Brawl Minus 4.0b is here!

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Pin Clock, Sep 4, 2015.

  1. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    There are legitimate times to discuss warlock punch, such as with stuff like the intangibility frames while the hitbox is active, but now is not one of those times.

    On a different but related note, I would like to get some community feedback on gandouken. Right now the move looks absolutely amazing, but what do you guys think about it functionally? Amazing, awful, whatever, it seems like the opinions on it vary a fair bit and I'd like to find out why that is so that we can make the move even better.
     
  2. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    *facepalms so hard hand completely penetrates through skull and continues until said hand breaches the atmosphere and continues to fly through space for all eternity*
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  3. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    "Note by Pin: Replying to [Mawootad's post] to debate it will result in a warning."

    I did not reply to Mawootad's post, so I should not have been warned. I clarified my previous post, and asked a question that was not answered by Mawootad's post: "Is moving (not removing) OHKO WP off the table?" It still has not been answered, actually!

    I did not debate "getting rid of" OHKO Warlock Punch (which Pin warned against), I asked if anyone else would like to see it MOVED.

    REMOVING something and MOVING something are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

    Whatever! Pin dislikes me? Fine. But technically, my previous post didn't break any rules or go against any warnings.

    Now watch as Pin warns or bans me for this harmless post. :p If you see this when you visit my Profile, I'm banned.

    (suicidal offstage) OHKO Warlock Punch is the Sacred Cow of Brawl Minus.
     
    justadood likes this.
  4. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Seriously, Bent? Seriously?
     
  5. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    The Good
    - Gandouken looks good enough (except for how it doesn't line up with Ganondorf's arm). I don't think it looks "amazing".
    - It works as it's intended -- it's somewhat powerful, and gives 'Dorf some needed range. Gandouken is not too weak.

    The Bad
    - Gandouken is boring. It's just a big, slow projectile that knocks foes away from Ganondorf.
    - Gandouken makes Warlock Punch even less desirable to use. It takes as long to wind up, but doesn't leave 'Dorf as open for punishment.
    - It's a "fake" projectile; reflecting it will spin Ganondorf around too. The old Super Scope Gandouken, while an item, was at least a true projectile. It was also more representative of Ganondorf's canon abilities... But it was canned because it granted "free follow-ups" on-hit. I believe this could have been adjusted into a better move than the current Gandouken is, but I suppose it's too far gone at this point.

    Personal Opinions
    - The new Gandouken is decent, more balanced alternative to the old Super Scope 'Douken, but it's not nearly as much fun to use.
    - Ganondorf can't really follow it up with anything. A weaker projectile that allows a reliable follow-up would be preferable.
    - Gandouken is only semi-useful for edgeguarding, since it can't be angled and is suicidal offstage. It's too slow to be of much use anywhere else.
    - An Alternate Neutral B should not completely overshadow the Default Neutral B. Warlock Punch would need several buffs to be as viable.
    - A completely different Neutral B like Float/Cape that gives Ganondorf more movement options would be much better. 'Dorf is too slow.
    - Ganondorf needs better speed and movement options more than he needs longer range. Float/Cape or some kind of Warping move would be ideal.
     
  6. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Ok. This is the final straw to this issue once and for all.

    The Warlock Punch cancel that was originally in Minus was there as a means for Dorf to have a high risk, high reward option that he could bail out of if he wiffed it. At first, this was all well and good, until a larger issue was found. See, the original risk to the move was that if it were shielded, Dorf would fly off horizontally and die instantly, the cost to being able to kill instantly. The cancel was there for fun, until people found out you could prevent death by dodging during his flight while on stage. This was extremely abusable once practiced, since it allowed Dorf the ability to fully capitalize on a broken shield with no cost to him. As such, it was reworked into an unblockable attack that left him open to retaliation, as it should have been originally. There is also no sane reason why it needs to be safe to use while jumping off stage, because there are far superior options Dorf can use, and it is just not intended to work that way. (As a side note, it isn't that the move itself is flawed, it's that it's original function was removed due to the overwhelming safety in Minus in regards to landing and ending lag. With no laggy attacks, there is nothing to read for it)

