Custom Warlock Punch

[Lucis Perficio]

I feel like the silliness of the move is extremely characteristic of Minus, though. A OHKO move is crazy enough without any tiny technicalities in its favor. It's more of a hard read move imo; tbh I prefer the armor to the invincibility frames bc it protects him against things like most jabs while winding it up.

To each their own, I guess. I just feel like this build would make Ganon more broken than he already is compared to the rest of the cast, but that's just me it seems.

 

[Bent 00]

The things that mainly need to be looked at now are...

1.) The 7% damage-based armor on Warlock Punch and Gandouken
Should it be 5% instead of 7%?
Which moves deal 7% damage or less?
Should only the grounded versions have this armor?

2.) Gandouken's 32% damage, long-lasting hitbox on Ganondorf's fist
It's such a good ranged move, should it be this good up close too?
Should the damage of this hitbox be reduced to 14%?
If so, should the 2 frames of Invincibility be removed?
Should the fist hitbox duration be shortened to only the first few frames it comes out?
Is Gandouken too good offstage?

I get the feeling that choosing to use Warlock Punch VS Gandouken isn't really a balanced choice as-is. Gandouken is a much safer option, and the 32% damage hitbox is just as lethal as WP at higher percents. WP is basically the "Style" option. A cautious player always intends to use Gandouken for its safety, range, and long-lasting hitboxes, and will only let go of that B button at the last second if he's sure he's gonna land WP.

I think the 'Dorf player should think of the WP as more of a real option. As-is, when he lands Gandouken's 32% damage hitbox, he probably isn't disappointed at all; he missed a chance to Style, but he likely scored a KO anyway, or at least did major damage. I'm thinking that perhaps the player should feel more like, "AWW, I played it too safe and only did 14% damage when I could have done 666%!"

What do you guys think?

 

[NEWB]

I agree with that thinking. If the gandouken just overshadows the punch completely then the gandouken can manage with just utility. Shouldnt get armor or invincability though. Move has startup but great range. Making it safe to throw out a move like that is pretty undeserved.

 

[Bent 00]

No armor on Gandouken makes sense, but implementing it without stripping Warlock Punch of its damage-based armor might be tricky -- and I really like the idea of damage-based armor on WP. Perhaps it could be rigged so that you must hold B for the entire animation to fire Gandouken? 'Dorf would not have any armor while B is held, but if B is released at any point before the Gandouken fires, the move locks into WP with 7% damage-based armor.

That setup would make WP more appealing by making Gandouken actually "cost" something (the armor), and Neutral B could function as sort of a "Bait and Switch" move once again. I'm not sure how I would PSA that, though, since I'm only a PSA novice... Something to do with "loops"?

As for the 2 Invincibility frames, those are no problem. They're only there to prevent grabs from trading with a 32% damage move. I think it would only make sense to remove them if the fist hitboxes are toned down to match the ranged Gandouken hitboxes.

 

[Darxmarx]

After doing some testing I noticed that both the Warlock Punch and the Gandouken had no armor whatsoever. I thought I downloaded the most recent version. If this is just a small mistake, then please fix this. If this is just my own stupidity, then I apologize.

I also did some jab damage testing, and based on my calculations, I believe that 7% armor is fine. Even 8 or 9% armor would work, due to some jabs being slightly more powerful (ex. Ike's final jab hit, Roy's sweetspotted hit).

Gandouken's lasting hitbox on Ganondorf's fist should stay, but I think that changing it's damage to 14% would be optimal. It just seems appropriate to me that the attack's power would slightly lessen after the main "oomph" of the attack is released.

I support the idea that Gandouken would lose the armor in exchange for its range. However, if you find it too difficult to code that in, then it's alright. The 2-frame invincibility, I feel, should remain as-is. As you said, they're useful for prevent grabs from trading, and they don't have a significant effect otherwise.

Of course, I'm not a Ganon main, so my thoughts may not be entirely helpful, but I still wanted to contribute.

 

[Bent 00]

After doing some testing I noticed that both the Warlock Punch and the Gandouken had no armor whatsoever. I thought I downloaded the most recent version. If this is just a small mistake, then please fix this. If this is just my own stupidity, then I apologize.

