Brawl Minus 4.0b is here!

[Bent 00]

[...] if someone buffed it [maybe made it do 777% on turnaround or something], well that'd be cool.

Uhh... You know that would be exactly the same, functionally. >_>

Smash 4 WP for Minus. Faster attack, default power, full super armor. Now it's useful everywhere.

If it's fast enough (or can stall midair) to be non-suicidal offstage, that sounds pretty good to me.

Sacrifice the OHKO to become a more versatile, useful move.

 

[Xentas]

If nobody is willing to sacrifice the punch, there's still easily a way to alternate between the two.

Mario can become Metal Mario, after all, with just his side taunt.

 

[Bent 00]

I think there's only a few of us who insist on keeping the OHKO at the cost of WP being suicidal offstage.

Problem is, those few have essentially the final say on the official version, and they think of the OHKO as a Minus staple beyond reproach.

Why? Becuz it's so broken, lol! 666% damage! BRAKE DA LIMITS!

Spoiler: Relevant stuff that has been said before

I still say that -- in Custom builds -- at the very least, the 666% Warlock Punch should be replaced with a more useful, versatile Neutral B that better represents Ganondorf's character. Project M embraced the change, why can't we? Make the OHKO WP a secret taunt if it's so essential.

The Warlock Punch OHKO is above "Minus Staple", it's one something that defines what Minus is and thus not something that cannot be changed without fundamentally weakening the identity of the mod. So even if someone comes up with a Warlock Punch that's just all around admittedly better than a slow, unsafe OHKO we still wouldn't change things (and in case anyone is wondering, that's basically the only gameplay related thing that's not up for debate).

But now that we're trying to balance for a more competitive, less over-the-top metagame, it's a fine time to reconsider that stance (for Custom builds). What I said back then still applies...

...Of all the cool new moves the Minus Team has made, OHKO WP is the one you hold in highest regard? I know it's one of the oldest, but it's also one of the most simple, and the most extreme. As-is, WP "Breaks the Limits" in the most uncreative way possible:

"Let's take the most powerful move in the game and make it... even MORE powerful!"

[...] I recall a dev saying that you all want to make moves that are polished; high-quality; professionally made. Not moves that anyone can throw together in PSA by changing a few digits.

OHKO WP is not the move I'd say best represents Minus. Far from it. [...] Leaving it in its current, wildly impractical state just seems lazy to me.

Disclaimer: This post is not advocating for the official Minus Ganondorf to be changed in any way.
It is simply stating an opinion of the way things currently are, and proposing how a Custom build could improve them.

 

[Pin Clock]

"The Truth"

Actually, the one who's been vouching for the most Lucario nerfs as of late is Sammi himself, who's balancing him out even more than I expected.

 

[Xentas]

Really now? Nerf Lucario?

....Damn it. :/

 

[Pin Clock]

Really now? Nerf Lucario?

....Damn it.

It's much less nerf much more ironing out his few remaining issues. And fix Aura.

 

[Xentas]

I can live with that. I've been using his 3.3 MAX version on the 4.0b anyways.

Lucario is just a brokegasm. It would be a shame to see it go. Glad it's just touching up.

 

[Bent 00]

An "even crazier" ULTRATAUNT worries me. It's going to be crazy enough once Aura is added back in.

I remember when Lucario could not be knocked out of the ULTRATAUNT startup. Dark times...

 

[Pin Clock]

I remember when Lucario could not be knocked out of the ULTRATAUNT startup. Dark times...

No matter what ULTRATAUNT Minus has, the worst one will always be the one where he didn't have a limiter on when he could use it, so he's just use it every stock when he was about to die.

 

[Mawootad]

If nobody is willing to sacrifice the punch, there's still easily a way to alternate between the two.

Mario can become Metal Mario, after all, with just his side taunt.

So the unfortunate truth of the matter is that if you want a good neutral b on Dorf is gandouken because we largely do not want standard warlock punch to be a viable option. The move is cool and iconic, and we absolutely love it for that but gameplay wise it's frankly just kind of bad and has the exact same issues that it does in normal Brawl. That said, gandouken is actually pretty well designed and gives Dorf tools that he needs, so if Dorf needs improvements to his neutral b they will be there.

