Brawl Minus 4.0b is here!

[Valravn]

A single use that isn't likely to happen doesn't make it suddenly acceptable.

I wasn't aware that you had never seen the move used before.

It can be used to force a well-timed ledge attack or force an opponent to recover high when placed at the ledge. It can be placed under a platform to force an opponent up and over it or spend time knocking the spring out of the way to get through. It can be dropped below a falling enemy to force them to land to one side or the other, allowing dair followups at low percents. It can be placed in front of a high-commitment approach to clang or flinch the opponent and set up for aerial followups.

If it were only there to annoy, it would be useless. But it is not. Removing these options means it's just there to drop on people or recover with. It would remove interesting options and force the character to use safer and less exciting tactics. I can't see how making the spring disappear would improve the character at all.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I wasn't aware that you take things so literal, and manage to only pick what you want to read when it comes to your responses.

If you've been reading at all, you'd have noticed I said it should function like the other traps, in that it should be used with skill and timing for its purposes, not just left on the stage with two brain dead options. I've used sonic before, and faced him even more than that, and I am well aware how the spring works. I apologize if adding a timer to it just ruins your day as a trap on stage, but you'll have to learn how to strategize around it. No attack has any right to last forever, since every option will be covered with it, be it damage, stage control, disruption, or killing. No char should force the opponent to either stop the flow of the match to get rid of it, or risk taking the hit while ignoring it. That is bad design, no matter how you want to interpret it.

 

[Valravn]

I disagree with you, but I apologize for being rude about it.

I can't see why a move has no right to last until it is used again, so long as it doesn't provide direct disjoint. It's super predictable where the hitbox will be at all times, and both players have a choice as to whether they want to even interact with it. Whether it lasts forever or for half a second, the character will not meaningfully change. The spring cannot stop a match, and it cannot end a match. Only the players can, and they have no reason to.

It doesn't make sense to me to weaken a move for the sake of it, rather than there being an obvious balance problem to solve. If Sonic needs nerfing - and I honestly think that no character needs an overall nerf - then it should be by increasing risk, not decreasing reward. Give him more lag on whiffed grabs, make him easier to kill, reduce the disjoint on his aerials so that he has to aim them slightly.

 

[Bent 00]

Idea: If Sonic's recovery move (Spring) gets to be useful as a trap, then Snake's Cypher should have some extra functionality too.

IIRC, Project M added electric effects and armor to it... How about we make the Cypher have a hitbox on it when it explodes?

For anyone who doesn't know, Snake's Cypher only explodes if you use Up-B again while Cypher #1 is still on-screen.

 

[Xentas]

Why not make it fire and more controllable after release? I don't know if I ever found it useful for ANYTHING but recovery. Maybe if someone was in the air by coincidence, and for retreat, but I still don't think it's an efficient move for damage.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I disagree with you, but I apologize for being rude about it.

I can't see why a move has no right to last until it is used again, so long as it doesn't provide direct disjoint. It's super predictable where the hitbox will be at all times, and both players have a choice as to whether they want to even interact with it. Whether it lasts forever or for half a second, the character will not meaningfully change. The spring cannot stop a match, and it cannot end a match. Only the players can, and they have no reason to.

It doesn't make sense to me to weaken a move for the sake of it, rather than there being an obvious balance problem to solve. If Sonic needs nerfing - and I honestly think that no character needs an overall nerf - then it should be by increasing risk, not decreasing reward. Give him more lag on whiffed grabs, make him easier to kill, reduce the disjoint on his aerials so that he has to aim them slightly.

Nobody said anything about weakening the spring itself, only adding a timer to its life in existence. Plant spring, stays for roughly 15 seconds, then vanishes if nothing happens to it.

 

[Xentas]

In my opinion, all items have no need to be infinite.

And nerfing an S tier character that is as slippery as a fish and easy to btfo? Do you think they WANT to destroy Sonic? Minus has justified him, not OP'd him, really. He has THAT GOOD of a metagame. His moves have bare reach, he's as avoidable as he can be an avoider. Reducing the spring is good. Nerfing Sonic totally is silly.