Is your download from before 10:14 PM EST on 09-09-2015? If so, please re-download. I did accidentally upload the wrong file at first, but it should be the correct one now, "SOWP v0.74b WIP 1.1".

I also did some jab damage testing, and based on my calculations, I believe that 7% armor is fine. Even 8 or 9% armor would work, due to some jabs being slightly more powerful (ex. Ike's final jab hit, Roy's sweetspotted hit).

Gandouken's lasting hitbox on Ganondorf's fist should stay, but I think that changing it's damage to 14% would be optimal. It just seems appropriate to me that the attack's power would slightly lessen after the main "oomph" of the attack is released.

I support the idea that Gandouken would lose the armor in exchange for its range. However, if you find it too difficult to code that in, then it's alright. The 2-frame invincibility, I feel, should remain as-is. As you said, they're useful for prevent grabs from trading, and they don't have a significant effect otherwise.

Of course, I'm not a Ganon main, so my thoughts may not be entirely helpful, but I still wanted to contribute.

Thank you for your input! I'm glad you approve of the changes. I still don't know how to code in that mechanic I mentioned earlier, but I can reduce the power of Gandouken's fist hitbox, and adjust the Y Offset just a little bit more.

 

[Xentas]

Silly question Bent 00, you think you could design an ultrataunt based ability for Ganondorf?

 

[Bent 00]

Silly question Bent 00, you think you could design an ultrataunt based ability for Ganondorf?

I've tried, but whenever I experimented with any advanced stuff in PSA, my edited 'Dorf would freeze the game. So I stuck with simple edits. There are 4 of them now: CWP, SFWP, SOWP (3.Q), and SOWP (4.0b).

If I could make any advanced changes to Ganondorf's taunts... I'd probably take one of these approaches (from most to least extensive):

A.) Make down/side taunt switch to SWORD MODE/MAGIC MODE (check out BronzeGreekGod's Project Ganondorf). Make WP non-suicidal.

B.) Make his default Neutral B something much more safe and useful (like Project M's Float/Cape), and make side taunt toggle Neutral B to a version of the Warlock Punch that is non-suicidal offstage.

C.) Make his default Neutral B the vBrawl version with ~7% damage-based armor, and make side taunt toggle Neutral B to the OHKO version with no armor (except for the 2 frames the WP hitbox is active, to prevent trades with grabs). Both versions would be non-suicidal offstage. If the (secret?) taunt only switches to OHKO WP for one use instead of until toggled back, then OHKO WP can keep the ~7% armor.

I'm not done tweaking Warlock Punch yet. Just lost steam since no one else has supported it lately.

IMO, the core problem with WP as-is is how it's so useless offstage. 'Dorf shouldn't have to use a (secret?) taunt to make it useful offstage; it should be useful offstage by default. If that means sacrificing the OHKO, fine -- what good is it if it almost never hits.

 

[Xentas]

That's really interesting.... I like C especially. A would be cool, but not easy at all, though I can imagine a nice moveset for him akin to Ike.

B would be killing the fun but that would be the most adaptable idea.

I'm not sure if my word will help you any, but this is right up my alley of interest, I wish I could help you in any way with it.

 

[Bent 00]

I'm not sure if my word will help you any, but this is right up my alley of interest, I wish I could help you in any way with it.

Thanks for your interest! I appreciate the support.

If you'd like to help, have you tried any of my previous Warlock Punch tweaks? If you're running 4.0b, try my latest one:

SOWP v0.74b WIP 1.1

It's basically the powered-up part of "C" above, with armor, no taunt switch.

 

[Xentas]

Okay, so I'm just gonna state my observations... So using the move offstage allows him to jump, that's the difference, the purple color he gets is his final 2 frame invincibility, and by "cancel"... Is it the elongated shadow after a good timing of the buttons? I can't figure it out.

 

[Bent 00]

Okay, so I'm just gonna state my observations... So using the move offstage allows him to jump, that's the difference, the purple color he gets is his final 2 frame invincibility, and by "cancel"... Is it the elongated shadow after a good timing of the buttons? I can't figure it out.

