Custom Warlock Punch

[Thor]

I actually have to leave for summer college this Thursday, have some time-sensitive DLC to unlock in another game [expires July], and a lot of stuff going on (packing, last-minute prep, etc.), so I doubt we can actually set up a time before I leave, which is unfortunate indeed.

But if I get back and remember about this, I'll be sure to try putting this stuff back in and see how it goes.

 

[Bent 00]

Working full-time leaves me little time for Smash projects...

On the bright side, I did get to play Minus 3.3 with good players today, using MAX 1.01 'Dorf. I tried using the Cancellable Warlock Punch a lot, to test my opinions on it. Even with the Cancel, it got punished most of the time, but when it was successful, that was great. I landed several O.H.K.O.s and one Flying Warlock Punch. As I thought, having a Cancellable O.H.K.O. still feels overpowered.

Thoughts:
- I'm going to try to make Version III, since it doesn't seem so complex.
- I need to use Minus 3.5 'Dorf as a base for this project.
- First thing to figure out is how to make Side Taunt switch to an alternate mode.
- What kind of visual & audio effects should this taunt have?
- Can Side Taunt appear differently going into Mode 2 VS exiting Mode 2?
- All I have to do for Cancellable Warlock Punch is reduce its damage and knockback to vBrawl levels, and...
- Make the grounded Cancel window open the minimum number of frames later to allow a foe barely enough time to grab 'Dorf after sidestepping a Cancellable Warlock Punch.
- Enhance the VFX & SFX of O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch somehow? Bigger flames? More screen shake? Different SFX?
- For Flying O.H.K.O., make it either...
A.) Cancellable into walljump or anything / a jump (ON-HIT ONLY)
B.) Not Cancellable at all, but increase hitbox duration a little
- Either way, make it so 'Dorf can just barely make it back to the ledge after a Flying O.H.K.O. attempt? I don't like guaranteed suicide moves unless you get a guaranteed K.O. or deal lots of damage...
- Landing a Cancellable Flying W.P. should feel great. Landing a O.H.K.O. Flying W.P. should feel AWESOME, but be very risky.

Comments and feedback appreciated.

Now I need to find some good PSA tutorials...

 

[NEWB]

Sounds good to me.

Maybe make him laugh if it lands?

Don't know about changing the taunts. Maybe something like darkness appears going in at the end of the taunt, but fades exiting at the end of taunt.

If you made this version, I might actually consider using it.

 

[Bent 00]

I've been reading some basic PSA guides, but I'm not seeing anything about adding a switchable mode to Ganondorf, like Ness's old Bat Mode...

Anyone in the know care to give me some advice? I'm kinda poking around in the dark, here.

What I'm trying to make is Version III from the first post, but I have no idea how to...

1.) Make cancellable vBrawl-strength Warlock Punch default / "Mode A"
2.) Make "Mode A" Warlock Punch deal vBrawl damage and knockback
3.) Make "Mode A" grounded Warlock Punch cancellable a few frames after the hitbox comes out
4.) Make Side Taunt (or Side Taunt + A/B) switch to alternate Warlock Punch / "Mode B"
5.) Port the un-cancellable O.H.K.O. Warlock Punch from Minus 3.5 to "Mode B"
6.) Make 'Dorf able to just barely make it back to the stage after "Mode B" Flying Warlock Punches
7.) Make both Modes' aerial Warlock Punch cancellable into walljumps (anytime) or anything (on-hit only)
8.) Make Mode choice persist after K.O.
9.) Edit animation of Side Taunt "Mode Change"; differ between enter/exit "Mode B" if possible
10.) Edit animation of "Mode B" Warlock Punch; it should look more powerful than the "Mode A" version

I'm thinking that the logical starting point would be to take 3.5 'Dorf, and somehow incorportate MAX 1.01 Ness's Bat Mode into him... But I can't figure out how to do that... Argh.

Also, side note: I recall saying somewhere that 'Dorf could not cancel Gandouken in MAX 1.01. I went back and tested it, and it looks like I was wrong; there was a small cancel window near the end of the move. It was removed in 3.3, but it didn't make much difference -- I'd like to see that small cancel return to the Gandouken for this project, unless someone has a good reason it shouldn't.

