Brawl Minus 4.0b is here!

[Bent 00]

Can we revisit this? I don't recall getting any solid feedback regarding it:

Some things [about Captain Falcon] I'd like to see addressed are...

A.) The Side Taunt Cancel being moved from frame 99 to 90, and
B.) Should Falcon's horizontal momentum halt (or just be reduced) at the end of aerial Raptor Boost?

Spoiler: Explanation with crude diagrams

Currently, aerial Raptor Boost momentum is like...

->->->-\
..............\
................\

I'm thinking Falcon's recovery may benefit if it was more like...

->->->-\
.............|
.............|

Because the way it is now, Falcon occasionally gets carried too far under the stage when he's trying to recover horizontally with Raptor Boost, like this:
................_____
->->->-\...\_
..............\..|\.\__
................\|..\......
..................|\./.....
.................V........

Raptor Boost Trajectory
Falcon Dive Trajectory

With less momentum, it could work better, like this:

...............¢_____
->->->-\...\_
.............|.../..\__
.............|./...........
.............||.............

Raptor Boost Trajectory
Falcon Dive Trajectory
Ledge Snap -> Ledge Grab

Anyone else think it's worth experimenting with? IIRC, Smash 4's aerial Raptor Boost trajectory is very similar to what I'm proposing (except it puts Falcon into Special Fall).

Alternately, this minor problem could be fixed by simply allowing aerial Raptor Boost to be interrupted earlier.

[Other] lingering issues...

C.) Falcon Punch could link into the final hit better.
D.) By the time Falcon can do Jab > Jab > Grab without triggering Rapid Jab, the foe can interrupt or escape.

Was moving the Rapid Jab to Z really the best idea? I used to Jab > Jab > Grab (Z) a lot, but now that usually ends up in a Rapid Jab, when I would have preferred a grab. Perhaps the Rapid Jab window could be pushed back a few frames? Personally, I rarely triggered Rapid Jab by accident back when it wasn't confined to Z.

Mainly, the parts about Raptor Boost and Rapid Jab. And maybe this, too?

- Possible 64 Up Smash? Falcon does need a good OoS move. Either that or the return of the vBrawl-size hitbox; current Up Smash is lacking.
- I still feel like Flaming Taunt should have some [Minusy quirk added to it].

 

[Mawootad]

Can we revisit this? I don't recall getting any solid feedback regarding it:

Some things [about Captain Falcon] I'd like to see addressed are...

A.) The Side Taunt Cancel being moved from frame 99 to 90, and
B.) Should Falcon's horizontal momentum halt (or just be reduced) at the end of aerial Raptor Boost?
C.) Falcon Punch could link into the final hit better.
D.) By the time Falcon can do Jab > Jab > Grab without triggering Rapid Jab, the foe can interrupt or escape.
Mainly, the parts about Raptor Boost and Rapid Jab. And maybe this, too?

A) Seems super minor, so it would depend on where frame 90 comes in the animation.
B) It does affect his recovery when recovering low, but it improves his recovery when recovering high plus stopping would also probably feel kind of weird
C) Multi-hit moves have weird issues that can't entirely be resolved solely due to Brawl's mechanics, although I might do some testing
D) Easy to fix but also a fairly massive buff to his jab, so requires balance review

 

[Bent 00]

A) Seems super minor, so it would depend on where frame 90 comes in the animation.

I believe Frame 90 is the moment Falcon's hand stops moving. Makes more sense (to me) to have the Cancel there instead of Frame 99.

D) Easy to fix but also a fairly massive buff to his jab, so requires balance review

Uhh, Jab>Jab>Grab was a key part of Falcon's moveset in vBrawl. Not OP at all. >_>

It was only changed to the way it is now to keep players from triggering Rapid Jab when they wanted to do Falcon's AAA Combo.

Unfortunately, the problem wasn't fixed, just attached to another technique. It obstructs Jab>Jab>Grab now, instead of the AAA Combo.

Perhaps making Rapid Jab trigger on A>A>B instead of A>A>Z would be better? Who ever uses Jab>Jab>Falcon Punch?

Does anyone have any issue with how reversed Falcon Punch slides forward post-Punch more than the non-reversed version does?

Anyone else think Falcon's Up Smash needs help? I'm thinking we should try swapping it with a 64-style Up Smash, or just make the Double Kick's hitbox slightly bigger -- not as big as it used to be, but it's too small now. It can't "catch" opponents as well as it should when executed out of a Dash.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You can still buffer a grab out of shield + attack...

 

[Bent 00]

You can still buffer a grab out of shield + attack...

I didn't have any luck with that when I tested it a while back.

Even if I did, there's no excuse for the easier way of executing Jab>Jab>Grab being obscured by Rapid Jab.

If I pressed Z too early, I'd do the Rapid Jab, and if I delayed pressing Z, my opponent would get too far away for me to land the Grab.

There shouldn't be a "timing game" aspect to it IMO. Why not make it like it is in Smash 4 instead?