 

[Bent 00]

I don't know if I ever found it useful for ANYTHING but recovery. Maybe if someone was in the air by coincidence, and for retreat, but I still don't think it's an efficient move for damage.

Recovery is all Cypher is good for as-is. But I think it could be useful as a flashy KO move off the top, in the same way C4 is -- if Snake knocks his opponent just short of the upper blast zone, he could send a cancelled Cypher up there and detonate it for a KO. Snake can already do this with Grenades, but I don't see why Cypher can't have a hitbox too.

As for Sonic's Spring... how long does it currently last? A 10-15 second timer on it sounds fair to me.

 

[Xentas]

It is infinite, if not, it's an amount of time over a minute. 10 to 15 is pretty much the best imo too.

That's a good idea for Snake, what about changing the cypher's flight/launch mechanics or making something along the lines of Fox's Slow Illusion? (Slow launch, different mechanics) I'd imagine that giving it some nice new powers. Snake being UP imo, he needs some touchups like that. He could be able to launch it and quickly cancel then control it to some degree but makes him a bit vulnerable, maybe. Or it can be sent in more directions as he releases (just left and right).

 

[Valravn]

Nobody said anything about weakening the spring itself, only adding a timer to its life in existence. Plant spring, stays for roughly 15 seconds, then vanishes if nothing happens to it.

I didn't say anything about nerfing the spring hitbox. I was referring to Sonic's spring-generating up-B move, which would be weakened if given a timer. I don't think reducing its lifespan would harm the character much at all, and I think it would be a pointless change.

 

[Xentas]

But 10-15 is surely not unlimited, and no other move like it is unlimited. Neither, it does not have to be unlimited to apply all the techniques you're talking about. There is no reason for it to be unlimited.

 

[Valravn]

Toon Link did not meaningfully change as a character when his arrows gained a timer. They used to last forever as well. Nobody who used the arrows for combos lost the ability to do that. Nobody who ran around spamming arrows stopped doing that. It became very slightly harder to stack two arrows on an edge and leave them there forever, but that was never a strong strategy to begin with.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Then Sonic will hardly change as a character with a 15 second spring. Glad you agree.

 

[Valravn]

That was never my point of contention. My point is that it doesn't make sense to make useless changes for the sake of it. I would be saying the same thing if you were suggesting that every second Waddle Dee should be purple. The only thing this would remove is people saying 'what, the spring just bounces forever?' when they first see if, and replace it with 'what, the spring bounces for so long!', which is again not a significant change. It seems like an utter waste of time and effort.

 

[Neville]

In my opinion, all items have no need to be infinite.

And nerfing an S tier character that is as slippery as a fish and easy to btfo? Do you think they WANT to destroy Sonic? Minus has justified him, not OP'd him, really. He has THAT GOOD of a metagame. His moves have bare reach, he's as avoidable as he can be an avoider. Reducing the spring is good. Nerfing Sonic totally is silly.

The character you just described is A tier, not S tier. Stier characters would not have the weaknesses you just described.

That was never my point of contention. My point is that it doesn't make sense to make useless changes for the sake of it. I would be saying the same thing if you were suggesting that every second Waddle Dee should be purple. The only thing this would remove is people saying 'what, the spring just bounces forever?' when they first see if, and replace it with 'what, the spring bounces for so long!', which is again not a significant change. It seems like an utter waste of time and effort.

Gold's point was that it isn't a change you can complain about since it doesn't completely redefine Sonic as a character, and gives people a way to get around spring without getting punished for it. You said it yourself, that it doesn't change much Sonic so why not?