 

[Bent 00]

Update time. I could not get a taunt-switched mode working for Ganondorf, but I have made some interesting changes to 3.5 'Dorf:

Grounded Warlock Punch
- Warlock Punch is now Cancellable into anything immediately after the hitbox comes out.
- Damage reduced from 666 to 66.
- Knockback Growth reduced from 100 to 50.
Warlock Punch remains a very deadly move, but non-lightweight characters with low damage can survive it now. The move is still punishable, but not ridiculously so; either catch Ganondorf as he's winding up the Punch, or predict what he Cancels into and punish that.

Grounded Gandouken
- Unchanged from Minus 3.5.

Aerial ("Flying") Warlock Punch
- Now Cancellable into anything immediately after the hitbox comes out.
- Damage reduced from 666 to 66.
- Knockback Growth reduced from 100 to 50.
- Flub hitboxes added after strong hitbox. 10 damage, 10 Base Knockback, 100 Knockback Growth.
- Momentum changed: Vertical Velocity increased, Horizontal Velocity decreased.
Flying Warlock Punch is now a versatile, powerful offstage move instead of a guaranteed suicide. Ganondorf pops up and forward a bit now; you can use this offstage to approach and recover. If you reverse the Warlock Punch, 'Dorf will pop up and forward at a higher velocity -- try Cancelling the Punch into an aerial immediately for a big leap!

Aerial Gandouken
- Now Cancellable at Frame 100
No longer a guaranteed suicide move, Gandouken can be safely used offstage to catch airborne opponents. Ganondorf can jump out of the move, follow up with an aerial, and still return to the stage. Cancelled Flame Choke and Dark Dive are especially stylish followups.

I believe these tweaks make Ganondorf better without making him too overpowered. The new aerial Warlock Punch physics have changed the move from something you'd never want to use into something awesome that you'll use often. The Warlock Punch Cancel gives 'Dorf some much-needed flexibility, offstage mobility, and the ability to fake out his foes.

That said, I haven't had the chance to try out these changes against human opponents, so consider this a work-in-progress. If this interests you, please help me test it and post your feedback here. I'm willing to make further tweaks to keep the move fair, without sacrificing the Cancel. I'm pretty happy with it as-is, though.

Download link: Cancellable Warlock Punch v1.0

This works in Brawl- 3.5 and 3.Q.

 

[NEWB]

Seeing as how this move is a recovery, kill move, and chase tactic, you should most definetly reduce the damage further. I don't understand the values really, but it shouldn't be as strong as the version.

This is an observation before testing it. It's just to me, it's one thing to restore the cancel, it's another thing to blatantly buff ganondorf like this. It puts random focus on his air game when this guy is designed to fight close to the ground. You yourself said that this move should be now used more, and that sounds like a step in the wrong direction.

It does sound cool though, to say the least. I assuming you learned and did this yourself, so congrats!

 

[Kien]

There's another way you could go about this. As much as I disagree with that punch being buffed in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Bent 00]

There's another way you could go about this. As much as I disagree with that punch being buffed in any way, shape, or form.

What way is that? I'm open to suggestions.

My basic goal here is to make Ganondorf's Neutral B a useful move, at least as useful as the Falcon Punch. Almost all of the other characters' Neutral B moves are very useful attacks that they can use effectively several times per match. 'Dorf's Warlock Punch should be no different.

 

[Bent 00]

Seeing as how this move is a recovery, kill move, and chase tactic, you should most definetly reduce the damage further.

Quite a few moves in Minus are all three of those things. The hitbox window is only 2 frames long, and its startup is very obvious and slow. That said, I'd rather reduce the damage and/or knockback than remove the Cancel.

This is an observation before testing it. It's just to me, it's one thing to restore the cancel, it's another thing to blatantly buff ganondorf like this. It puts random focus on his air game when this guy is designed to fight close to the ground. You yourself said that this move should be now used more, and that sounds like a step in the wrong direction.