"in Smash 4, one can simply hold the A button to get the Gentleman out of the jab combo; in fact, the rapid jabs and Gentleman act as different, completely separate enders to Captain Falcon's jab combo, as mashing the A button through the combo simply skips the Gentleman altogether (this is also the only way to get the rapid jabs, since they do not activate on whiff unlike the Gentleman)."

AAA should always trigger Gentleman, AAZ should always perform Jab>Jab>Grab, and Rapid Jab should trigger Smash 4 style, or via AAB.

 

[Thor]

Honestly, I can't figure out the point of grabbing with Falcon. Maybe I just have to really grind it, but uthrow seems to have zero advantage, to where it seems my only option is shiled after it [I can't seem to get a uair to connect, and most can DI to avoid jabs], and dthrow doesn't seem to combo into anything either [although I haven't tested Falcon Kick and Raptor Boost, which occurred to me as I type this post, although Raptor Boost itself does almost nothing hit either except offer positional advantage]. Fthrow is a positional throw and bthrow... doesn't even make sense.

Like sure, it beats shield and is free damage, but grabbing as Falcon now just seems... pointless.

 

[Valravn]

d-throw combos into Dair on a lot of characters at most percent. Dair combos into knee. D-throw also can combo into knee. At low percent. up throw can combo into knee. Forward throw can catch people unawares and let you knee them. If you back throw someone, they might die from the surprise.

RE: Ganondorf: he is the sort of character where making the wrong decision at any given point can lose you a stock. A Ganondorf that blunders into his opponent will lose. A Ganondorf that never dies at 30% because he wasted his double jump can be a menace. If you move carefully and keep a watchful eye for your opponent's mistakes, you can turn their tiniest mistakes into 50% of damage or worse. He's a very high-risk high reward character, but you benefit greatly from playing very safe. Most opponents will crack eventually, so long as you maintain an iron vigil.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Turning a mistake into any % above 30 in any version of the game, to say the least, is far from low reward. Dorf's weak hit at the end of his uair in smash 4 can open up combos off platforms by making characters slide off into inescapable tumble, it can cause jab reset to open a free hit or grab, and it can force characters to slide off the ledge, giving them very few options, since uair autocancels. Minus isn't much different, in that when he capitalizes on your mistake, you will feel it the next morning. Any good Dorf will make you painfully regret any mistake you make. There are a lot of people out there that fear skilled Dorf players, cause if they don't play smart and respect his space, they will lose that stock before they realize what happened.

 

[Xentas]

Bowser is about the same way, except he has... stupid...armor. I love it so, but it's.... Stupid. Fucking stupid, mind the cuss, this is a given. So stupid it's genius, all he needs now is PM Koopa Claw and F***ING EXPLOSIVE (I'm sorry every time I use it that comes to mind) Fsmash and he'd be...Even more perfect.

I never grabbed much as Falcon, same as Ganon. Falcon only needs to dancedodge and use up throw on a good opening, it's just "the point is...? Falcon Punch finisher combos are much more useful".

To be honest, it seems Snake is the best heavyweight in Brawl, and that has never really changed. The others are a different game and person. I am fond of heavyweights, Bowser and Ganon were my smash 4 mains. Minus heavyweights are a similar game. But... Wackier.

 

[Valravn]

Turning a mistake into any % above 30 in any version of the game, to say the least, is far from low reward.

At first I was confused, and then I realized I mis-wrote. I meant high risk high reward.

Fun Bowser trick: Aerial Royal Rampage combos into down-B, and then you can chase people around by alternating those unless they're a very short character. (Fox, Squirtle, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Olimar.)

 

[Xentas]

Those are all of his weaknesses (in character), ironically.

I prefer using grab combos with less of that predicable thing.... Thing is, like PK Fire and Ness, it's a big part of his thing. It's gotta be used right. Same with his side special.. Maybe be able to cancel into it from neutral special but be a little laggier (hence Koopa Claw idea) for something a little better? (like Ganon, I think he needs a little changed)

With his current powers though, Fspecial to Fsmash, to u-air as many times as can milked to another royal rampage with upthrow, is pretty much a KO, Royal Rampage uthrow to galactic crusher to uair does 40 or 50% damage.

 

[Thor]

d-throw combos into Dair on a lot of characters at most percent. Dair combos into knee. D-throw also can combo into knee. At low percent. up throw can combo into knee. Forward throw can catch people unawares and let you knee them. If you back throw someone, they might die from the surprise.

RE: Ganondorf: he is the sort of character where making the wrong decision at any given point can lose you a stock. A Ganondorf that blunders into his opponent will lose. A Ganondorf that never dies at 30% because he wasted his double jump can be a menace. If you move carefully and keep a watchful eye for your opponent's mistakes, you can turn their tiniest mistakes into 50% of damage or worse. He's a very high-risk high reward character, but you benefit greatly from playing very safe. Most opponents will crack eventually, so long as you maintain an iron vigil.

