Custom Warlock Punch

[Bent 00]

Lightning, it's a useless move because it rarely ever works as-is. The risk is much too high for the slight chance of reward. A Neutral B move should be more reliable and useful.

Doqtor Kirby, which elements of my changes did you find "stupid" after a while? Did you like any of them?

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Doqtor Kirby, which elements of my changes did you find "stupid" after a while? Did you like any of them?

It's probably how it was used here (at the a7-x venue), but it got boring, and that was stupid. I'm pretty chill with it, but as I said, not all the time.

 

[Bent 00]

Hmm, perhaps I should gather replays of the modified Warlock Punch being used effectively.

The momentum boost you get from immediately Cancelling it offstage seems to have much potential IMO.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I have sat back and watched this topic since it's creation, and for all this time, I kept myself from saying anything. This is the last response I have for the subject.

Bent, people have been giving you a lot of reasons why it doesn't need the cancel, and with every reason that's been given, all you have done is respond with what boils down to "you don't know what you're talking about. I know what's best for Dorf." That is not how you garner support, ever. You do not know what's best for Dorf any more than I do, and we both have polar opposite opinions as Dorf mains. So your group likes the punch cancel. Congrats. The rest of us don't think it's required to improve Dorf's game in any way in the official build. Dorf has a plethora of offstage options that don't involve the punch whatsoever, and they all come out faster are are much less easy to predict.

And please, stop calling the move useless. You don't seem to understand what "high risk high reward" means. The move is slow, it is predictable, it is punishable, but if you land it, you take a stock off your opponent no questions asked. That is THE definition of high risk high reward. Just because you like throwing punches and Gandoukens doesn't mean the move needs to be changed. If it did, it would be reworked into something entirely different, making the entire complaint about the cancel moot in the first place. Punch ignores shields and kills, and Gandouken multi-hits with high damage, traps opponents, is unblockable, and allows for a great number of follow ups INCLUDING a punch at the very end of the hitstun if timed precisely right (which in itself is flat out broken).

I have no problem with you experimenting with Dorf and seeing what you can do, but I will ask you nicely to please stop trying to push it on people and trying to force it back into the official build. Reasons were given, and it's annoying people now that you're implying the devs are all wrong for taking it out.

 

[Bent 00]

OK, I'll keep further discussion of this in this thread. I do think the devs are doing the wrong thing leaving the Cancel out, though. The official version should at least not auto-suicide when used offstage, come on. That is definitely useless.

I wasn't trying to force these changes on anyone; I was trying to bring attention to what I believe is a better version of Warlock Punch.

From here on, I give up trying to get the Warlock Punch Cancel back in Minus "officially". I'm definitely going to make this custom version of mine the best it can be, though.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It suicides because you're not supposed to use it offstage. End of story. There is a reason it comes out slower than Falcon's punch.

 

[NEWB]

How can it be recovered from in vbrawl?

If that's the case, shouldn't it also be possible in minus? The only reason why this should remain impossible is if the punch is considered to have been repurposed. If the devs see it as repurposed, then it's fine. Otherwise that should still be possible in minus. Granted, Ganon has infinite horizontal recovery for the most part...... Maybe that has something to do with????

 

[Bent 00]

How can it be recovered from in vbrawl?

I deleted that post temporarily, because I need to fact-check some claims I made in it.

It's been a long time since I played vBrawl.

A little while later...

I was wrong about 'Dorf being able to survive an offstage Warlock Punch in vBrawl. He can almost make it back to the ledge, but not quite. It's also impossible to survive in Melee. Didn't try in Project M.

Still, that's no reason he shouldn't be able to survive it in Minus.

*edits temporarily deleted post*

There, fixed:

It suicides because you're not supposed to use it offstage. End of story.

There it is again. The "Just Because" dismissal.

What other Neutral B moves always make you suicide if you use them offstage? None!

How about Side B moves? Nope, none of them guarantee a suicide.

Down B moves? None! Bowser Bomb can be Edge-Cancelled.

Even Up B moves which put you into Special Fall can be used offstage if you catch the ledge afterward.

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch is the only aerial Special move in the game that you cannot recover from, and why? "You're not supposed to use it offstage." Bull. It's a PUNCH, not a body slam or self-disabling move. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to use it offstage and survive.

 

[Bent 00]

Random thoughts before I go to sleep:

- Even if I removed the Cancels from the aerial versions of my v1.0 Custom Warlock Punch, the new trajectories would still allow the use of the move offstage without suiciding...

- What if, instead of being able to Cancel immediately after the W.P. hitbox comes out, 'Dorf could only Cancel right before it comes out? Basically, 'Dorf could opt out of the move just like Bowser can Cancel his F-Smash, but if he does Punch, he has to complete the animation. This would allow 'Dorf to keep his mixup game, while preventing him from escaping whiffed Punches so easily. Is it possible to make a move only Cancellable during a certain window within the move's animation, and then only allow it to Cancel into specific other moves (instead of any move)?

Hmm...

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

What other Neutral B moves always make you suicide if you use them offstage? Rollout

Down B moves? Rest

Even Up B moves which put you into Special Fall can be used offstage if you catch the ledge afterward. (SING!)

Didn't include side-b because pound is a legit move.