Uhh. Have you actually tried SOWP v0.74b WIP 1.1 in vanilla Minus 4.0b yet?

Because that doesn't sound quite right. Especially the "elongated shadow" part -- that makes me wonder if you applied my tweaked files correctly.

There are 2 files: FitGanon.pac and FitGanonMotionEtc.pac. Did you replace both of them with my edited versions?

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you here.

It should just be the 4.0b WP you're used to, except that it has 7% damage-based armor, and instead of dropping like a rock in midair, 'Dorf stalls in place when the WP comes out (so he doesn't suicide unless he short-hopped offstage).

Here is a short .gif of the previous version, SOWP 0.7b (for Minus 3.Q), but it operates nearly identically.

Note the pause at the moment of impact. Normally, 'Dorf keeps falling.

Spoiler

 

[Xentas]

OH, yeah I get this now. It's pretty nice to be able to use it and recover, but since it's really not much different, that also proves a real point.

Tbh I'd like it to seem different, but I don't know how this would... change.. anything... That's the point though. Wow.

It gives him a lot of little options and makes the move much more accomplishable on AI. That's pretty nice.

I'm gonna keep the mod, idk why I'd change it after this pleasant buff.

 

[Bent 00]

If that one isn't different enough for you, and you've got a 3.Q build of Minus, you might want to try my 3 earlier versions.

See the first post of this topic for descriptions of each one.

CWP was pretty OP in retrospect, but it was hilarious to see 'Dorf fly by immediately Cancelling flying WP (especially when reversed) into aerials.

SFWP was the most fun to me, and it wasn't as terribly broken as CWP. It still flew up and forwards like CWP, but couldn't Cancel.

SOWP is the compromise/minimalist build. But it does have armor and the new Gandouken.

None of those 3 will work as intended with 4.0b, due to the higher gravity.

 

[Xentas]

That explains things.

It works GREAT on GC Zelda temple, I smashed 3 CF AI with it when they chased me off that left cliff, not sure if I'd have gotten that without the stop and the recover. I can also use it to attack another opponent, and even another with the up b, etc.

Physics could be changed a wee but the catch is that it's so indiscrete it could be assumed it was representing the riskiness of OHKO punch.
7% armor doesn't do anything, really, but then again, it doesn't really do anything.

 

[Bent 00]

Here are some ideas for an altered Neutral B for Ganondorf.

They were designed with these goals in mind:
1.) (suicidal offstage) OHKO Warlock Punch must remain. Only an On-Hit Cancel is permitted for a OHKO move.
2.) Offstage Punch functionality should be very limited compared to on-stage usability. Offstage use should be very risky.
3.) Gandouken is allowed more flexibility and speed, since it is not very useful as-is.

Disclaimer:
This isn't what I would call my "ideal" Neutral B for Ganondorf, personally. I prefer to encourage offstage Warlock Punches, but this set of changes is intended to be considerable for official use, and you know how the Minus devs feel about Warlock Punching offstage. They hate it.

I.) On the Ground...
--- A.) Once Neutral B is initiated...
------- 1.) As long as B is held...
----------- a.) Ganondorf will have armor while he winds up Warlock Punch at his usual speed.
----------- b.) If B is held for the entire windup animation, (suicidal offstage) OHKO Warlock Punch fires. Armor vanishes when the hitbox does.
------- 2.) If B is released at any point during Warlock Punch windup...
----------- a.) Ganondorf's armor will immediately vanish, his windup animation will speed up (x2?), and Ganodouken will fire at the end.
--------------- aa.) The Gandouken projectile itself is sped up (1.25-2x?),
--------------- ab.) Gandouken can now be angled up and down (no more than 45 degrees either way), and
--------------- ac.) The 32% fist hitbox is reduced to 14%, to match the rest of the hitboxes, and to make Warlock Punch more appealing.
II.) In the Air, the current windup is replaced with a much quicker one, which leads into one of two moves:
--- A.) Holding B makes Ganondorf Punch the ground as he does in Ocarina of Time, like this.
------- 1.) Ganondorf flies downwards and slightly forwards very quickly, with a constant strong (32%?) hitbox while he's dropping.
----------- a.) Ganondorf's rapid descent will not stop unless...
--------------- aa.) He hits an opponent and uses the Warlock Punch's On-Hit Cancel, or
--------------- ab.) He hits solid ground. This causes a medium-sized shockwave (like this) that...
-------------------- aba.) Instantly destroys destructible stage elements, and
-------------------- abb.) Hits grounded foes (not aerial ones) for moderate damage. It could also stun them and/or launch them upwards.
----------- b.) Ganondorf would experience significant ending lag after landing, but not as much as Grounded Warlock Punch has.
--- B.) Not holding B at the choice moment will cause Ganondorf to fire one of two projectiles straight downwards (perhaps at a slight angle):
------- 1.) A short bolt of lightning with a sweetspot at the end, like this. Flubbed hits are weak, but sweetspotted ones Meteor Smash.
----------- a.) There is no recoil on this move; Ganondorf is not propelled upwards, he only stalls in the air briefly.
------- 2.) A traditional purple Gandouken with the ususal 14% hitboxes and mild knockback.
----------- a.) Since this projectile is less useful offensively, it could help Ganondorf's recovery by boosting him upwards a little in the air.

