Brawl Minus 4.0b is here!

[vanity.]

I'm complaining about it because the next version is supposed to be the final version. This is not the time to make seemingly superfluous changes. I don't think the character needs the nerf, as minor as it sounds.

I wasn't aware of 4.0 being the final version. Regardless, I want to tackle something else:

That was never my point of contention. My point is that it doesn't make sense to make useless changes for the sake of it. I would be saying the same thing if you were suggesting that every second Waddle Dee should be purple. The only thing this would remove is people saying 'what, the spring just bounces forever?' when they first see if, and replace it with 'what, the spring bounces for so long!', which is again not a significant change. It seems like an utter waste of time and effort.

"Every second Waddle Dee should be purple" is not a balance change, and thus does not qualify this for an adequate analogy. It's an aesthetics change. This is important because if you want to make the argument that the spring isn't as powerful as we're making it out to be, you need to compare it to something more reasonable, palpable, and akin to. There will never be a change to the color of the Waddle Dee, that is irrelevant and trivial. (as far as I know) I mean, unless you want to make a texture for that, which is your decision.

Regardless, I want gameplay to be more discussed if we're talking about balance issues, because we all have access to this game, correct? On maps as small as Lavander Town, the spring becomes especially problematic. For a stage that small, avoiding the spring is unbearable. Now, you can make the argument that you would never bring Sonic to that stage for that reason, however, HE can bring you to that stage if he wants. Now, there are platforms to avoid it, and that's why I think in this case, the timer on the spring should be reduced heavily. That gives a large portion of the cast better overall options to cope with it. Imagine a character like Kirby or Puff trying to deal with that, that's going to be hell for them to deal with. If it had a timer, they could be patient, jump around the spring, maybe get a few hits on Sonic, and then continue to fight him like normal. As it is, neither character has a real reliable way to remove it with it being eternal, and thus, should be changed accordingly.

Even if the spring was completely irrelevant to Sonic's moveset, even if it had no synergy with his playstyle, I still would not like the spring to have eternal life... if that makes sense. Even if the spring had no use at all in the game, and was one of the weakest moves, the fact that it will never go away without your or Sonic's consent makes the move absurd. Even if it isn't broken, the idea of it is absurd. A change like this may be irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but it will make other cast members fighting Sonic have a better chance. The fact that he is already a top tier character (to most, that is) leaves me to believe that this should be balanced accordingly. I don't think the rest of his moveset should be touched UNTIL the spring has a timer. Unless 4.0 is the final version after all, and then I may suggest looking at his moveset as a whole.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It brings a tear to my eye seeing that I'm not the only one who understands balance, no matter how small it is.

 

[Bent 00]

Beyond that, he can fly. And do whatever this is. Note that if Fox flies through a spring with a reflector out, it's his hitbox now. Forever. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that! (He can also do this with stealth rocks, arrows, icebergs, and more. )

Spoiler

Both of those techniques are ridiculous. Anyone else think they should be removed?

That second one (the tripping Fox Illusion) is especially janky, IMO.

*Remembers that it was featured in Fox's Minus Demo video, so it's staying in*

Urgh... Fox can do crap like that, and Ganondorf can't even have a you-know-what. Not fair.

EDIT: It's sad (but kinda funny) how taboo you-know-what is. Mention it, and Gold shows up instantly to threaten you

 

[Gold_TSG]

Bent, I am winding up my Warlock Pimp Slap, charged with the darkest of dark energies.

 

[Valravn]

"Every second Waddle Dee should be purple" is not a balance change, and thus does not qualify this for an adequate analogy. It's an aesthetics change.

I think that changing the duration of the spring is a change so superficial that it could be considered a cosmetic change. Thus the analogy. It would be an almost purely aesthetic change.

As far as I'm aware, Lavender town is only a not a starting stage. There are bans for a reason. No Melee Fox wants to play against Marth on FD. No PM Zelda wants to fight Ganondorf on Wario Land. Sometimes they do it anyway because they know how to adapt and are comfortable enough with the game and their character that they don't mind the disadvantage.

The fact that Puff can't deal with the spring as easily as other characters is an inevitability of having 41 unique characters. Kirby can pretty easily throw a hitbox at it though, and even Puff's aerials aren't that bad for getting it out of the way. If it's a massive problem, why not just give them tools? I'm no Minus Developer Guy, but I thought that the purpose of this mod was to give every character the tools to compete with one another and have fun doing it.

Both of those techniques are pretty ridiculous. Anyone else think they should be removed? That second one (the tripping Fox Illusion) is especially janky, IMO.

I wish other characters could do stuff as cool as this. Ganondorf should be able to do all the crazy shit he used to be able to do, because then he could deal with flying Foxes and apocalyptic 5% damage springs.