A) I can't get dthrow to combo into knee... not sure what's going on there [timing/spacing is definitely influenced by DI, not sure if good DI makes this not work].

B) You can tech dair or tech to not get hit by dair, so dthrow -> dair -> knee just doesn't work.

C) I can't get uthrow to combo at 3% or 300%. I just get nair'd by my opponent [or they jump away]. Is there a hidden jump cancel on this move I'm missing?

D) I've done fthrow to knee on bad DI, but that's definitely not reliable.

E) Bthrow is quite easy to meteor cancel, and the positioning where it will actually kill someone offstage is so painfully obvious that no one who knows what Falcon's throws do will die to this, unless they are just plain awful at meteor cancelling.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

I may be a bit late on the Sonic Spring convo, but I have a friend that uses Sonic's spring pretty well. He generally uses it to help him get spikes on opponents offstage. I say this to argue that it is useful as more than just a recovery.

 

[Valravn]

It's only a meteor, fortunately. You can tap jump or up-B immediately and it won't do too much unless you're already very deep. It's pretty handy for controlling movement offstage though. A standard tool for me is Boost offstage, chuck a spring at them, then Dair to ledge to try to get them as they try to sweetspot the ledge. (If they're a character that tries for that.)

 

[Pin Clock]

It's here! The official netplay build of 4.0b is finally released!

Get it here!

 

[Mariosonicman1]

do we add this along with our current SD? or do we have to remove all the files again?

 

[Pin Clock]

do we add this along with our current SD? or do we have to remove all the files again?

Netplay is for PCs.

 

[Mariosonicman1]

oh..... well then....

 

[Mawootad]

So basically Dolphin netplay uses Dolphin emulator to play online as opposed to using Wii WiFi servers. The main pro of Dolphin online play is lower lag, but it requires a decently powerful pc and is prone to annoying to debug desyncs (as slight changes in Dolphin settings will render the game partially unplayable).

 

[Bent 00]

Who else would be in favor of tucking away OHKO Warlock Punch as a hidden, taunt-switched move, replacing Ganondorf's default Neutral B with something much more useful? Like Float, Cape, Energy Ball, a sword move, or something else from 'Dorf's varied repertoire?

There are so many possible replacements that would be major improvements, many of which have already been animated and PSA'd.

The devs want to keep (suicidal offstage) OHKO Warlock Punch in since it's been around so long, but I don't see why it has to take up such valuable "real estate". Every other character's Neutral B is very useful, isn't it? The King of Evil shouldn't be burdened with a Neutral Special that should "basically never" be used in high-level play. Link's OHKO is a secret taunt, so I say we should make OHKO Warlock Punch one too.

(if this ticks off any devs or mods, just delete it...)

 

[Mawootad]

We're not getting rid of ohko warlock punch, end of discussion.

Note by Pin: Replying to this post to debate it will result in a warning.

 

[Thor]

We're not getting rid of ohko warlock punch, end of discussion.

Note by Pin: Replying to this post to debate it will result in a warning.

Warn me! : P

 

[Thor]

Juvenille posting aside [gonna assume the former post will be deleted], I get the OHKO isn't going anywhere, but can we at least tweak his other specials? Maybe making gerudo dragon on side+B instead of dash attack somehow? I have armored through things with Gerudo dragon by using the armor period before it loses armor, which is against the specified point [unless that's a feature, not a bug, then... cool!]

 

[Gold_TSG]

Warn me! : P

Spoiler

 

[Bent 00]

Just to be clear, I was not suggesting that we remove (suicidal offstage) OHKO Warlock Punch.

I was asking if anyone else supported the idea of moving it to somewhere else in 'Dorf's moveset, kind of like how Project M replaced WP with Float/Cape, made F-Smash into a similar Punch, and added the gooberdoober clooberdoober onto Down Taunt. The changes to his Neutral B alone made 'Dorf a much more fun and viable character in Project M.

The (suicidal offstage) OHKO WP could be left exactly as-is functionally, just ported somewhere else so that Ganondorf could have a Neutral B that is actually useful for a change.

Disclaimer:
This post is not a reply to mawootad's post, which Pin warned not to reply to. It's a clarification of my last post.

I guess it's safe to reply to my posts about this, just not mawootad's...? Otherwise, Pin would have added that warning onto my post.

Is "moving (not removing) the OHKO WP to a different spot in 'Dorf's moveset" off the table, devs?

...

...Why do I even ask? If WP is absolutely never going to be changed in any way officially, then you should just go ahead and ban discussion of changing it outside of the Custom Mods subforum. The topic keeps popping up in official subforums, but it doesn't do any good. It only disappoints Ganondorf fans who are clearly unhappy with the move as-is, and annoys the devs who think (suicidal offstage) OHKO WP is sacrosanct for personal reasons.

Seeing this topic repeatedly revive itself, only to get shut down, saddens me.

USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST