Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Haha wow, Kien. Maybe your gigantic rant and endless theorycrafting would carry some actual weight if you had the skill to back it up. Sorry, testing out the power of moves against standing CPUs on FD isn't good enough.

You're always whining about Glyph not understanding balance, or Glyph wanting to play favorites with ROB, or whatever. Talk about projection. Buffing Link? You're overloading my BS detector. It's emitting smoke, and little springs are popping out. You are so jealous of him it's nauseating, and frankly, you should be. He's on another level, both competitively, and understanding character design. Are you going to hate on me behind my back too if start playing too well or disagreeing too much?

You claim to want to work with and help the community, but in reality, you only seek vindication for your self-serving designs. That's all there is to it.

Jealousy and theory crafting? So, me complaining about blatant S tier character means I'm jealous? I don't even know who brought Glyph into this conversation, are you trying to call for backup or something? I realize now that you're a prick and that's fine, but how about you just let me know when you can get online and watch me beat you. I imagine your BS detector never stops going off because you''re becoming more and more of an uppity shithead the longer you go on with this stupid "debate." If you can find out where jealousy comes in to my side of the conversation let me know. Last I remember, Glyph and I were planning on working together on his mod. I don't think jealousy is something I can feel and what the flying fuck do you even mean that I seek vindication for my "self-serving" designs? Really?

Let's talk about character design. What makes a character work? What makes a character good? What makes a character bad? Do you even know what that means? I don't think you do, but somehow you seem to know that someone knows more than I do without ever asking me what I know. So let me break it down a bit for you so you can know what it takes to code a character into Minus.

We develop a core of the character, what they're centered around. We give them a few strengths and weaknesses intentionally at a base level. We don't want any characters who are good at everything because those characters become S tier and unbeatable in most matchups. So on a core level you should know right offhand, what a character's playstyle revolves around, what they're good against and how to defeat them. Will they be a heavy hitter with a focus on strong laggy moves or a combo monster who deals low damage and relies on specific finishers to KO? Maybe they're a blend of both? If so, how do you bring them down? What makes this character beatable, and how do you excel with them if you decide to play as them? Just having a core is obviously not enough though, you have to make the character's core something that can function properly against other characters without being seen as unfair or unfun. It shouldn't be overwhelming or barely noticeable.

An example of an underwhelming character core would be in my opinion someone like Pikachu. He's average in pretty much every area, though he has one move he can spam to play keep away, he doesn't have anything that stands out as his own. Good examples of an overwhelming theme would be someone like ROB or Lucario. ROB being a supposed zoner excels in every area, damage output, knockback, combos etc, and his extremely potent projectile game is just icing on his top tier cake. He can only be realistically shut down by counter picks and projectile spam as he doesn't have enough lag to punish attacks on whiff majority of the time. When it takes someone who mains the character to tell you their weakness, that means you have an issue, and when that weakness can't be exploited by the majority of the cast it means you have an even bigger issue because you now have an unfightable character.

In order to make a character good we have to take a lot of things into account. Things including damage output, attack range, startlag, endlag, safety, movement speed, priority, knockback, combo potential, recovery, fall speed, weight, shield damage, approach options, etc. Notice how all of the characters who need to be in your face to actually KO have options that either moves them to their target (Squirtle, Peach, ROB, Sonic, Fox, Marth, Roy, Ike, Luigi, Yoshi, Falcon, Ganondorf, etc) or forces their target to approach them (Ivysaur, Mario, Zerosuit, Falco, Link, Snake, TL, Pikachu, Pichu, Samus, Ness, Lucas, etc). Then you have the typical problem characters that just so happen to have both. (ROB- able to approach with side B cancels, and force his opponent to approach with lasers and gyros, Lucario- able to approach with up B, and force opponents to approach with Neutral B, Zelda- able to approach with teleports and force her opponents to approach with side B and ranged attacks. Kirby- able to approach with Burning or force opponents to approach with up B. Zard- able to approach with fair and force opponents to approach with neutral B. )

Do you see yet where characters have flawed designs? If there isn't a balance then the character is either too good or too bad. Someone can even have one thing and lack all the others and still be overpowered, which is what you see with Sonic's boost. He sucks overall because he lacks KO power, but he doesn't need it because once he starts a combo you're likely dying off the top. Boost combined with bounce allows Sonic to never stop chasing his foes vertically until he either messes up and lets them escape or they die. The only thing balancing it out is that He isn't easy to control, but that doesn't even balance it enough because his followup ability is too good.