Bent, I am winding up my Warlock Pimp Slap, charged with the darkest of dark energies.

Dude, I can't even remember why you're so bent out of shape about the offstage warlock punch thing. It never seemed like a big deal to me. I might be losing touch with what balance means here. It feels like every time someone runs into a minor problem with a character, they want it nerfed instead of adapting or 'getting good' to deal with it. There's nothing inherently unfair in this game other than Pichu's infinites. There are no inescapable combos, and there are almost zero attacks that are safe and also unpredictable. No moves that are both safe and unpredictable can actually end a stock. If someone in my local play group were to complain about DK having so many meteors, we'd laugh about it and he'd just learn to not to jump offstage for no reason to get monkey dunked.

For the record, if I were to get warlock punched offstage, I would high-five whoever did it instead of getting salty and complaining about it on the forums. I don't know why it was removed in the first place, but I really hope it wasn't something that silly.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You and Bent seem so out of touch when it comes to a joke post that my sides are killing me from laughter right now.

 

[Valravn]

I hope their knives aren't as sharp as your wit.

Most of that paragraph wasn't even directed at your post. Perhaps I should have formatted it better, but it is meant to be a separate rant about how weird the community has been (in my opinion) with regard to balance changes in the last year.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I'm just disappointed that Bent went to edit his post just to sound like a victim, when I worded my post specifically not to be taken seriously.

Everyone has their own views on what's balanced and what isn't, so it's pretty hard to really pin anything down to what should and shouldn't be when the community is so split.

 

[Bent 00]

I'm just disappointed that Bent went to edit his post just to sound like a victim, when I worded my post specifically not to be taken seriously.

I can't tell what your tone is via text. Your post sounded like a legitimate ticked-off warning to me.

You say it was not to be taken seriously, but I know that if I went on much more about you-know-what, you'd be happy to ban me again. :/

 

[Gold_TSG]

I can't tell what your tone is via text. Your post sounded like a legitimate ticked-off warning to me.

You say it was not to be taken seriously, but I know that if I went on much more about you-know-what, you'd be happy to ban me again. :/

First, you've been around long enough to know when I'm being serious. When I am blunt, to the point, and tell you straight up that I'm warning you, then I'm being serious.
Second, I've never banned you, so that is just a poor assumption on your part. I've never even given you a warning for crying out loud. (By that, I mean those warning point things)

 

[Xentas]

Why doesn't Ganondorf get stupid-armor like Bowser? Idk but that would even the field at least a little. You could kill off the 666 punch entirely for something quicker and safer. It does really... Hinder his options.

 

[Neville]

Valravn , I honestly have no idea why you are arguing for spring to last an infinite amount of time. I had no idea anyone could take something so "superfluous" and drag it into a multi-page argument over the matter. I can't get why anyone would get so passionate over something so small. I'm unsubscribing to this thread until this shit stops because I'm tired of getting updates on something I, and most of the forums for that matter, couldn't give two shits about.

 

[Farkus]

Well then...

 

[Bent 00]

Why doesn't Ganondorf get stupid-armor like Bowser? Idk but that would even the field at least a little.

He was going to get 5-7% armor on Warlock Punch for 4.0b, but someone decided against it for some reason. ~_~

'Dorf has armor on (grounded) WP in Smash 4, and it's fine. You'd think it would be acceptable in Minus if it's in regular old Smash 4, but no...

Apparently making you-know-what even a tiny little bit better is a major NO, just because it's a (extremely unsafe) OHKO.

I've argued why that's nonsense before, but it didn't do any good.

 

[Neville]

He was going to get 5-7% armor on Warlock Punch for 4.0b, but someone decided against it for some reason. ~_~

'Dorf has armor on (grounded) WP in Smash 4, and it's fine. You'd think it would be acceptable in Minus if it's in regular old Smash 4, but no...

Apparently making you-know-what even a tiny little bit better is a major NO, just because it's a OHKO.

I've argued why that's nonsense before, but it didn't do any good.

Don't taze me, bro!

Bruh, you can mention Warlock Punch. Just not it being survivable offstage.

 

[Xentas]

He was going to get 5-7% armor on Warlock Punch for 4.0b, but someone decided against it for some reason. ~_~

'Dorf has armor on (grounded) WP in Smash 4, and it's fine. You'd think it would be acceptable in Minus if it's in regular old Smash 4, but no...

Apparently making you-know-what even a tiny little bit better is a major NO, just because it's a (extremely unsafe) OHKO.

I've argued why that's nonsense before, but it didn't do any good.

