Custom Warlock Punch

[Bent 00]

Bent I landed a warlock punch on newb to get my RU spot and saved the replay. Is that not enough to satisfy you?

No, of course not. Why do you care so much? I get that you're against the W.P.C. returning, but this is my personal project now; it doesn't affect you or official Minus unless you want it to. It's sort of like how you made your personal change to D.K., and require that anyone who wants to play you online download your edited FitDonkey.pac.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Except my changes made it into the official release. Just pick up PSA and code it back in.

 

[The Concept]

Bent, is there any official Minus version of the King of Darkness you were fond of?

 

[Bent 00]

Just pick up PSA and code it back in.

That's the plan. Just haven to decide which version to use. That's what the thread is supposed to help me decide.

 

[Pin Clock]

No, of course not. Why do you care so much? I get that you're against the W.P.C. returning, but this is my personal project now; it doesn't affect you or official Minus unless you want it to. It's sort of like how you made your personal change to D.K., and require that anyone who wants to play you online download your edited FitDonkey.pac.

I have told Gold the same privately, but anything requiring the download of alternate files just to play with you is irritating to the other end and discourages people from playing with you. It's encouraged to stick to the official release for the most efficient and convinient online play.

 

[Gold_TSG]

No, of course not. Why do you care so much?

This comes off as rude, and I can ask you the same question, dude.

 

[Bent 00]

Concept, I liked MAX 1.01 'Dorf the best so far, but that version of Warlock Punch was too powerful to have the Cancel.

Pin, I agree. This thread is mainly for my local group and anyone else who misses the W.P.C.; I won't require that my online opponents download the custom version to Brawl me online. I keep a completely vanilla setup separate from my local one, just for online play.

Gold, I'm not the one crashing someone else's topic by discouraging them from doing what the topic was created for. I believe that's a form of Trolling.

You three are being rude now, come on. I created this topic to bring back a part of Minus my group liked, that was removed. I said in the first post, "If you're against bringing back the W.P.C., this isn't the place to say so". I did ask Kienamaru for his reasons against including the W.P.C. in Minus officially, but I didn't ask for any of you to poke fun at this subject. I've put a lot of thought into this; it's important to me. If you can't respect that, then don't post in here.

I've already explained in extensive detail why the W.P.C. is so important to me.

 

[The Concept]

Personally, which of the roman numeral changes do you see is best; being an average of fairness, utility, and aesthetics?

Or is the reason for this thread that you're having trouble finding that which you prefer over the others?

 

[Gold_TSG]

If I was trolling, you would know. I gave up doing that when I stopped being immature. This is a debate, cause this is like the second or third topic you've made about the punch. Seriously, just PSA it back in, it's not overly difficult :T

 

[Kien]

What Gold said. I've only taught him only the basics and he could do that pretty easily.

Bent, and yes, this being the second or third topic abut the punch. Because the first few were stupid and got dropped. Anyway, I've given my opinion.

 

[NEWB]

This topic isn't for debating the validity of the cancel on warlock punch. Bent is trying to do something here for his local play group. He is using us to try and figure out how he can put it back in with his play group, for his and their enjoyment.

Both kien and gold are being very disrespectful here. Bent said that this thread wasn't for you guys and you invited yourselves here anyway. Neither of you have been very helpful and neither of you are have started being mature yet. If the thread ends up getting locked, the fault lies totally on their hands. Bent would have to make another thread and I wouldn't blame him for it in this case. You guys seriously need to learn how to PM in these instances. It's really lame trying to sift through all of the grief that you are giving him.

Casted my vote for giving him the cancel on the taunt, but it sounds like you should just rework the move bent. That seems like what you really want.

 

[Bent 00]

Concept, I like Versions I, III, IV, and VIII the most currently.

I don't like II as much because 'Dorf loses his O.H.K.O. entirely. I'd prefer him to keep his Uncancellable O.H.K.O. as an alternate, non-default input or mode. Falcon can have two versions of the PAWNCH, so why can't 'Dorf? Again, I consider the Gandouken a separate move. Ike has two different modes, Zelda has two different ranges... It should be fine for Ganondorf to have an alternate Warlock Punch input or mode.

I like V-VII even less, because those versions have the Uncancellable O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch as default. Ike doesn't start out in No Sympathy Mode, and Lucario doesn't start out strong and grow weaker. The more useful, versatile Cancelleable Warlock Punch should be default.

