Brawl Minus 4.0b is here!

[Thor]

It makes them more of a choice than an obligation. Setting up between stocks is too free to protect the ledge, which is not something anyone should be able to do. Setting one up on the ledge while someone is off stage makes it part of his edge guarding tools, and it becomes a choice of committing to the chase or setting up for their return, making them very valuable no matter the situation. Besides, no character can just stay off stage for 15 seconds to wait out the timer and be able to safely recover.

*emphasis above is mine*

... nerf Snake?

If they recover onstage or sweetspot around the arrows, it moots the point... the arrows can usually be avoided, it just makes their job trickier and helps limit a few options.

On the subject of timers on active hitboxes, why do Toon Link's arrows last 15 seconds while Sonic's spring lasts forever [if it's bouncing]? Could a timer be put in place on that if Tink's timer is there to stay?

 

[Gold_TSG]

I don't see why the same changes can't be made to other chars to tone down a couple things in the same manner. Sonic having infinite spring is kinda stupid at this point ever since people have found how strong he can be in fairly abusive ways with boost. He shouldn't require something like that since it isn't his style and doesn't exactly "benefit" him in any matchup. IIRC, Snake's dsmash isn't infinite, though I could be recalling wrong. If it is, I feel that too could be put on a timer (his down B is already on one, they just extended the time it lasts).

 

[Mawootad]

*emphasis above is mine*

... nerf Snake?

If they recover onstage or sweetspot around the arrows, it moots the point... the arrows can usually be avoided, it just makes their job trickier and helps limit a few options.

On the subject of timers on active hitboxes, why do Toon Link's arrows last 15 seconds while Sonic's spring lasts forever [if it's bouncing]? Could a timer be put in place on that if Tink's timer is there to stay?

Being able to put a trap in front of/on the ledge is overwhelmingly stronger than putting a trap on the stage in front of the ledge, and TL is still very capable of doing that with only 20 second arrow timers

 

[Pin Clock]

Snake's dSmash only lasts a minute, but it's much more avoidable than TL putting arrows on the edge.

As for Sonic's Spring, it wasn't nerfed alongside TL's arrows since Sonic can only have 1 spring out at a time.

 

[Thor]

Being able to put a trap in front of/on the ledge is overwhelmingly stronger than putting a trap on the stage in front of the ledge, and TL is still very capable of doing that with only 20 second arrow timers

15 seconds or 20?

Snake's dSmash only lasts a minute, but it's much more avoidable than TL putting arrows on the edge.

As for Sonic's Spring, it wasn't nerfed alongside TL's arrows since Sonic can only have 1 spring out at a time.

Sonic's spring sets up combos as a meteor smash, and Sonic can convert from almost literally anywhere on screen if he hasn't boosted in the last second [except the timer is shorter than that]. With exception of light arrows [which are easily the rarest, unless that was changed in 4.0b], Toon Link's arrows don't do that...

But I suppose this makes some sense.

 

[Valravn]

It should also be noted that most ledge attacks will clang with (and destroy) Sonic's spring if timed properly. As far as I know, arrows are more complex to get around. (Though still pretty possible.)

 

[Thor]

It should also be noted that most ledge attacks will clang with (and destroy) Sonic's spring if timed properly. As far as I know, arrows are more complex to get around. (Though still pretty possible.)

I personally wish shielding it would get rid of it, but I don't know if that's easy to do [or balanced]. I think shielding arrows disarms the hitbox, although often it visually stays there anyway.

 

[vanity.]

This is a minor thing, but Peach's dash attack isn't cancelable into everything. I was disappointed when I discovered that it wasn't cancelable into her taunts.

To add, you also can't cancel dash attack into shield, although that might make it too safe on the first hit. I'm also not sure if it can be cancelled into jumps and grabs. However, the way it is now is fine.

As for Sonic's spring, it is pretty stupid how you can't really get rid of it safely. It's only slightly easier than getting rid of old TL arrows. Sonic is already an amazing character, and the spring puts him a little bit over the top. If it just stayed momentarily, or was easier to remove, it would be much more fair.

