that's usable in the air (although it will never, ever be the actual ohko punch). Imo (and this whole thing is 100% my personal opinion solely as a player who happens to be decently knowledgeable about fighter coding) there are some cool things that could be done with it to make it more fun and more functional, but the technology required to make things work properly and not look stupid simply is too difficult to work with right now. If things change though there are definitely some improvements that could be made though.

 

[Bent 00]

Tested SOWP 0.5b (with 5% damage-based armor) with two of my local players today for 2 hours. As good of a 'Dorf main as I am, I was only able to land 1 SOWP, and zero offstage Gandoukens. The Mario player was who I landed the SOWP on, but he quickly figured out how to gimp me whenever I went for a SOWP after that. The Luigi/Wario/G&W player easily dodged all of my WPs, onstage and off, but got hit by a few onstage 'Doukens.

Safe Offstage Warlock Punch and Safe Offstage Gandouken are EASY to deal with. Not OP at all.

 

[Thor]

Tested SOWP 0.5b (with 5% damage-based armor) with two of my local players today for 2 hours. As good of a 'Dorf main as I am, I was only able to land 1 SOWP, and zero offstage Gandoukens. The Mario player was who I landed the SOWP on, but he quickly figured out how to gimp me whenever I went for a SOWP after that. The Luigi/Wario/G&W player easily dodged all of my WPs, onstage and off, but got hit by a few onstage 'Doukens.

Safe Offstage Warlock Punch and Safe Offstage Gandouken are EASY to deal with. Not OP at all.

As I said earlier, with this variant, you can literally hit ONE place [vertically] offstage without walls, and maybe two or three with walls. That's it.

It's still not likely to make it, but it's honestly a ton of fun and hardly imbalanced. @BC and I played with the 'Dorf in the download for a while, and not only was it tremendous fun, but when one of us accidentally used warlock punch instead of side+B to attempt the KO, we didn't just SD, but managed to get dair'd for doing something stupid - much more satisfying on each end, really.

 

[Bent 00]

Here's a very short gif of that one SOWP I landed the other day:

It was definitely the highlight of that day's matches.

 

[Kien]

I'm not sure how much armor the BR intends to add to the punch, but 5 won't be enough. In minus 7 is a smarter minimum.

 

[Thor]

I'm not sure how much armor the BR intends to add to the punch, but 5 won't be enough. In minus 7 is a smarter minimum.

5 gets through most projectiles and basically all jab1s. What more does it need to go through [what does 6 or 7% that Ganondorf should be able to tank through?]

 

[Kien]

There are a few projectiles and jabs that deal up to 7%. You have Link's arrows, wolf's blaster, jabs from people like Samus etc.

 

[Bent 00]

Kien: Per your suggestion, I updated SOWP to version 0.7b -- WP now has 7% damage-based armor instead of 5%.

I tested it, and it works. Just need to see what new things that extra 2% allows 'Dorf to tank.

...

Looks like he can tank Raptor Boost now, didn't expect that.

 

[Bent 00]

FYI, I'm updating Safe Offstage Warlock Punch to work with 4.0b.

Here's the current Work In Progress, SOWP v0.74b WIP 1.1.

- Retains 7% damage-based armor
- Increased Vertical Momentum to 2.0 to deal with the higher gravity
- Adjusted Y Axis Offset of aerial Gandouken, since it didn't line up with 'Dorf's arm
- Made 'Dorf Invincible for the 2 frames the Warlock Punch is active, so foes can't trade with it via grabs anymore
- Added those same 2 Invincibility frames to Gandouken as well, because why not
- Removed the on-hit cancel, because it's not needed anymore, and it didn't feel right anyway ( "WHAMboop" VS "WHAMMmmm")

Try it out if you like, it's just regular 4.0b Ganondorf other than those 6 tweaks. Feedback is appreciated.

EDIT: Accidentally uploaded wrong file. Fixed now.
Please re-download if you downloaded before 10:14 PM EST on 09-09-2015.

 

[Darxmarx]

Expect feedback over the weekend, Bent. Tweaked builds are always fun!

 

[Thor]

FYI, I'm updating Safe Offstage Warlock Punch to work with 4.0b.

Here's the current Work In Progress, SOWP v0.74b WIP 1.

- Retains 7% damage-based armor
- Increased Vertical Momentum to 2.0 to deal with the higher gravity
- Adjusted Y Axis Offset of aerial Gandouken, since it didn't line up with 'Dorf's arm
- Made 'Dorf Invincible for the 2 frames the Warlock Punch is active, so foes can't trade with it via grabs anymore
- Added those same 2 Invincibility frames to Gandouken as well, because why not
- Removed the on-hit cancel, because it's not needed anymore, and it didn't feel right anyway ( "WHAMboop" VS "WHAMMmmm")

Try it out if you like, it's just regular 4.0b Ganondorf other than those 6 tweaks. Feedback is appreciated.

Not to be that guy, but unless you made this thing fly way more than you suggest, the cancel should probably come back... from how it sounds, a SH Warlock Punch offstage will still kill you now that there is no on-hit cancel, while a FH one is safe on hit or whiff, whereas prior a FH was safe on hit or whiff but the SH was safe on hit only [as prior SH was death unless you hit but the cancel let you recover]. I don't think removing the on-hit cancel was necessary [on stages with low enough bottom zones and walls to jump off of (New Pork City I think?), it even let dropzone warlock punch be safe on hit, but that would appear to be the case no more].