 

[ThatEpicMudkip]

I don't know if this is the right place (I'm new here), but can anyone help me find a tutorial to installing Brawl Minus with homebrew? Thanks, I appreciate it

 

[Mawootad]

I'm not entirely understanding what you're needing help with. If you're looking to install homebrew channel you're best of googling how to install homebrew channel. If you're just looking to run Minus using homebrew channel all you need to do is to extract the files in the Minus zip file onto your SD card (so that the private, codes, and apps folders are all on the root of your SD card) and then open up homebrew channel, run gecko, and start game.

 

[Xentas]

So the unfortunate truth of the matter is that if you want a good neutral b on Dorf is gandouken because we largely do not want standard warlock punch to be a viable option. The move is cool and iconic, and we absolutely love it for that but gameplay wise it's frankly just kind of bad and has the exact same issues that it does in normal Brawl. That said, gandouken is actually pretty well designed and gives Dorf tools that he needs, so if Dorf needs improvements to his neutral b they will be there.

I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice the punch for comp or (imcompatible) wifi play, if you guys want to kill the OHKO Warlock Punch off for something else, go nuts. It doesn't sound like that's happening though, it sounds like you're just telling me to use Gandouken more often, which is just another problem altogether.

 

[Mawootad]

You're misunderstanding me, I'm saying if you want to play at the absolutely highest competitive level you should warlock punch basically never unless you want to make the hardest of reads. In less serious play, by all means spam the hell out of it; landing a warlock punch feels amazing and that's great, but unfortunately there's really just no way to make a move that does 666% damage fun both casually and competitively. So if you want your competitive neutral-b that expands what dorf can do you have it, and if you want your epic, awesome neutral-b that's wacky and hilarious you also have it, but that also means that when we focus on competitive balancing there needs to be a damn good reason to touch warlock punch because it's extremely easy to make changes to the move that are worse for everyone.

 

[Xentas]

Are you talking about the energy charge version of the punch with the 14% damage that activates after a timed special-button press? It still has the laggy count of frames to activate, still making it a risky, near useless move. He still relies on a pretty vapid technique.

But I suppose it's just the predicament of Ganondorf. He's never been loved, he's never been given much practical competitive use in a mod or even Smash til the latest game. None of the super heavyweights have been, aside from Snake.

 

[Valravn]

(Side note: PM Ganondorf is a legitimate and powerful competitive character.)

You can warlock punch someone who has been pitfalled if they don't mash out in time, and sometimes even if they do. If you could reliably combo into the pitfall, you could reliably warlock punch people. It could be done with practice and swift reactions. You can usually use Gandouken to catch people recovering if they have a super predictable path like Falcon, Yoshi, etc. You can't use them as primary tools, but they are a little strong for that at the moment. They won't win you the neutral game, but once you've already done that they make for powerful finishers. If Ganon gets a little bit more love in the vein of Gerudo Dragon (fantastic combo move by the way, props to whoever made it!) he would be downright amazing. The game plan right now is to flail around in neutral until you get someone offstage and then present them with a choice of damnations. Gandouken if they come in high, Dair if they come from below, or reverse up-B from ledge if they go straight for it.

 

[Bent 00]

[...] when we focus on competitive balancing there needs to be a damn good reason to touch warlock punch because it's extremely easy to make changes to the move that are worse for everyone.

Here are two easy fixes I've suggested once before:

If you look closely, Gandouken doesn't line up perfectly with Ganondorf's arm. This is most noticeable in the aerial version.

A suggestion for an improvement to Warlock Punch: Make 'Dorf Invincible during the 2 frames the 666% damage hitbox is active.

Why? Because it's silly when a grab coincides with the Punch -- the victim takes the 666% damage, but lands the grab and isn't moved. Maybe the Gandouken should get those 2 Invincibility frames too.

I've attempted to fix these two issues myself in my latest version of [CENSORED].

There's absolutely no reason not to fix those two tiny issues.

Oh, and reversed aerial WP never got the on-hit Cancel it should have received. Might want to fix that too.

 

[Xentas]

Spoiler: controversial opinion?