If I had to rank the versions from best to worst, I'd say...
VIII > I > III > VI > II > VI > V > VII

I'm not certain about VIII being the best, but it sounds good in concept. It would be the hardest version to code, though. Version I might be tricky for a PSA newbie like me, too. Version III is probably the most balanced approach to bringing back the W.P.C. in a prominent yet fair way, without being too complicated for me to figure out how to code.

 

[Gold_TSG]

How about if side taunt gave the cancel, but the taunt itself was slowed down to compensate the storage?

 

[The Concept]

I'd say this becomes your gateway into learning PSA basics. I plan on learning this summer, once I find a project. I'd say start with the easiest-best version to code, and release updates to your local group as your skill improves, working up to the best damn Warlock Punch you can get. So based on your feedback to me, start around Version III and end with VIII. Who knows, you may find an even better version of the move while coding one of the current ones. I don't discourage you from doing this at all, however, I don't play the Gerudo enough(at all) to have an opinion on it. I will say that if you do end up coding something, I'd be willing to try it out in my custom build and give feedback. I wish you luck.

 

[Bent 00]

What Gold said. I've only taught him only the basics and he could do that pretty easily.

How did you teach Gold PSA? Links to certain tutorials, explanations you typed yourself? I'd appreciate it if you would link me to copies of any such material.

How about if side taunt gave the cancel, but the taunt itself was slowed down to compensate the storage?

Side Taunt just granting one Cancellable Warlock Punch isn't enough -- the focus here is to return the W.P.C. to prominence while keeping it fair. Even Side Taunt switching into Cancellable mode isn't ideal; a balanced Cancellable Warlock Punch will always be more useful and versatile than the Uncancellable O.H.K.O. version, because the latter is so unlikely to land and practically guaranteed to be punished on-whiff. Therefore, the Cancellable, weaker version of Warlock Punch should be default, and the Uncancellable O.H.K.O. version should be an alternate input or mode.

I'd say this becomes your gateway into learning PSA basics. I plan on learning this summer, once I find a project. I'd say start with the easiest-best version to code, and release updates to your local group as your skill improves, working up to the best damn Warlock Punch you can get. So based on your feedback to me, start around Version III and end with VIII. Who knows, you may find an even better version of the move while coding one of the current ones. I don't discourage you from doing this at all, however, I don't play the Gerudo enough(at all) to have an opinion on it. I will say that if you do end up coding something, I'd be willing to try it out in my custom build and give feedback. I wish you luck.

Thanks for the support and feedback! My main obstacles are not having much free time, and having a old computer that freezes constantly.

 

[Gold_TSG]

So why not reverse it? Make a slow taunt charge a super punch and make the normal the weak with cancel?

 

[Bent 00]

So why not reverse it? Make a slow taunt charge a super punch and make the normal the weak with cancel?

Ganondorf shouldn't have to Side Taunt every time he wants to be able to Cancel a weaker Warlock Punch.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I meant taunt to store an uncancellable instakill punch, for when you feel ballsy.

 

[Bent 00]

I meant taunt to store an uncancellable instakill punch, for when you feel ballsy.

That sounds like one of the proposed versions from the first post:

IV.) Taunt Power Up: Cancellable vBrawl W.P. is default; Side Taunt switches to U.C. O.H.K.O. for one use.

Or are you thinking of something different?

 

[Gold_TSG]

Must have missed that in the wall of text. Sounds about what I was proposing.

 

[Thor]

The problem was Thor, that the move isn't actually his worst option at all times. You can gandouken and instantly rush into it with a wizard's foot or flame choke. This let's ganon get past his own projectile before it gets to the enemy. And in the situation that you actually manage to grab someone and they get hit by it, he can KO from one gandouken followup if you know your combos. Not too many other people (none that I can think of) are able to always combo into a kill. This is the reason why Link's mortal draw was returned to suck. Even though I loved the fast one. It had like 70 frames to hit with. Pretty sure it's at 120 now.

K, first I'll say that when I played, the cancel ONLY worked on his punch - if I gandouken'd, there was afterlag equivalent to its current state. If this was in there, I somehow NEVER used it, despite trying for a great deal of time before realizing "Oh, the cancel doesn't work if you gandouken." This problem could also be fixed by only having the cancel frames on the Punch, not the Gandouken itself.

Link's mortal draw wasn't really a problem either, but that's another topic - though I admit I don't really like shield break combos, I'm pretty sure they still work at current speed...

