Brawl Minus 4.0b is here!

[Bent 00]

I must not be explaining the problem right... How about this?

See that tiny "(Z) Grab Success" window under "Bad Design"? There's no reason for it to be that small, when it can share a window with "Tap (A) Gentleman" and "(B)/Hold (A) Rapid Jab", as seen under "Good Design".

Thanks to Buffer, Jab>Jab>Successful Grab used to be easy for me, before Rapid Jab was set to Z. I could just tap A>A>Z, without worrying about timing Z perfectly. If I try that now, I get the unwanted Jab>Jab>Rapid Jab, when I wanted to Jab>Jab>Grab. If I try waiting a few frames before pressing Z (to avoid using Rapid Jab), I Grab too late; my opponent has enough time to interrupt or escape.

Does that make my problem with Rapid Jab being set to Z more clear?

 

[Mawootad]

The difference you're talking about has nothing to do with the inputs though. You could jab jab grab successfully because the knockback of jab jab was different. You cannot buffer a grab out of jab for literally any multiple part jab. If you want to understand pick Mario and try to jab jab grab, it's the same thing.

 

[Thor]

Jab jab grab can be SDI'd out of... it's possible your play group has improved enough to where they've started doing that [consciously or not], which may be part of the problem.

 

[Neville]

Jab jab grab can be SDI'd out of... it's possible your play group has improved enough to where they've started doing that [consciously or not], which may be part of the problem.

I've gotten my SDI gmae to the point where I can SDI behind Falcon 95% of the time.

 

[Xentas]

Off topic to this whole discussion about something totally designed for another game's set of mechanics, why doesn't Bent design this himself? He re-modded the OHKO Punch half decent, not sure why he can't make this one either...?

 

[Mariosonicman1]

are you asking design the whole game himself? or design on things hes talking about?

 

[Xentas]

are you asking design the whole game himself? or design on things hes talking about?

A whole redesign would be a task not worthy of one man alone. However, a good and rounded edit of Falcon's .fit file in PSA (or whatever other programs that are available now, there are more programs with more code application required I thought) can change Captain Falcon to fit his desired CF build, which would have a friendlier (but much more stupid and broken) A button combo technique.

I'd be interested in seeing what Bent would do if he made his own Brawl mod (minus as inspiration or not). He mostly asks for changes that were applied to Smash 4 already though, so.

 

[Bent 00]

A whole redesign would be a task not worthy of one man alone. However, a good and rounded edit of Falcon's .fit file in PSA (or whatever other programs that are available now, there are more programs with more code application required I thought) can change Captain Falcon to fit his desired CF build, which would have a friendlier (but much more stupid and broken) A button combo technique.

I do plan to attempt removing Rapid Jab from Z, and attaching it to B and/or (mashed) A at some point.

Regardless of whether or not the 0.25 -> 0.725 KBM increase in 3.Q is to blame for Falcon's opponent being able to escape from point-blank Jab>Jab>Grab, I believe that having Rapid Jab on Z is overcrowding A/Z/R+A/Grab. Moving Rapid Jab to B and/or (mashed) A seems like the best option to me.

Each set of button presses should be able to be executed in rapid succession, without having to pause mid-string to get an alternate move from the same combo of button presses.

Work in Progress Setup:

(tap) A > (tap) A > (tap) A = Jab, Jab, Gentleman
(tap) A > (tap) A > (tap) A > A = Jab, Jab, Gentleman, Rapid Jab (would this be useful at all?)
(tap) A > (tap) A > Z/R+A = Jab, Jab, Grab

(hold) A = Jab, Jab, Gentleman (Smash 4 style)
(mash) A = Jab, Jab, Rapid Jab (Smash 4 style) (I do not know how to PSA this)
(tap) A > (tap) A > B = Jab, Jab, Rapid Jab

At each ">", check to see if (A) is being held.
If it is, and the next step is also triggered by (A), proceed to that step automatically.
If it is not, the next step is not performed automatically, and will only be triggered by a specific input.

I'd be interested in seeing what Bent would do if he made his own Brawl mod (minus as inspiration or not). He mostly asks for changes that were applied to Smash 4 already though, so.

I appreciate your interest, but I'm afraid I am not much of a developer at all! I've only managed to tweak a few very minor things.

I like most of the official changes in Minus, anyway. There's only a few things that disappoint me.

Spoiler: Mainly...

- ██████████████████████████████████
- Exceedingly silly and/or overpowered stuff
- Wasted potential "just because"
- 4.0b gravity

 

[Mawootad]

I think you'll find that unless you make falcon's grab function differently than every other grab aaz will still give you jab jab jab when performed even one frame too early.

 

[Bent 00]

I think you'll find that unless you make falcon's grab function differently than every other grab aaz will still give you jab jab jab when performed even one frame too early.

