*Edited because spacing was weird.
Blatantly untrue. If this move is so hard to land onstage to the point where you'd call it useless, how on earth would it ever be MORE likely to land offstage where both characters are in motion? That's not to mention that a hard enough read can land a warlock punch. It's uncommon, but that's how it's supposed to be given that you're guaranteed a stock outside of them managing to tech.
The thing is, it's impossible. Link has deku nuts and actual ability to generate shield breaks. 'Dorf has neither. And EVEN IF 'Dorf could generate shield breaks, it's generally simple counterplay to avoid them [note how rarely shield breaks occur in 64, despite the relative ease there].
And? In what context would it make sense to have a guaranteed move that you could reliably set up into?
See above.
Jeez it almost sounds like going for warlock punch offstage is just kind of a bad idea in the first place. Like how going for sing offstage is a bad idea in the first place. Or how using most recovery moves away from the ledge is a bad idea.
Some moves are a bad idea to use offstage, you dummies.
So is Falcon Punch. So is Raptor Boost. So is Flame Choke. So is Ganondorf's tipman uair. So is Melee utilt. So is Falco usmash. So is comboing Firefox into uair.
People do those things anyway, because they can. I don't think Minus should actively strive to limit the player - I think it should leave the player to do the dumbest things imaginable, because they can. The question here never was "should", and you're intentionally misdirecting the discussion. Ganondorf should never use anything other than dair or the more powerful of fair/bair offstage, or else the very top of uair/dark dive, but he has a nair and uair and other moves and those are used too anyway.
I don't think Minus should seek to limit the player [that's one thing I forgot]. So this is another ideological dispute we can't really resolve.
This is LITERALLY nonsense gibberish without defined variables and scales. There is no equation for whether or not a move makes sense. Save yourself and everyone else the trouble and don't come back to this.
You can write up any equation you want. I did define it though - there is no move riskier in Minus than Warlock Punch [max], there is no move more rewarding that Warlock Punch [max], and there is no more unreliable move than Warlock Punch [0 reliability].
IN ANY CASE, everyone has been using "risk/reward" as the means to defend making the move terrible. They are IGNORING that the move is totally unreliable, and THEREFORE failing to acknowledge the fundamental flaw of "risk/reward" analysis as it pertains to Smash moves. Once again, if I made a character of only OHKOs, people in here would say "not that bad, high risk, high reward", but I say "TERRIBLE! Zero reliability, so risk/reward is irrelevant - can't ever land a hit, can't win!"
If you can't follow this line of logic, then you might as well just quit, but if you can, then even if my reductionist calculation should have another formula, the point remains that the utter unusability of Warlock Punch in any situation renders it useless. I want the illusion of usefulness [or actual usefulness], and people here are determined to make it useless anyway.
A move that is literally the embodiment of power doesn't GET to have utility too. I get that you guys don't like that it's strictly power, but sorry you're going to have to deal with it.
Minus is "if it ain't broken [in the good way], break it until it gets better". Warlock Punch is broken in a bad way. To not make it better in some manner or another is fundamentally anti-Minus, at least as I see it. As it stands, power is the worst thing in this game to have, and utility the best [where Falco's dair doesn't do much damage, where Link's rang doesn't do much damage, but they are ridiculously broken moves for having low risk and high utility - Minus has no sense of balancing around the risk, usefulness, and power of a move, and I think this is quite frankly very bad].
Thor...if you land the punch (which is the only way to trigger the on hit cancel), what happens to your opponent? They -can't- punish, they're too busy being blasted into oblivion. You don't get to respond to something like that.
Your rhetoric there also heavily argues against adding safety to the move, so I'm not sure what you're even shooting to say in this part.
You're either deliberately misconstruing my argument or just got lost. If you land the punch, duh they can't punish, that's how Minus works. My point is that on whiff, they deserve the opportunity to punish. I want the move to be safe enough to not die if no one is pressuring you, because it's the opponent's job to punish people for mistakes or arrogance. I want stylish punishes and Ganondorfs regretting their decision because they got rekt, not because they whiffed. Currently the only source of punishment is "I whiffed", and that's lame.
And you have every right to that opinion. But take a step back and realize that the BRoom, that has infamously been divided on nigh every topic (that's an exaggeration for effect here) is completely unified that this is a bad idea. Not because of bias against Ganon (or, lol, that they're afraid of the move. Come on Thor, that's just ... lol) but because the move already has a very clearly defined role and it fills it perfectly.
The worst move in the game? Why would they pick something awesome and reduce it to nothing? That's just dumb.
First off, you're right! Any of those WOULD be an improvement over how warlock punch is. But you know what else would be an improvement? If ROB's up-b never ran out of fuel. Or if bowser's fair did 80%. Just because something is better doesn't mean it's a good idea.
None of these are going to happen in official minus. Not because of anything against you or Bent, but because they are poor ideas attempting to fix a problem that isn't real. Ganon does not 'deserve' to be able to use his punch offstage. You don't balance moves for 'style'. If you want to punch a goon offstage, do it, but be ready to pay for it with a stock. Or, use a move that IS capable of being used offstage. Ganon's got plenty of solid options as is, the punch covers no new areas and is literally already outclassed by nigh any aerial he has.
THAT is the last I'm ever going to say on it. The next time I see this brought up (outside of for you guys personal use) I won't hesitate to let the mod powers do the talking instead.
But none of the changes I suggested would break anything. Bowser fair being 80% is broken because you can actually land the move, ROB being ungimpable is broken because it becomes hit up+B to not die. As I said above, the move would STILL be useless with these changes, it would just be ever so slightly less so. You straw-manning my arguments and ideas doesn't make you look smart or right - it just makes you look very close-minded.
Based on what I said and your response, you also appear to have read at most half of my suggestions.
If it's outclassed by everything, why can't it be an option? Are people really scared of opponents taking suboptimal options?
At lest Smash 4 gave it armor, and utilt a huge hitbox for edgeguarding. Were Minus so cool to do something similar. Raw power never has been a substitute for making something not-useless, and it never will be.