Does anyone like any part of this? Remember, BronzeGreekGod gave us permission to use his work from Project Ganondorf in Brawl Minus.

 

[Xentas]

Can you even make a button press be so nuanced with coding as to do that correctly? It's gonna be a lot of polishing and fixing.

 

[Destructo]

Now I think I'm going to make a joke PSA where Ganon has his cancel and shoots out confetti every time you do it.

YOU'VE FOUND THE CURE FOR CANCER

 

[Bent 00]

OK, so I've mostly just used the "Set the current horizontal and vertical velocity of the character to the specified value" subaction to give Ganondorf's Warlock Punch some air time... but lately I've been thinking, "Falcon has that pause on Falcon Punch officially. Could I borrow that from him and work it into Warlock Punch?"

I'm still a PSA amateur, so I'll ask here:
"Via Project Smash Attacks, how would I take Falcon Punch's midair momentum stall and add it to midair Warlock Punch?"

Does it have something to do with the "0E010200" subaction?

For comparison:

Spoiler: 4.0b aerial Falcon Punch

Spoiler: 4.0b aerial Warlock Punch

Spoiler: SOWP v0.74b WIP 1.1

I think this could be a more consistent, refined solution to making WP non-suicidal offstage. Thanks for any assistance.

*pages Kien and Mawootad*

 

[Bent 00]

Can anyone answer my question above?

 

[Bent 00]

C'mon, this should be easy for any dev to answer. Kien Mawootad

"Via Project Smash Attacks, how would I take Falcon Punch's midair momentum stall and add it to midair Warlock Punch?"

Does it have something to do with the "0E010200" subaction?

For comparison:

Spoiler: 4.0b aerial Falcon Punch

Spoiler: 4.0b aerial Warlock Punch

Spoiler: SOWP v0.74b WIP 1.1

I think this could be a more consistent, refined solution to making WP non-suicidal offstage. Thanks for any assistance.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

I don't know.

And you said it would be easy for any dev to answer.

 

[Bent 00]

I don't know.

And you said it would be easy for any dev to answer.

Didn't you say once that you didn't know a lot about the PSA side of things, Doq? Forgive me if I recall incorrectly.

Technically, I should have said my question should be easy for any Dev familiar with PSA.

I'm surprised neither Kien or Mawootad have responded, they're usually happy to help with sort of thing...

...Hey Doq, while we're talking, I'd like to ask you: What would be your ideal Custom Ganondorf? You've made it known you're not happy with his current status. I'm curious what changes you would want to see, including changes that have no chance of becoming official. I'm guessing you'd want 'Dorf to fall slower, and get a better Gandouken, minimum?

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

I do know quite a bit of PSA, I'm just too lazy/uninformed as to what that is to bother. Actually my knowledge on PSA helps a lot with Melee too.

In terms of Ganondorf changes, I played SSB Crusade Ganondorf and I really like the design of that one. I'd like to see him more like that.

 

[Neville]

Kien hasn't been on the forums in months.