You're right. I compared Falcon in 3.5, 4.0b, and vBrawl -- and that pause has been there since the beginning. I must have forgotten about it (I took a long break from Minus between 3.Q and 4.0). My mistake, sorry!

I still prefer 3.5 Falcon's AAZ setup, though. I like to Jab>Jab>Grab, and if I pressed Z too early back in 3.5, I just did Gentleman instead of Grab; no big deal. Good move, low endlag, doesn't put me in an awkward position. Rapid Jab, on the other hand, is annoying when I do it by accident -- not a good move, and it leaves Falcon open, with his foe right beside him.

Is it just me, or is Rapid Jab really just not very useful? I never use it on purpose, unless I can pin my opponent against a wall with it.

I get that you wanted to include Rapid Jab somehow, but could you possibly put it somewhere where it won't be triggered accidentally?

Would it be possible to make it so that AAZ always does Jab>Jab>Grab, without having to time the Z button press? Would such an option benefit any other characters?

 

[Mariosonicman1]

i feel like all rapid jabs are useless since they dont have that end knockback like smash 4 introduced. unless they wanted to find someway to make those jabs broken or give them each a finishing move, they may just have to be they way they are.

 

[Mawootad]

Yeah, rapid jabs are pretty awful for the most part. There's a couple that are okay, but I don't know if Falcon would actually be worse off if he just couldn't rapid jab.

 

[Neville]

Make Falcon jab3 grab cancelable. OP but done.

 

[Xentas]

i feel like all rapid jabs are useless since they dont have that end knockback like smash 4 introduced. unless they wanted to find someway to make those jabs broken or give them each a finishing move, they may just have to be they way they are.

Make Falcon jab3 grab cancelable. OP but done.

These are both good ideas. The former more then the latter, for nothing more then how the latter might affect comp play or play under lag. Maybe both, for extra challenge?

 

[Neville]

It might be possible to make the first couple frames of gentleman grab cancelable if it's really something Falcon needs but I honestly think he doesn't.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Giving him an actual guaranteed grab sounds terrible IMO

 

[Xentas]

There's already no use in grabs with him anyway, at least mostly. My idea extended to Rapid Jab getting better too though. Fox has a something near a guaranteed grab.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Fox is already stupid, and they are totally different characters. Falcon has good throws, and his sliding grab is exceptional for positioning. What in the world are you smoking to think Falcon has no use in grabs, and where can I buy some?

 

[Mariosonicman1]

i hear they sell em at melee conventions, $100 a piece.

 

[Thor]

I personally can't get Falcon's throws to combo into anything. Bthrow is fine if you wanna pretend to be Sheik [sort of], but that doesn't strike me as interesting or interactive. Fthrow is for positioning and can kill or combo on bad DI/high percents, uthrow is trash [the move literally doesn't combo vs some people, like Luigi, he just nairs you for trying], and unless there's a dash cancel on dthrow I'm missing, it doesn't combo into knee currently, and it probably doesn't combo into uair or nair [VERY tight timing if it does], while Falcon Kick and Raptor Boost are too slow as well [can tech-chase with them sort of]. If someone wants to show me Falcon's throws comboing even on good DI [down and away], by all means, but the only throw combo I can get is fthrow -> something on really premature survival DI.

But Falcon's throws are useful positionally, not for comboing, at least against people I've seen [again, I might experiment more with bthrow tech chase, which is really silly on a variety of levels anyway... although IDK what his advantage on bthrow is so that might not work]. Dthrow worked ok in the old gravity but the new gravity just messed it up and it doesn't function to do much anymore.

Falcon's rapid jab is useful on shield as opposed to the gentleman because it's nigh-lagless (or seems that way on Wi-Fi lol) and very difficult to shieldgrab - I'll often do rapid jab on shield -> jab1 again to stuff OoS options. Gentleman on shield is definitely punishable, and having rapid jab skip gentleman can help that, but it doesn't need to be AAZ.

 

[Pin Clock]

As promised, the improved Netplay build is here!

Get it here!

 

[Baby_Sneak]

no more game mechanic changes.

let the game harden and develop into its own. let us get used to it.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Could we be informed on current progress on the final update? It's been about 10 months since the release of 4.0B, I'm assuming it's going to be some "one-year anniversary" finale of some sort at this rate.

 

[Neville]

Could we be informed on current progress on the final update? It's been about 10 months since the release of 4.0B, I'm assuming it's going to be some "one-year anniversary" finale of some sort at this rate.

Join the discord!!!! I don't feel like linking it but it's on Smashcords. Pin Clock has said multiple times it's coming out "soon". Pin can elaborate more on that if he so wishes (ie the game needs more polish, top secret things aren't fully implemented etc) but getting a Discord is probably your fastest way to get a dev's attention.

 

[Pin Clock]

More polish and some things like certain costumes and my artwork aren't finished. We also have a few TOP SECRETs left here and there.