 

[Valravn]

You literally just have to jab the spring. Anything that clangs with it destroys it with minimal risk to you.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

im pretty sure not every single character in this game needs to have a taunt that does an effect, the ones that do have an effect does something to make a taunt to that player unique. if every character was to have an effect from the taunt, then it wouldn't be unique

Yeah no one needs anything really but what would make the taunt unique would be simply having different hitboxes. Two characters who have taunts that don't do anything don't have unique taunts according to your logic. Everyone's taunts are unique no matter what. The only way the taunts could be made not unique is if they're all made to have the same animation and effect somehow. My proposal is that some have at least a modest hitbox or some sort of utility, at least one per character, considering some characters have seemingly useless ones like Fox and Ganondorf, as they serve no intended purpose for their playstyle. Falcon's makes sense, Lucario's makes sense. So long as we're distributing taunts to certain characters for no particular reason why not at least add some reason by giving all characters some sort of UNIQUE special taunt?

 

[vanity.]

You literally just have to jab the spring. Anything that clangs with it destroys it with minimal risk to you.

When you're fighting the character with the fastest movement, having to go up and jab the spring is actually pretty risky and time consuming, especially if you're a slower character. It takes little effort for Sonic to merely come up to you and punish. It's not like you can ignore it easily. Sonic gets a free tech chase option if it hits you, or if it hits you off the stage, you're in a worse position. So no, I don't think it's that simple. And this doesn't even exclusively apply to a jab, this can apply to if you want to remove the spring with any move, Sonic can still punish you. Some are more safe because they have less endlag, but the point still stands.

 

[Gold_TSG]

There is no reason to put time and effort into special taunts for every character because there is very little for the team to spare these days, as has been mentioned before. These "useful" taunts on certain characters were thrown on back when the team was not only larger, but had the time to spare to code them, and they were really only added "because it'd be cool."

 

[Thor]

You literally just have to jab the spring. Anything that clangs with it destroys it with minimal risk to you.

In addition to a clank animation that causes additional lag, the spring is not always at a jab-able height [poor Kirby's jab probably can only hit it less than 50% of the time]. Sonic is also extremely fast and if he's actually onstage, you trying to remove the spring is both conspicuous and easily punished.

There is no reason to put time and effort into special taunts for every character because there is very little for the team to spare these days, as has been mentioned before. These "useful" taunts on certain characters were thrown on back when the team was not only larger, but had the time to spare to code them, and they were really only added "because it'd be cool."

We should put this on a banner or something... I admit there's one I want for ZSS still [already described countless times, and probably impractical], but even then, useful taunts both need a concept and implementation which is quite time consuming.

If people want to make a thread where they cook up taunt ideas, by all means, as the dev team might be able to implement one or two of them, depending on complexity, but expecting more than 30 special taunts to fall out of the sky is silly.

 

[Pin Clock]

There was a thread up, but it got lost in the data restoration.

Feel free to make a new one!

 

[Valravn]

When you're fighting the character with the fastest movement, having to go up and jab the spring is actually pretty risky and time consuming, especially if you're a slower character. .

If you're far enough away that you have to 'go over' and hit it, you could just.... not go over to it?

In addition to a clank animation that causes additional lag, the spring is not always at a jab-able height [poor Kirby's jab probably can only hit it less than 50% of the time].

Other hitboxes work, jabbing is just a universally efficient example. There are plenty of hitboxes in Minus that can just ignore the thing entirely. Fox can just shine glide around the stage and reflect the darn thing. Ganon can kick through it. Ivysaur can throw a leaf at it.

 

[Neville]

I'm here to interrupt this discussion with a shameless plug for the community tier list I'm making since I figure this will reach the most people. https://forums.brawlminus.net/threads/4-0b-community-tier-list.838/

Come over and vote, and get your friends to vote and discuss.

 

[Thor]

If you're far enough away that you have to 'go over' and hit it, you could just.... not go over to it?


Other hitboxes work, jabbing is just a universally efficient example. There are plenty of hitboxes in Minus that can just ignore the thing entirely. Fox can just shine glide around the stage and reflect the darn thing. Ganon can kick through it. Ivysaur can throw a leaf at it.

Sonic can combo you into it if you leave it alone, similar to TL light arrows [fire arrows are not really useful for comboing and ice ones are questionable at best, while the spring is always useful for extending a combo, either with the pop-up or giving Sonic a tech chase]. Furthermore, if you don't clear it, it cuts off a LOT of stage [leaving it on the left side of FD, if you're at center stage, you have little room to retreat because the spring is in the way]. It provides a projectile useful for stage control to the fastest character in the game, and unlike waddle dees or arrows, it is there until cleared away [and rock smash doesn't do nearly as much to combo while not forcing a tech chase either].

 

[Valravn]

Yes, you can whack people into your spring to rack up damage. They won't die from it, and it requires Sonic to have already won neutral. It's not a projectile in any traditional sense, it's a stage hazard like Snake's mines. Or like Charizard's rocks, which can entirely coat a ledge, preventing sweetspots from both above and below.

I think making the spring disappear after a bounce or two makes the character less interesting without actually weakening him in a significant way.

 

[vanity.]

I'd rather have Sonic's spring last for only 10-20 seconds rather than forever, and even that might be a bit much. The spring lasting forever means you have to get rid of it at some point, which is by no means easy. We have already established that keep the spring on the stage is not in your best interest. And when it comes to Sonic, who can already move so quick and efficiently across the stage, it's often overwhelming if even just a tiny bit of the stage isn't safe. When we're talking about the spring, it takes up WAY more space than TL's arrows.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Since I'm having legitimate trouble putting these thoughts into words coherently, I'm just gonna blurt them out.

Each of these stage hazards accomplish different things, and not everyone can get something off of a successful trap outside of damage. Snake can flat out kill with his, Zard uses his for damage (and rock placement is random, don't forget), TL uses his for disruption and Sonic uses his to... Annoy. Only one character out of this batch has the ability to capitalize fully on keeping a section of the stage warded nigh-indefinitely. All traps should have timers on them, since borderline omnipotent stage control is bad design, no matter how you want to look at it. Setting something up and forcing your opponent to either get rid of it or get hit by it is just braindead, and takes out the actual skill that should be implemented in the move's use. There is no strategy behind leaving a trap and maybe using it eventually should the opponent decide to go after the player rather than the trap.

 

[Valravn]

Forward/back throwing someone into your spring so that you can down smash them isn't useless.

 

[Gold_TSG]

A single use that isn't likely to happen doesn't make it suddenly acceptable. Not to mention, no one said it was useless.

 

[Xentas]

The spring is a recovery/fool tool, it's not exactly meant to do what TL's arrows do, which is totally on stunning, recovery sucker punches, combo inducing/rewarding and spacing. I find that I can't keep the spring on the course for long enough to do much baiting, rather I just use them for combo starting, pissing off my opponent by keeping them out of reach. Changing the time it stays down (unless just purely nerfed to a form that keeps it out shorter then the Brawl version of sonic's springs), won't do much to change those things, 20 seconds is more then enough time to do the same strategy then with InfiniSprings. Hell, it won't change much of any strategy, Sonic's speed makes everything just a bit different. With 20 or even 10 seconds with the spring I could still throw in a free tech or a basic attack if someone wants to take the spring down before me (bad move), pretty much anything still applies.

 

[vanity.]

The spring only needs to stay on the stage long enough for Sonic to make use of it, which it will because it will never go away without clashing into another object. Pretty much the only time in which Sonic can't make use of it is when he's offstage or has lost a stock. If you're patient enough, you can open up your opponent real quickly with the spring, simply because it's such a dangerous object on the stage. With the spring being on the stage for less time, it pressures either Sonic to use it in that time frame, not use the spring in a combo but instead use it to apply pressure on the opponent, or just not putting the spring there in the first place. It can still be useful if it's there for 10-20 seconds, it's just not absurd. If 10-20 seconds is too much, you can change it to 5-10 seconds.

 

[Xentas]

Well, to be frank, I would be great with 10 or around, but to totally kill that side would be crappy. Sonic is about executing sly options, that's a part of his bag of tricks, reducing options makes Sonic much weaker. That's all. My post was noting my own observation about the springs and the arrows, their uses. It's free to any interpretation.