 

[Xentas]

Fox can be predicted and his hard to control, as well as being a lighter weight character. His lasers can only be used at long distances for their percentages of damage (a meager 1%, Falco has 2% and Wolf's do 4% with extra knockback). He has as many options as Sonic. He can cancel into as many moves as Sonic. However, his moves have the extra reach and power, but he's not as fast at all. He has lag and an inability to use his powerful moves easily. Oh, and his illusion can only do damage after it becomes predictable. I would say that Minus S tier is given to the most broken characters, and Sonic and Fox are incredibly broken, as well as Yoshi and Lucario. If that's the case, he's the best A+, and Fox somehow isn't equally advantageously broken yet predictable with a few notable and mostly minor disadvantages.

 

[Neville]

Fox can be predicted and his hard to control. His lasers can only be used at long distances. He has as many options as Sonic. He can cancel into as many moves as Sonic. However, his moves have the extra reach and power, but he's not as fast at all. He has lag and an inability to use his powerful moves easily. Oh, and his illusion can only do damage after it becomes predictable. I would say that Minus S tier is given to the most broken characters, and Sonic and Fox are incredibly broken, as well as Yoshi and Lucario.

Sonic is not incredibly broken though. He's light, has incredebly weak moves and has to work to string his moves togetther. Fox on the other hand, has some of the easiest strings in minus, resulting in some of the easiest 0-death comboes in Minus. His kill moves having lag doesn't matter because Fox can string nearly all his moves into his kill moves. See this for an example of this. Fox also has a much easier time pressuring and overwhelming his opponents, and has a much better matchup spread overall than Sonic. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I think Sonic is nowhere near good enough to be considered S tier.

 

[Xentas]

Wait, you can stun a character with the reflector? I thought that was just Falco.

But I see. And damn, that's all regular attacks.

 

[Valravn]

Gold's point was that it isn't a change you can complain about since it doesn't completely redefine Sonic as a character, and gives people a way to get around spring without getting punished for it. You said it yourself, that it doesn't change much Sonic so why not?

I'm complaining about it because the next version is supposed to be the final version. This is not the time to make seemingly superfluous changes. I don't think the character needs the nerf, as minor as it sounds.

damn, that's all regular attacks.

Beyond that, he can fly. And do whatever this is. Note that if Fox flies through a spring with a reflector out, it's his hitbox now. Forever. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that! (He can also do this with stealth rocks, arrows, icebergs, and more. )

I feel like people are too quick to nerf things that sound better on paper than they truly are. I don't mind when my roommate steals my spring hitbox because I can just not run into it. I have to work around it, but he had to make the effort to 'put it' there, just as I did to spawn it.

I wish every character could be as fun to play (as or against) as Fox. Some are pretty close, some are getting there, and a few need a lot of help. Zelda has a rather one-dimensional game plan, since she can't protect her diagonals well enough to ever want to approach. Ice Climbers have the technical fun of desyncs, but can never keep both characters together to do them in a world of massive hitboxes and hitstun. (Especially since Nana has terrible mitigation skills.) I don't even know what Kirby brings to the table that nobody else does better. Bowser takes forever to die, but is literally a punching bag for Pichu, Fox, Meta Knight, Sonic, Pikachu, or any other character that can get up in his grill and stay there for 250%.

Can we focus on making the weaker or less exciting characters better? It feels like almost every suggestion I've been reading on here lately has been a nerf to a character that is actually fun to play.

On that note, who plays Kirby and why do you do it? Nobody I know considers the character good. One guy plays him occasionally because he's a huge Kirby fan, but even he has switched to Meta Knight and Dedede so that he can win sometimes. What does that character need to thrive in this game?

 

[Xentas]

I like how you think... That would be fantastic, but idk what's gonna happen.
To be honest, why don't they try to put everybody on S or A tier level? It's much more faithful to the asthetic, though I could imagine it would be hard. Hell, they could look at Link and Toon link and go from there. (Both are A- tier?) Some of the plans for 4.0a as I've heard seem to reflect more buffs then more (any) nerfs.
Fox can cancel into anything with both illusions. The slow one gives out damage and is great for capturing an opponent for a Fox Fire. HOW THE HELL DO YOU MAKE HIM BE AIRFOX????? That's awesome.