 

[Bent 00]

Not to be that guy, but unless you made this thing fly way more than you suggest, the cancel should probably come back... from how it sounds, a SH Warlock Punch offstage will still kill you now that there is no on-hit cancel, while a FH one is safe on hit or whiff, whereas prior a FH was safe on hit or whiff but the SH was safe on hit only [as prior SH was death unless you hit but the cancel let you recover]. I don't think removing the on-hit cancel was necessary [on stages with low enough bottom zones and walls to jump off of (New Pork City I think?), it even let dropzone warlock punch be safe on hit, but that would appear to be the case no more].

Thanks for your input. I'll check and see if it's still safe to SOWP near the blast zone. The new 2.0 Vertical Momentum pops 'Dorf up enough so that -- even in 1.1x gravity -- he essentially stays in place (vertically) for the duration of the animation post-Punch, so the on-hit cancel should be unnecessary.

But I'll look into it. This is a Work-In-Progress.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

I like the custom build, though I have some issues with it seeming to make Ganondorf OP, and I say that with him being one of my mains.

I feel like the 2 frame-invincibility on it is good for the OHKO variant, and the light armor would be better for the Gandouken, just because it would be invulnerable to many attacks both during and while winding up the punch.

Other than that I really appreciate that Warlock Punch can be used offstage again, as 4.0 really butchered that. As for a cancel, how about a momentum-cancel instead of being able to cancel it with a move. That way it would stop moving horizontally upon making contact with a target, and it would demand precision due to the small chance of moving Ganon too far offstage.

 

[Bent 00]

Actually, I think that the "SOWP v0.74b WIP 1" I posted above was the wrong file. I'll get the correct version up ASAP.

Thor: I'll add a version with the on-hit Cancel back in, but it won't work on the aerial Reverse WP. I just found out today that aerial Reverse WP hasn't had an on-hit Cancel since, well, ever. It was supposed to be added in 3.Q, but I tested unmodified 'Dorf in both 3.Q and 4.0b -- both can only Cancel the non-Reversed aerial WP on-hit.

I gotta ask, though: Why do you think 'Dorf should be able to survive throwing out a flying Warlock Punch so close to the blast line? I mean, I guess it's cool if you pull it off, but I still think that being able to Cancel the endlag of such a powerful move is janky. If Falcon can't survive a short-hopped Flying Falcon Punch, why should 'Dorf be able to recover after a short-hopped Flying Warlock Punch?

I like the custom build, though I have some issues with it seeming to make Ganondorf OP, and I say that with him being one of my mains.

I feel like the 2 frame-invincibility on it is good for the OHKO variant, and the light armor would be better for the Gandouken, just because it would be invulnerable to many attacks both during and while winding up the punch.

You're suggesting that WP have 2-frame Invincibility, but no damage-based armor, and vice-versa for the Gandouken? Hmm... That wouldn't work because you could just hold down B until Frame 68, then let go -- you'd get Gandouken's damage-based armor and WP's 2 Invincibility frames. Even if I could make it Either Or, I'd say the ~70 frames of damage-based armor is MUCH better than 2 frames of Invincibility.

I added those 2 frames to Gandouken as well, because while it's no 666% OHKO, it does have a 32% hitbox on 'Dorf's fist. It's nearly as silly for that to trade with grabs as it is for them to trade with WP -- that hitbox basically is a vBrawl WP. It lasts longer than you'd expect, too; foes who drop into it mid-move still take 32% damage. Maybe I should nerf those into 14% hitboxes, like the rest of Gandouken... If I did that, the 2 frames of Invincibility wouldn't be as necessary.

I think the damage-based armor should stay on both Warlock Punch and Gandouken, but it may get reduced back down to 5% if it can tank too many moves. I need to do more testing to see which moves do 7% damage or less.

Other than that I really appreciate that Warlock Punch can be used offstage again, as 4.0 really butchered that. As for a cancel, how about a momentum-cancel instead of being able to cancel it with a move. That way it would stop moving horizontally upon making contact with a target, and it would demand precision due to the small chance of moving Ganon too far offstage.

I'm glad you like it. Be sure to grab the fixed WIP when I post it.

A "momentum-cancel"? I'm not quite sure what you mean, but SOWP 'Dorf is only propelled forward a little bit; the Horizontal Momentum of SOWP is only 0.3, while its Vertical Momentum is 2.0. You can also steer 'Dorf a little bit forward or backward while he's winding up WP / Gandouken in midair.

Personally, I still don't think the on-hit Cancel is needed, in addition to the 2.0 Vertical Momentum. Yeah, that would mean 'Dorf can't short-hop SOWP at the bottom blast zone and still survive if he lands it. I don't see why he should be able to do that, if Falcon can't do it.

You know... Ideally, I think I'd prefer to just replace Warlock Punch / Gandouken with Float / Cape / Energy Ball. That would be more true to the Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time... Eventually, perhaps?

EDIT: Uploaded the correct file this time!
SOWP v0.74b WIP 1.1
Please re-download if you downloaded before 10:14 PM EST on 09-09-2015.