If i sounded harsh, i appologize. Im just very, very tired of arguing over this. I get that some people want this, i get it, i really do. But we can't make everyone happy. We don't need to hear the reasons for it over and over and over (and over) again.
I said everything i needed to say. It all comes down to a difference in opinions. Im not downing anyone for their opinion. Im not saying mine is more important. But thats what things come down to. Unfortunately most of the other developers agree with most (or at least some) of what i've said.
In any case:
"Seems like the team is more interested in trying to make sure the move is never used [or somehow scared of it being used] than they are of making a move fun."
This is untrue. And furthermore, i don't care whether or not the move is 'fun'. That's no excuse for trying to pressure us into a design decision we don't agree with.
"Make the players earn their punishes, and don't punish them for attempting to utilize moves in ways you wouldn't."
How about make people own up to their mistakes, not allow people to do something with a move that we don't want to happen. For all the reasons specified, which include our design philosophy. We don't want the strongest move in the game to be thrown out offstage without the strongest consequences.
That's the only reason that matters. It doesn't matter if it never hits ever. It's like saying stealing should be perfectly okay in a perfect world, because nobody steals things in that world. just because nobody steals, doesn't mean stealing is okay. In the same sense, just because it's not broken to survive WP being thrown out offstage, that doesn't mean it's okay for it to happen even once (in accordance with what our design philosophy is). We don't want it to happen.
It's already a mistake to miss - you could have used something that hit [or else you got outplayed if nothing would have hit, the nature of Minus (and Smash) for your opponent predicting you and timing their actions around you].
If you think a whiff should have the strongest consequences, I strongly urge you to simply cause an immediate game loss to any Ganondorf player that whiffs - immediately remove all his stocks and end the game right there. It's the strongest move, should have the strongest consequences.
...But then where is that design philosophy for the dark uppercut [considerably easier to land, especially with the ledges being silly - you can ask Aether how many times I've uppercut him on the ledge], Falco's dair, Sheik's chain, Zelda's distant hitboxes [which protect her up close], Bowser's RR [a free dthrow -> free Koopa Klaw -> free percent from that], or anything else?
You're holding only a single move to this standard. The game isn't balanced around risk/reward as I've said time and again, or these moves would be so much more punishable. They're based on risk/reward/reliability of the whole toolkit [which is why Falco without his dair would be bad, and why Zelda without distant hiboxes would be bad, and Sheik's chain being seldom used allowing it to be better]. The reliability of warlock punch is zero and the risk is already highest in the game even with a cancel [startup lag is far more risky than endlag for long duration moves, since long startup allows opponents to position to punish rather than have to reach a spot to punish after the hitbox], so I fail to see why a reasonably high reward justifies increasing the risk to be even higher than it already is.
This isn't even close to stealing. Stealing is a moral question that is wrong on the basis that harming others is wrong, regardless of the conditions of the world. Unless you think throwing a Warlock Punch offstage is wrong, regardless of the conditions [that is, it hits], then it these two aren't equivalent. If you also removed the OHC and said "Warlock Punch must KO Ganondorf if offstage no matter what", you made the move infinitesimally worse [as an always cancel is infinitesimally better], but at least then you're consistent.
I swear, all this bickering lately really makes me debate whether or not developing this game is worth it. Seems to me that alot of people only want to criticize our flaws or call out our reasons citing a "Bad leader" or "Bad design choices". Why would i want to keep developing this game when it seems that people just think they can do better? How about some appreciation for what we HAVE done that you liked? Rather than act like were forcing vegetables down your throat or something.
================EDIT================
I shouldn't even have to go this far. We should only have to give you our decision, and IF were nice developers who love their community, give you our reasons for said decision. And we have given them. Numerous times. We shouldn't HAVE to explain ourselves. We made our decisions based on what we think is best, and more importantly, what we think is right/fits with the game that we are developing for YOU. For FREE. In our spare time.
Do you actually have any idea how much work this is? How much time i spend every single day dedicated to bringing this content to you? I have a life, you know. A family. Loved ones who i have had to set aside to do my best for YOU GUYS. People who i would love to spend more time with. So many times have i made the decision to stay home and work, rather than going out with my best friends and living my life. And all i ask, ALL I WANT, is for people to at least respect what i do. I make that decision to spend my time on minus because i want to. Not because im forced to like a JOB.
I could list everything you've ever done to Sheik, Falco, Fox (minus my uthrow uair suggestions), Wolf, Pikachu (especially Thunder), Falcon, Luigi, Mario, Wario, Ike, Marth, Snake, Roy, Kirby, Peach, Yoshi, Meta Knight (up to 3.Q at least), and numerous other characters and state everything I like about them. That post would probably take up a whole page by themselves. I can safely say I support over 99% of things as is, and while I might support future changes, I feel in no way that most of the cast is not complete/awesome as is.
It is the nature of suggestions that people focus on what they do not like - we could laud praises over and over again, but that wouldn't take things from "amazing" to "perfect", which is why people focus on negatives. I can start a thread where I say thanks for everything (and it would be quite long), but I'm not sure that's what you're after.
I don't mind critique, i don't mind differing opinions or disagreements. But at the very least, don't call our reasons "bad". I sure don't say your reasons for wanting it are "bad".
Your reasons are bad in as much as they are logically incoherent or at odds with known information. I can use the word "inferior" or "inadequate" or "wrong" if you prefer, but if I said that black people are biologically superior to white people (or vice versa), any reasons I provide would be bad/inferior/inadequate/wrong because they contradict existing knowledge that race is a social construct. Numerous reasons provide in these posts suggest things or make claims that are simply false, or else have internal contradictions, which means I could simply quote what you have argued against yourself to refute a claim [which is a bad thing for the people arguing against the change]. I've noted a few of them already, and while I don't feel like listing them, I can spend time doing so if necessary.
Incidentally, I have spent time practicing throwing non-suicidal Falcon Punches in Melee [still need work on that], and I did the same in Minus with 'Dorf [was easier but worth practicing]. So part of my irritation may be that the effort is now wholly wasted as things stand.
Also, for the record, there's zero way to make a Warlock Punch land confidently [might be the dev's point?], since opponents aren't helpless can use recovery moves the wrong way, can drift away from the punch, and since specials are not fast-fallable [if I remember correctly], they can fastfall around your punch and you can't keep up. I have done this to someone as Falco [side+b away, Firebird win as they died - and I made it back]. At least if one could fastfall the punch they could adjust to the opponent's decision to fastfall or not, but one can't even do that.