Who says 'Dorf can't have a good offstage game too? He'll always be better above ground, but I see no reason for him not to be able to chase his opponents offstage.

Encouraging more frequent use of Warlock Punch is a goal of mine. I like it better as a tool for mobility and mixups rather than a super strong move that works too rarely to be viable.

As long as these changes don't Buff Ganondorf past the likes of Lucario, R.O.B., and Dedede, I don't think they're overpowered. Before, 'Dorf was already "A" Tier -- I'd be happy if these tweaks nudge him up to the top of "A" Tier or the bottom of "S" Tier. 'Dorf is the mascot of Minus, after all; he should be one of the best! Besides, he's gotta make up for being the worst character in vBrawl.

It does sound cool though, to say the least. I assuming you learned and did this yourself, so congrats!

Thanks! These changes were pretty easy to make, though. Learning PSA isn't easy -- I've got much to learn before I can do anything advanced, like adding a taunt-switched mode.

 

[NEWB]

It's just that the thing is, dorf is the strongest character in minus. The rest of the cast is weak comparatively, which is why they are given chasing and mobility tools. Dorf's only niche is hitting hard and he does hit so very hard that it doesn't make sense to give him any of these, well none that are too effective.

While ganondorf certainly does leave an impression.... on your face. I wouldn't really go around calling him the mascot for minus. I mean yes, but express that it is your opinion,

Come to think of it, did the devs have a character that they used as the minus model? Or is it that akuma guy from street fighter?

 

[Bent 00]

I said Ganondorf is the Minus mascot because...

A.) Check out the Brawl- Minus banner image on Facebook.
B.) He has the most damaging attacks in the game, in a mod where everyone is OP.

Warlock Punch tends to be one of the things new Minus players remember most. That said, it isn't very viable in its current official state.

 

[Pin Clock]

Ganondorf already has a good off-stage game. Dark Dive, Flame Choke, Wiz Kick, and dAir with the occasional fAir to the face, are all Ganon needs. You can also launch Gnadoukens towards recovring foes, but I don't believe it accomplishes much.

Brawl Minus does not have a single character model, in fact everyone is modeled after and/or takes ideas from a bunch of characters from various games.

 

[Kien]

'Dorf is the mascot of Minus, after all; he should be one of the best! Besides, he's gotta make up for being the worst character in vBrawl.

1. This is a bad mentality to have when balancing a game. You don't want to make a particular character ONE OF THE BEST. Your goal is to get everyone on an even playing field.

 

[Bent 00]

1. This is a bad mentality to have when balancing a game. You don't want to make a particular character ONE OF THE BEST. Your goal is to get everyone on an even playing field.

True, but perfect balance is nigh-impossible to achieve. Minus feels more balanced than any vanilla Smash, though...

Anyhow, I don't think these changes give Ganondorf an unfair advantage. Has anyone tried out the FitGanon.pac I posted? I plan to test it with my local players next Thursday.

 

[NEWB]

I haven't yet because I haven't had time to play. I might actually do that today.

 

[Bent 00]

I'm looking forward to testing this with my local group tomorrow.

 

[Bent 00]

Testing with my local group went well. Our Ganondorf mains really liked being able to Warlock Punch offstage without suiciding, and none of the other players had any complaints about it. If anything, they were glad 'Dorf ventured offstage more so they could spike or gimp him.

I worried that it would be too easy to catch opponents offstage with aerial Gandoukens, but my friends dodged them just fine. They also learned the trajectory of cancelled aerial Reverse Warlock Punches quickly, and how to punish it. Warlock Punches flew frequently in our matches, but all of 'Dorf's other moves were used to no less extent. The Cancellable Warlock Punch is still plenty punishable as it winds up.

Ganondorf mains, I recommend that you try this out before judging it -- it's a great change IMO.

Devs, won't you give it a chance? What would have to be changed for you to consider allowing the Warlock Punch Cancel to return officially?

I'm guessing you'll remain adamant about it staying out... :/

 

[Bent 00]

Cross-posting this here since it'll probably get deleted from the thread I originally posted it in...

---

Ganon shouldn't have a cancel on his punch in any instance.