 

[Neville]

I'm complaining about it because the next version is supposed to be the final version. This is not the time to make seemingly superfluous changes. I don't think the character needs the nerf, as minor as it sounds.



Beyond that, he can fly. And do whatever this is. Note that if Fox flies through a spring with a reflector out, it's his hitbox now. Forever. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that! (He can also do this with stealth rocks, arrows, icebergs, and more. )

I feel like people are too quick to nerf things that sound better on paper than they truly are. I don't mind when my roommate steals my spring hitbox because I can just not run into it. I have to work around it, but he had to make the effort to 'put it' there, just as I did to spawn it.

I wish every character could be as fun to play (as or against) as Fox. Some are pretty close, some are getting there, and a few need a lot of help. Zelda has a rather one-dimensional game plan, since she can't protect her diagonals well enough to ever want to approach. Ice Climbers have the technical fun of desyncs, but can never keep both characters together to do them in a world of massive hitboxes and hitstun. (Especially since Nana has terrible mitigation skills.) I don't even know what Kirby brings to the table that nobody else does better. Bowser takes forever to die, but is literally a punching bag for Pichu, Fox, Meta Knight, Sonic, Pikachu, or any other character that can get up in his grill and stay there for 250%.

Can we focus on making the weaker or less exciting characters better? It feels like almost every suggestion I've been reading on here lately has been a nerf to a character that is actually fun to play.

On that note, who plays Kirby and why do you do it? Nobody I know considers the character good. One guy plays him occasionally because he's a huge Kirby fan, but even he has switched to Meta Knight and Dedede so that he can win sometimes. What does that character need to thrive in this game?

The spring thing is mostly a game design philosophy rather than a thing that needs to be balanced. And when it comes to Kirby, calling Darxmarx

 

[Mawootad]

4.0 is actually looking to be fairly light on balance changes at the moment, since despite a couple of missteps 4.0b was fairly on point. A handful of fighters were off the mark but in general the state of the game is fairly good right now. There are some big gameplay changes planned for 4.0, but these are either straight buffs or sidegrade fixes to some deeply flawed mechanics.

 

[Xentas]

How is that fairly light? You just said there are big gameplay changes in the form of buffs and fixes.

That's got weight, IMO. lol

 

[Fivavoa]

This is not the time to make seemingly superfluous changes. I don't think the character needs the nerf, as minor as it sounds.

you can say that the fact that tink's arrow timer is superfluous as it doesn't remove most common strategies, but the fact for example someone who's aware they're there forever and instead build a strategy around that idea to slow the game down to a crawl
the same thing can be applied here, the fact that its dumb to think about abusing the fact it can stay somewhere forever, it's that there can form some kind of strategy around that which has the potential to really worsen the game experience.

it's really double edged, if it's so trivial of a change then it shouldn't matter if it's either there or not, but the chance of the former being a thing in the supposed "final" build has more downsides than it not being there, even though it's not extremely detrimental.

 

[Valravn]

My brother is/was an arrow spamming nincompoop and none of our matches has ever slowed down to a crawl. They've slowed down a little bit as I avoid the maze of arrows, but that's just the character. There's nothing wrong with a slower match, so long as it's because we're thinking harder about what we're doing. For an eternal spring to slow the game down so much, it would have to force the opponent to do something about it or risk losing the game. And... it never can.

There is no trap that Sonic can set up where you have to move towards the spring and get hit or risk losing a stock. There is no reason to fear a strategy based around the spring lasting forever because it would be a strategy with millions of holes. For every option an opponent could take that would hit them with a spring, there are thousands of other options that have nothing to do with it.

DK's cargo infinite in smash 64 is an example of a 'choice of damnations'. You either mash out and take more damage, or you don't mash out and remain in the cargo throw forever. The spring is not like that. You can go anywhere on the stage to avoid it. You can even go through it with a lot of very safe options.