    Bent has been on a personal crusade for a long period of time now trying to get that cancel (which was shut down) and safety (separate efforts, combined time. Mostly about off stage use) back on the punch, to which it was explained in clear, explicit detail over a dozen times from at least half the BR (myself included) why it won't return. He has been incredibly adamant and passionate about this idea with Dorf, but I feel like this issue will never, ever end. He has stated several times over the last year and a half or so how he has felt in regards to how Dorf's WP functions (as I have done the same, but to a lesser degree), but in a case last year, he was told to keep the WP discussion in its own thread elsewhere, as well as to not advertise his own edit of the WP in other threads, both of which were ignored despite warnings from the staff. This is the only reason that the staff wishes for this discussion to be left alone. Nobody wants this to be personal, and there is no hate towards any members, no matter how much some might wish to believe otherwise. Everyone, myself included, is tired of seeing this debate surface again and again. I've almost been barred from talking about my own main because it always triggers this debate, and this derails the discussion without fail.

    I was tasked with explaining this issue once and for all for everyone to see, so everyone can fully understand what has gone on, and continues to go on, when the staff request that this subject not be spoken about. There is nothing to debate here, and they ask politely that it be dropped and ignored in the future. They want to finish up the mod as quickly and as stress free as they can so everyone can fully enjoy the work they have put into it. My personal request is that everyone please respect their wishes.

    I am temporarily locking this thread until tomorrow so everyone can read this.
     
  7. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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  8. Mariosonicman1

    Mariosonicman1 Active Member

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    i really hope this arguement never gets brought up again... is it still ok if i talk about the gandoken tho? cause i have nice ideas for it
     
  9. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    Of course!
     
  10. Mariosonicman1

    Mariosonicman1 Active Member

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    well.... my ideas for the gandoken,
    i think it could come out a bit faster, like 1 second faster, kind of like his sword custom in smash 4, so that way you could possibly hit something before it jumps out of the way.
    if that doesnt work well, you could make it a shield breaker move, once it breaks a shield, you can go up and give em a nice and fresh OHKO punch,
    if we need something more odd, give him a slight floaty feel like how Ryus hadoken works in smash 4 or street fighter, where when he uses it in the air, he moves up for a bit, i think it could be a good mind game for landing if you still have a double jump left,
    or we could break him and go for all 3 XP. just kidding. but what do you think? any of my ideas could work?
     
  11. Valravn

    Valravn Active Member

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    I think the move is fine, though I think it'd be great if it did more shield damage. Not enough to instantly break the average shield, of course. If nothing else, it'll force many opponents up and over the gandouken if their shield is low enough, since spot dodging it is difficult or impossible for much of the cast. Minus Ganondorf has quite a few tools to use on people who are up and over him, so there's some synergy there even if there's no explicit combo.
     
  12. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Gandouken is useless. It's far too slow to ever be practical as anything other than the most obvious edgeguard ever, and one any competent player can avoid. [There may actually be niche uses in teams or something, but I haven't explored that myself.]

    It either needs to be faster, MUCH bigger, or replaced entirely.

    At this point, the only function of the move is "Oh, I accidentally hit B, I'll hold this on the chance my opponent is bad and whiffs or screws up in front of me to make me very slightly harder to punish."

    ALSO, question I asked a while ago [I think] that was never answered: Can we get an airdodge cancel in the first... 30? frames of aerial warlock punch startup? I've SDed before in lag due to trying to aerial side+b or down+b and getting a warlock punch, which is automatic RIP in the current build - adding this would mean if you screw up, you have a very brief moment to not automatically die [and airdodge is slow enough that there's no "mixup" potential either, you just... hopefully don't die].
     
    Bent 00 likes this.
  13. Mariosonicman1

    Mariosonicman1 Active Member

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    has anyone seen the latest salt from peoples reaction to the direct? goodness im annoyed a bit from it.
    personally i really love what i saw. cant wait to play em.
     