That's what the devs always say, but I don't get why you all aren't open to the idea of Warlock Punch being a useful move. The Neutral B move of almost every other character in Minus is a highly useful option that should be used often. Warlock Punch should be the same!

It's not "set in stone" that it must be the highly-punishable O.H.K.O. move it is now. Which Ganondorf mains out there would rather keep Warlock Punch as-is, rather than sacrifice most of its power in exchange for it becoming a much more versatile tool? It's especially dumb that offstage Warlock Punch and Gandouken are guaranteed suicide moves which aren't even remotely likely to K.O. an opponent.

The only person outside of my local group who's been willing to try the changes I made to Warlock Punch has been NEWB. I hoped that the dev team would give it a shot, and tell me what else would have to be changed for them to consider allowing the Warlock Punch Cancel to officially return... But you won't even give it a chance, and won't give a reason why not other than the same tired reasons:

"That's just the way it has to be." Not necessarily.
"It's so powerful, it should be easy to punish." So re-work the move then. Trade power for utility.
"You're not supposed to use it offstage." What a waste of potential.

Other than Gold, does any of the dev team and testers main 'Dorf? You all dismiss him pretty quickly whenever I bring this up, even though it would only improve the game if Warlock Punch were re-worked to be more useful.

I get that you're tired of me bringing it up -- what I don't get is why you insist on leaving such a useless move alone, when you could make it much better.

I hoped to see a more detailed answer than essentially "Nope" from one of our best players.

---

Not expecting any serious replies from devs or testers at this point. I guess there's some things we'll never agree on.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Y'know, as a PM Ganon and Zeus Ganon, I probably have no right to be saying this, but they're right. WP has zip reason to be cancellable, air or ground. We're not trying to make another Captain Falcon, and if you want to use nspec mid-air anyway, use Falcon. WP cancel has no place in minus, or any Smash for that matter. I mean, it's cool that you and your local crew like it, but that doesn't mean everybody else does as well. Sorry man.

[off topic: Hbox got second at evo. yeah buddy!]

 

[Bent 00]

Y'know, as a PM Ganon and Zeus Ganon, I probably have no right to be saying this, but they're right.

Minus Ganondorf need not be compared to his forms in other versions of Smash. If you want to go that way, though...

- IIRC, offstage Warlock Punch is not a guaranteed suicide move in vBrawl. Dunno if it is in Project M or Melee.
- 3.5 Warlock Punch is just a beefed-up version of its vBrawl self; it's functionally the same. How boring.

WP has zip reason to be cancellable, air or ground. WP cancel has no place in minus, or any Smash for that matter.

Why not? I've heard plenty of people say they don't like the idea, but no valid reasons why the Cancel shouldn't return, considering that the move would be re-worked to make it fair.

We're not trying to make another Captain Falcon, and if you want to use nspec mid-air anyway, use Falcon.

That's part of the problem, though: As-is, Warlock Punch is too similar to Falcon Punch. Having the Cancel made it unique. Taking it away moved 'Dorf closer back to clone status, and that's a bad thing.

I mean, it's cool that you and your local crew like it, but that doesn't mean everybody else does as well. Sorry man.

Has anyone besides NEWB even tried the changes I made to 3.5 Warlock Punch?

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Has anyone besides NEWB even tried the changes I made to 3.5 Warlock Punch?

Actually, I have.

 

[NEWB]

Well, there is quite a lot of yes and no here. Ganon having a less useful nuetral special makes him different from the rest of the cast. However, that is not necessarily a good thing. Part of what makes characters unique shouldn't be having a flaw like this. Bent is very right in this respect. I mean, eruption is a now more useless move and it's getting some function back, right? Sure, one might disrupt and the other one has a chance of koing, but neither are useful. Why should one be changed and not the other?

On the other hand, these moves are being looked at with respect to their own characters Movesets. Ganondorf already has all the tools he needs to have a varying and versatile playstyle. Better recovery than falcon, tech chase move, raw power in exchange for more combosand speed, deadly recovery, suicide move, 3 means of spiking, range, and an OHKO move. For this reason, he doesn't need or desperately need other tools.