Dorf has that now? To be honest, I think he should just be able to cancel it, at the very least. It would give him options, something he lacks now. Why not give him an ultrataunt that makes it cancellable or the other thing, in the vein of Falcon? I mean, if Falcon can have his, Lucario's is GETTING CRAZIER, a light one for Ganon would be nothing much.

 

[Bent 00]

Dorf has that now? To be honest, I think he should just be able to cancel it, at the very least. It would give him options, something he lacks now. Why not give him an ultrataunt that makes it cancellable or the other thing, in the vein of Falcon?

If Gold didn't ban me all those times, then whoever did is going to come after you if you keep suggesting Warlock Punch buffs.

I agree with you (just check out my post history); 'Dorf needs help -- but watch out.

Spoiler

Seriously, one or two of the devs hates us talking about buffing 'Dorf's Neutral B. The only safe place to talk about that is the topic I made for Custom Ganondorf... But that means you can't suggest changes to official WP. Sad, but that's how it is; WP is not changing in any way officially, as long as the current devs are in charge. Talking about it on the official Minus subforums is asking for trouble.

I say this because around here, advocating buffs for 'Dorf's Neutral B is like mashing a big, red "PLEASE BAN ME" button. At least, that's been my experience! It has made me a very sad Minus fan.

Pretty much everything to say about it has already been said, anyway. So don't get banned for nothing.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I have my own opinions on Dorf, and they've been made public multiple times in the past. My opinions differ from the devs just like yours, but I'm not as passionate about mine.

 

[Xentas]

Chill. It's debate. This I thought was a good place for video game debate. I enjoy debate. I'm not sure why I'd get banned, nothing I'm saying is meant meanly or in a bad way or even much about.. The thing. Just Ganondorf ideas maybe, comparing to other characters and asking why not. I love the mod and will play it (my own way) regardless of the dev's vbrawl- decisions... With the .dat files from other versions of the mod. But maybe it will rub off.

Either way, Lucario has a lot of.. Privledge. What's up with that being all for him and the current S teirs? That's all I'm saying.

 

[Bent 00]

Either way, Lucario has a lot of.. Privledge. What's up with that being all for him and the current S teirs? That's all I'm saying.

Spoiler: The Truth

 

[Xentas]

So for his 3.3 build added on the 4.0b, basically get the opponent to about 55-95%, activate taunt, either use pre charged aura or a good combo, opponent done. His side b is an instakill, his grabs are as well.... In fact, everything is.

It's very risky, but beyond broken, and somewhat comparable to Warlock Punch in risk and power. Damaging him is the last thing you want to do, his taunt does more then most attacks ffs, of a nice note.

I don't want to irritate anyone, I just want to note that one.

 

[Neville]

If Gold didn't ban me all those times, then whoever did is going to come after you if you keep suggesting Warlock Punch buffs.

I agree with you (just check out my post history); 'Dorf needs help -- but watch out.

Spoiler

Seriously, one or two of the devs hates us talking about buffing 'Dorf's Neutral B. The only safe place to talk about that is the topic I made for Custom Ganondorf... But that means you can't suggest changes to official WP. Sad, but that's how it is; WP is not changing in any way officially, as long as the current devs are in charge. Talking about it on the official Minus subforums is asking for trouble.

I say this because around here, advocating buffs for 'Dorf's Neutral B is like mashing a big, red "PLEASE BAN ME" button. At least, that's been my experience! It has made me a very sad Minus fan.

Pretty much everything to say about it has already been said, anyway. So don't get banned for nothing.

The devs have no problem with Warlock Punch buff suggestions. You just brought up Safe Flying Warlock Punch, and linked to said thread in nearly every post you made. You essentially spammed the board with SFWP so often it was basically spam, which is a bannable offense. Honestly...

 

[Thor]

Valravn , I honestly have no idea why you are arguing for spring to last an infinite amount of time. I had no idea anyone could take something so "superfluous" and drag it into a multi-page argument over the matter. I can't get why anyone would get so passionate over something so small. I'm unsubscribing to this thread until this shit stops because I'm tired of getting updates on something I, and most of the forums for that matter, couldn't give two shits about.

My sig, and Falco's reflector. These things matter and show people care. There's a divergence of opinion and we can't really resolve it... we have to leave that one to the devs.

I'm all for buffing Warlock Punch... SOMEHOW. I like flying offstage with it because I find the concept hilarious and Minusy, others disagree. I'm not going to push for it more beyond that, but if someone buffed it [maybe made it do 777% on turnaround or something], well that'd be cool.

 

[Xentas]

I'm gonna say it again... Ultrataunt with buffed moveset. Like where he absorbs dark energy, basically.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Smash 4 WP for Minus. Faster attack, default power, full super armor. Now it's useful everywhere.