  14. Darxmarx

    Darxmarx The Learning Star Warrior

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    I usually have a pretty terrible sense of balance, but would it be okay if the Gandouken could be angled, kinda like ROB's lasers or Zelda's side tilt? It could be possibly helpful as a way to hit opponents falling near the blast line or something idk
    I love the Gandouken simply because it looks like grape soda is being launched from the depths of hell.
    I don't mean to get this thread off-topic, but what/why exactly were people salty? I haven't been to active when it comes to the smash scene recently. Maybe I just love Bayonetta and FE too much.
     
    justadood likes this.
  15. Momurderer

    Momurderer Bazooka Koopa

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    Related to Gandouken

    It would be nice if it came out faster. Maybe Ganon could flash or give some type of visual indication that a Gandouken is ready and then it can be launched at any point before the Warlock Punch comes out giving the move a little timing variation for the player as well. Maybe nerf the damage or whatever to compensate for a faster move. It does visually look good right now.
     
  16. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Making Gandouken able to be angled sounds fair to me.

    Unfortunately, it can't be made to come out faster as-is, without speeding up Warlock Punch as well... which isn't going to fly (pun intended).

    I thought up some ideas for tweaks to Ganondorf's Neutral B, but I get the feeling I should not post them here.

    Look in the Custom Warlock Punch topic if you're interested.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  17. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    "grape soda is being launched from the depths of hell"

    Thank you Darxmarx.
     
    justadood likes this.
  18. Xentas

    Xentas Some Minus Fan Who Likes Criticism

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    I made this thread into an argument landslide, I apologize....

    Also I agree. Gandouken looks cool. If it was ever made into a giant ball of shadow like old gandouken (it was fire, I thought)..... That would also be cool. But pretty cool nonetheless. I like the tether quality to it.
     
  19. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Just wanted to say that I tested this a bit more a few days ago -- specifically, I tried to "buffer a grab out of shield + attack."

    I Jabbed twice, then tried pressing R+A at different timings afterward. They all resulted in Rapid Jab or a Grab that comes out too late.

    As far as I can tell, it's no longer possible to Jab>Jab>Grab quickly enough to actually land the Grab before your opponent can act.

    Try it against a quick Level 9 CPU AI, like Luigi. After Jabbing him twice, he can hit you or get away before you can Grab him.

    "AAA should always trigger Gentleman, AAZ should always perform Jab>Jab>Grab, and Rapid Jab should trigger Smash 4 style, or via AAB."
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  20. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    It might be a better way to differentiate the two, yeah. That said you should be able to buffer a shield out of jab and then grab once the shield comes out.
     
  21. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    I tried that, it doesn't work. After two Jabs, the earliest possible Grab you can do comes out too late to Grab the opponent before he can act.

    If Rapid Jab were mapped to AAB or Smash 4 Style, Falcon could still Jab>Jab>Grab properly without worrying about triggering Rapid Jab unintentionally.
     
  22. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    If it's impossible to buffer a grab out of it by going into a shield first and then going into a grab it wont be possible to perform jab jab grab anyway. Doing jab jab shield grab is exactly 1 frame slower than jab jab grab would be if you could buffer it when performed correctly, so if performing a shield grab doesn't work then changing the input wont help.
     
  23. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Just try it yourself, you'll see what I mean.

    I could Jab>Jab>Grab just fine before Rapid Jab was set to Z/R+A. My opponent did not have enough time to interrupt or escape if he was right beside me. Now, because I have to wait a few frames before pressing that third A (so that I don't trigger Rapid Jab), my opponent usually interrupts or gets away.

    I'm not sure of the frame details, but those shouldn't matter anyway. Rapid Jab needs to be moved to another input.
     
  24. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    Bent, you know you an cancel jab strings by crouching right? That's how people do Jab1>Jab2>Jab1>Jab2>Jab3 with Ike.
     
  25. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    So after doing some testing with Minus and vBrawl open at the same time using the same controller inputs I have found that the timings for jab jab grab in Minus and vBrawl are exactly the same. If you press too early in either game you get a rapid jab (although in vBrawl you also get a gentleman to start things off), and if you press at the correct time you get a grab. This is the same as literally 100% of 2+ part jabs in Minus/Brawl, if you press z (or r+a) too early you get another jab, if you press it after enough time has passed you get a grab. I suspect that's also the case in Smash 4 but I'm too lazy to test.
     

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