I am mostly in favor of not restoring the cancel but I also can't help but see his point. Minus has succeeded in taking his punch and improving it like it promises to do, but it lacks the functionality that other moves have.

Last thing to be said here: not all moves are meant to be so fully functional since no character should have a lot of coverage.

 

[Bent 00]

Actually, I have.

Ah, good. What did you think? Could the move be further modified to the point you would consider it better than the default 3.5 version?

You said that you don't approve of the Cancel -- would you be OK with the Punch only being Cancellable in the air?

How about the modified trajectories of aerial Warlock Punch and Gandouken? The forward momentum boost in the default 3.5 aerial Punch serves no purpose other than making 'Dorf suicide.

 

[Lightning]

I told myself not to say anything but I'm doing it anyway. I'm also not saying anything further about it after this post.

That's what the devs always say, but I don't get why you all aren't open to the idea of Warlock Punch being a useful move. The Neutral B move of almost every other character in Minus is a highly useful option that should be used often. Warlock Punch should be the same!

The Warlock Punch is meant to be used as a kill move. You can't just throw out a Warlock Punch like you can with, for example, Fox's Laser. Also, keep in mind that almost every Neutral B serves a different purpose. Most are projectiles, some can reflect/take in projectiles, some are just attacks that are good finishers, and then theres Captain Falcon and Ganondorf which have killer punches (err, Donkey Kong's punch also is a killer, but I'm not going to talk about that). The whole risk vs. reward punches. They're meant kill.

It's not "set in stone" that it must be the highly-punishable O.H.K.O. move it is now. Which Ganondorf mains out there would rather keep Warlock Punch as-is, rather than sacrifice most of its power in exchange for it becoming a much more versatile tool? It's especially dumb that offstage Warlock Punch and Gandouken are guaranteed suicide moves which aren't even remotely likely to K.O. an opponent.

You're right. It isn't "set in stone'. But, this is what it was designed to do. In Melee, it was a slow punch that dealt a lot of damage. In Brawl, it was a slow punch that dealt a lot of damage. Also, in every build of Minus, it was a slow punch that kills you. Chances are, it's going to continue to be a slow punch that will kill you. Canceling is not an option for a move that's an instant kill.

"That's just the way it has to be." Not necessarily.

Actually, it is. It was designed to be a slow move that kills.

"It's so powerful, it should be easy to punish." So re-work the move then. Trade power for utility.

Why rework a move that's already useful? Build a house. Tear it down. Rebuild it. No point, right?

"You're not supposed to use it offstage." What a waste of potential.

There are a lot of moves that shouldn't be used offstage. But, they work amazingly onstage. And it isn't a waste of potential. Certain characters work better on land than in air. (Example: Jigglypuff has an amazing air game. Can't say the same for when she lands..)

I get that you're tired of me bringing it up -- what I don't get is why you insist on leaving such a useless move alone, when you could make it much better.

It isn't a "useless move". It's very useful onstage. You need to look at it from a different angle. Find a way to use it. It's not meant to be used air borne. It doesn't have to be useful offstage. There are some moves that will never be useful off stage. Besides, you have so many other attacks to use. Why use the slowest and most powerful move in Minus?
Besides, Ganondorf is a heavy character with short jumps. He works better on the ground than in air.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Ah, good. What did you think? Could the move be further modified to the point you would consider it better than the default 3.5 version?
It was amusing for a while... and then it just became stupid. I have no other comments outside of that.
You said that you don't approve of the Cancel -- would you be OK with the Punch only being Cancellable in the air?
Perhaps. But then it might get the syndrome stated above.
How about the modified trajectories of aerial Warlock Punch and Gandouken? The forward momrntum boost in the default 3.5 aerial Punch serves no purpose other than making 'Dorf suicide.
The forward boost in 3.5 is to help in recovery. Of course you're gonna suicide if you're going the wrong way. As for Gandouken.... no comment. >.>

Orange italics, mate.
e~

Which Ganondorf mains out there would rather keep Warlock Punch as-is, rather than sacrifice most of its power in exchange for it becoming a much more versatile tool?

Me.