I'm gonna agree with Bent here, on all his notes. Truly is no reason to keep it unless we all really hate Ganondorf as a competitive character, and I see a lot of people note far from it. I see that Link and TL are given all the LoZ series love and Ganondorf & Zelda (note Peach is now basically broken with all her advantageous cancels) are pushed away. Hell, Zelda has buffs that GANONDORF HAS NONE OF. He's a little faster? Can ground a character with two moves? I don't see much. Snake has been buffed to heck. Very noticeable.

If this game is becoming more kind and considerate to competitive players, why is it that not all characters can physically have moves that make them more able to be used competitively? Why is it that Lucario is broken as hell, Peach's shield is just a break-to-cancel machine and has all sorts of high speed moves, Bowser has stupid-designed armor to prevent a few combos, (i'm saying that nicely, it was designed by a genius), Yoshi and Sonic have great avoiding games (with added cancels and combo potential for Sonic, good space and air game for Yoshi), Link and TL are fluid, versatile swordsmen, let me go on (*spam Fox and Lucario AGAIN here*). There are so many things here that you'd think would ruin characters (but don't, or do in a good way that many miss on the next patch), but because changing warlock punch "could ruin Ganondorf", that risk can't be even taken? What the heck?

 

[Gold_TSG]

Dorf is fine for the most part, and can do fairly well in competitive play as long as he is played right. I main him in every game, and I was one of the best when I was part of Minus. I can tell you with legitimate experience that he has the tools to destroy every character in the roster, he just needs to work for it more than the higher tiers do, which makes him a challenging and fun character to play.

 

[Mawootad]

Here are two easy fixes I've suggested once before:

There's absolutely no reason not to fix those two tiny issues.

Oh, and reversed aerial WP never got the on-hit Cancel it should have received. Might want to fix that too.

Gandouken not lining up entirely with the arm is a little bit complex because aligning graphics and making sure hitboxes hit what they should and the like is fairly hard to get perfect. The lack of cancel on the aerial reversed punch is a known bug that will be fixed. The intangibility during the hit I think was something that was supposed to be implemented but hasn't been so far because of reasons I'm not sure of, so it's on our to do list as of now.

 

[Bent 00]

Gandouken not lining up entirely with the arm is a little bit complex because aligning graphics and making sure hitboxes hit what they should and the like is fairly hard to get perfect.

Adjusting the Y Offset seems to have fixed it, in my experience. Probably not the proper fix, but it works.

The lack of cancel on the aerial reversed punch is a known bug that will be fixed.

I tried to fix this too, but couldn't get it to work. Over my head.

The intangibility during the hit I think was something that was supposed to be implemented but hasn't been so far because of reasons I'm not sure of, so it's on our to do list as of now.

I added invincibility to those 2 active hitbox frames, works fine...

 

[Xentas]

I'd still rather choose Falcon for the fact alone that Falcon is of the tier he is and his clone is not... And the speed/lag of moves..... Similar to why I've never heard anyone really play Roy, though he's a lighter midweight instead, and Marth is a midweight (once a heavyweight a la Falcon). Falcon also has more combos and can finish a combo with an ultrataunt-charged Falcon Punch for (mostly) guaranteed ko's.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Dorf can annihilate Falcon with relative ease due to Falcon's predictable styles of play, and Dorf simply hits harder and has better reach, not to mention a command grab that basically scares everyone. The matchup really isn't that difficult for Dorf.

 

[Xentas]

Is it just me or do all Ganon mains find that with characters against Ganon? Sakurai designed a really special character in Ganon, in some ways. He's Sakurai's main, and you can tell how Sakurai thinks with how Ganon works.

I think Ganon is the abyss level 8 (you know, the end of the line in ability or learning curve) character of Smash, in some ways. Once you know everybody, you can understand Dorf. Some choose to take him on, others chose to go the Fox and niche high tier character route and deem him irrelevant. Not sure where I put him, I have my opinions on him and comparisons to other Minus character builds, but I find that a lot outside (and inside, apparently) Minus.

 

[Gold_TSG]

He has a high learning curve because he can't rush in or combo like other characters. You NEED to be patient, and you NEED to know how to read your opponent. He is that one character you can't just pick up and figure out in one session. You need to dedicate to mastering him in his entirety, and it helps develop yourself as a player.