While it is true that getting hit by the punch means you were either unlucky or playing with items or someone else who combod you into it, it's not really fair to use your strongest attack and instantly get out of it. No matter how you look at it. It's like if Link could fully charge a great spin and as soon as he hits you OR a shield, he'd be able to cancel the rest of his spins. That would be unfair. He could throw a rang instantly, or go from a move that kills at 50 with range on both sides to jumping or firing a projectile. You see what I'm getting at here?

False analogy. You can decommit to spin attack charge at any time. It'd be like instant cancelability frames on his Mortal Draw [the slow one[, and I really don't think that's a problem either. And Ganondorf can't shoot projectiles except Gandouken (which had endlag when I played - just add lag to that), so stay away and laugh at it or jump the incoming utilt - or just punish Ganon for it. And there's also the fact that unlike Spin Attack, Warlock Punch has a really small hitbox, so you can safely charge a lot of stuff out of range (or behind him).

And yeah it is fair, because your sense of fairness and mine are entirely different. I think it's fully fair that you get out of a move with over a second of lag, and no way to decommit after using it, with almost zero range, able to act. You don't. We're not going to agree, I don't think.

And OHKOs shouldn't be cancellable during startup, no (Skull bash accepted, because of SD risk) but they don't need endlag either, if they take as long to wind up as the punch does.

If it was ever too safe, I need to redownload 1.01 [add in Wifi] and fight Bent to see what all the fuss is about [apparently our Cancel master], because when someone throws a Warlock Punch at my Falco (or Link, Pikachu, my bad Kirby, etc.), I usually laugh inside.

 

[The Concept]

Off-topic...kind of...but:

...If it was ever too safe, I need to redownload 1.01 [add in Wifi] and fight Bent to see what all the fuss is about...

Just take the FitGanon.pac file from Minus3.01(Max1.01) and put it into the 3.5 build to test online.

 

[Thor]

See I have literally no idea what that means^^^

but if Bent/Gold_TSG/other good Ganon is interested, I can get some help figuring it out and I can see what the fuss is about.

 

[Bent 00]

If it was ever too safe, I need to redownload 1.01 [add in Wifi] and fight Bent to see what all the fuss is about [apparently our Cancel master], because when someone throws a Warlock Punch at my Falco (or Link, Pikachu, my bad Kirby, etc.), I usually laugh inside.

Here's what was problematic about the MAX 1.01 Cancellable O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch, IMO:
- Mainly, it was a spammable O.H.K.O. move that 'Dorf could use rather safely and often. If his opponent had no ranged attacks, (s)he would have a hard time punishing whiffed Punches. No character should be able to throw out O.H.K.O.s every 3 seconds without paying a price for that power. For example, Pikachu's max-charge Skull Bash is likely to suicide on whiff, and Link's Mortal Draw leaves him defenseless while he prepares it.
- Ganondorf's opponent could sidestep dodge the Warlock Punch, but they would not have enough time to do anything to him before he could Cancel out of the whiffed Punch. Any opponent brave enough to try sidestepping this O.H.K.O. point-blank, knowing that 'Dorf could fire a Gandouken instead, should have the opportunity to grab 'Dorf and punish him before he can Cancel.
- The fact that Ganondorf's grounded Warlock Punch could be reflected by shields in MAX 1.01 was inconsequential to any good 'Dorf player; as long as you kept a small length of flat ground behind you, 'Dorf could reliably save himself by mashing Sidestep Dodge or Roll. He could then walk tight back up to his target, taunt, and Punch the foe again while (s)he was defenseless. I thought this was rather fun and amusing, but I don't think my victims did...

Against characters with projectiles, 'Dorf isn't going to land any O.H.K.O.s unless he predicts them well, breaks their shield, or catches them in the early part of Gandouken. Such opponents know this, and simply trump 'Dorf's ranged game if he's too obvious with his Punch.

I won't be able to demonstrate how unfair it was online as I could in-person -- lag throws off the sensitive art of predicting foes a lot -- but I'd be happy to give it a try sometime, Thor. Here's a link to a copy of the necessary MAX 1.01 FitGanon.pac. Before we have our matches, simply navigate to SD / Private / Wii / App / RSBE / pf / fighter / Ganon, rename the Minus 3.5 FitGanon.pac file, and place this file in that folder.

PM me to set up a time to Brawl. Don't be too disappointed if the lag keeps me from showing the full power of the Cancel, though. Play as a close-range character for best results.

 

[Kien]

Don't feel like quoting or debating fairness so I guess not.