 

[Thor]

You can jump-cancel rollout, and you can grab the ledge with Sing, last I checked... or is that a Melee-only thing? Also if you're high enough you don't die with Sing - Jiggs has plenty of jumps + rising pound to make it back.

 

[NEWB]

That^

 

[Bent 00]

Also if you're high enough you don't die with Sing - Jiggs has plenty of jumps + rising pound to make it back.

Yep, same goes for Rest. Jiggs can use 6 jumps to float to the top corner of a stage, Rest, then float back to the ledge with her remaining 4 jumps.

Offstage, Jigglypuff can take a NAP and survive, but Ganondorf can't survive using his signature move.

 

[Bashdemears]

Yep, same goes for Rest. Jiggs can use 6 jumps to float to the top corner of a stage, Rest, then float back to the ledge with her remaining 4 jumps.

Offstage, Jigglypuff can take a NAP and survive, but Ganondorf can't survive using his signature move.

How is that an issue? You seem to think being able to do a special attack offstage without SD is a "thing." It's not. Why should it be?

Warlock Punch SDs dorf because it has lots of windup and endlag. Dorf doesn't have exactly the best arieal mobility. SDing because of warlock punch is entirely YOUR FAULT. Not the devs. Why the hell should you be able to chase offstage with a OHKO? If it were up to me, id make warlock punch put you in helpless if done in the air.

 

[Bent 00]

You seem to think being able to do a special attack offstage without SD is a "thing." It's not. Why should it be?

So, being able to use a character's Special moves offstage and survive is not a "thing", you say?

Something that every single character -- except 'Dorf -- can do sounds like a "thing" to me.

This is Minus. Known for over-the-top Smashing. What's more epic and over-the-top than a Flying Falcon Punch?

A Flying Warlock Punch. Except no, scratch that, it kills you if you use it offstage. There is no good reason why.

 

[Bashdemears]

So, being able to use a character's Special moves offstage and survive is not a "thing", you say?

Something that every single character -- except 'Dorf -- can do sounds like a "thing" to me.

This is Minus. Known for over-the-top Smashing. What's more epic and over-the-top than a Flying Falcon Punch?

A Flying Warlock Punch. Except no, scratch that, it kills you if you use it offstage. There is no good reason why.

Every single character expect Jiggs can use Up B for recovery.

 

[Bent 00]

Every single character expect Jiggs can use Up B for recovery.

Jiggs has 10 jumps. It doesn't need an Up B Recovery.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Meta Knight is the only character than can use down b for recovery.

Jiggs has 10 jumps. It doesn't need an Up B Recovery.

9 midair jumps.
I wanna say Marth is the only character that can cancel aerials out of b, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Bashdemears]

Jiggs has 10 jumps. It doesn't need an Up B Recovery.

Warlock punch guaranteed ohkos on hit it doesn't need a cancel or offstage use.

 

[Bent 00]

Warlock punch guaranteed ohkos on hit it doesn't need a cancel or offstage use.

It's extremely unlikely to connect offstage, so it's foolish to attempt as-is; minimal chance of reward VS maximum chance of suicide.

 

[Lightning]

OHMYFUCKINGGOD.

DON'T USE IT OFF STAGE IF YOU KNOW YOU'LL DIE.

IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

 

[Bent 00]

I'm also not saying anything further about it after this post.

I thought you were done here?

Anyhow, remember that this thread is now practically the only place on this entire forum that is in favor of improving Warlock Punch. So if you're against it, don't bother posting rude or discouraging remarks in here.

 

[Bent 00]

- Even if I removed the Cancels from the aerial versions of my v1.0 Custom Warlock Punch, the new trajectories would still allow the use of the move offstage without suiciding...

- What if, instead of being able to Cancel immediately after the W.P. hitbox comes out, 'Dorf could only Cancel right before it comes out? Basically, 'Dorf could opt out of the move just like Bowser can Cancel his F-Smash, but if he does Punch, he has to complete the animation. This would allow 'Dorf to keep his mixup game, while preventing him from escaping whiffed Punches so easily. Is it possible to make a move only Cancellable during a certain window within the move's animation, and then only allow it to Cancel into specific other moves (instead of any move)?

I spent all day testing different variants of these two ideas, trying to come up with something everyone would like -- but nothing worked. Freezes and glitches everywhere, and the few builds that semi-worked were just sad...

If no one else has any interest in this or suggestions for improvement, I'll be sticking with v1.0 for a while.

NEWB and Doqtor Kirby, thanks for being the only two outside of my local group to try out v1.0. Do you have anything left to say about this?

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

I spent all day testing different variants of these two ideas, trying to come up with something everyone would like -- but nothing worked. Freezes and glitches everywhere, and the few builds that semi-worked were just sad...

If no one else has any interest in this or suggestions for improvement, I'll be sticking with v1.0 for a while.

NEWB and Doqtor Kirby, thanks for being the only two outside of my local group to try out v1.0. Do you have anything left to say about this?

I don't, but I know someone who does...

I kinda like this. But it's nowhere to an official change. An aerial cancel sounds good on paper, but not in practice. I do find the punch useful now, but somehow it just doesn't seem right. I'll keep it for now, at least until the next version of Minus.

 

[Glyph]

Bent PM me if you really want a comprehensive argument on why the cancel won't be returning.