If you still don't understand I'll go more in depth on a character by character basis.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
In a battle, knowledge ain't everything. Or rather, simply knowing all that doesn't mean you can pally that in agame.

I personaly think that power will give you a run for your money but it kinda depends on match ups anyway.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Newb, I've faced and defeated Power more times than he's beaten me. I'm aware that he isn't a bad player. But evidently beating him will prove something to him somehow, though I don't have anything in particular that I'd like to prove. To be truthful, this conversation wasn't even about me or anyone in particular but he seems to like making the conversation about specific people when he can't think of logical responses to my answers. I mean, I gave him the okay to give me his dream balancing and I was going to make that happen. If that makes me self-serving well...
 

Doqtor Kirby

Resident Design Nitpicker
Minus Backroom

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Yeah....

People around here seriously forget about PMing some one on these forums. This is a thread, open to discussion for everyone. It looks bad when people stop talking to everyone else and just start talking to one another. Kien posted a long message about what he knows and he is explaining it to power mostly. It's great that we get to see what's inside the devs heads but you guys are bringing everyone else into a debate that you guys started. It doesn't really look good to me and it makes the tension around here super high.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
This is worse than Kien and me, and at least parts of that were funny (and mostly insult-free).

Glyph's ROB is unwilling to fight my Falco - ROB may be top tier but he's a coward XD. Ness does worse against Falco in my opinion, but that's Glyph's choice. So ROB has one answer, and arguably 2/3 in Dedede/Lucario. Sheik also can work, as does Pit, but... it's an uphill battle for almost the entire rest of the cast.

Y'know who is a bad player though?

Me?

For what it's worth, I think we should just remove Yoshi's specials and every aerial except fair and the boot hitbox on nair, and then remove his jab, ftilt, utilt, and dsmash, while slowing down his usmash. Then give dtilt low KB and 100% trip rate, and make everything else not grabs OHKO. Because that entire idea was not serious but you had to read this far to see that.
 

Glyph

Moderator
I'm not sure why this 'rob is so hard and has good matchups against everyone' mentality is even still around, just look at Darx who damn near beat me in a tourney set using Kirby.

Frankly its a moot point to even try and discuss matchups save for some more obvious ones at this point since so few of our characters have been played to their full potential, if any at all. Player skill will always always always trump matchups. Falco/ROB is hard, but not unwinnable. Same thing for every matchup in this game. There's no hard counters (to my knowledge) in minus at all.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
There are some hard counters, Sonic and Zamus is the only TRUE hard counter I know of though.
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
Which one counters which? I'm going to guess Sonic counters Zamus, but it'd be interesting to hear why. (Or learn something by being wrong.)
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Zamus counters Sonic actually. Sonic is supposed to remain mobile. Zamus has a few paralyzer attacks with large hitboxes or that travel in the direction he is coming from. She also has her whip which attacks far beyond her body's reach either above, in front, or all around with nair. Those combined with her damage stacking and his low weight allow her to KO him easier than most characters as she can shut down all his approaches, pull him in, and send him on his way.
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
That surprises me. When I play Sonic against my roommate's ZSS, he finds the matchup to be very difficult for him. Admittedly, he mostly played ZSS in Brawl and Project M, and only very little in Minus. We've only played it about half a dozen times. I don't recall losing any of those, but I've played about fifty times more Sonic than he's played ZSS in Minus. I'd definitely say Sonic has a hard time approaching from any one direction, but also that it's very easy to change direction and come from elsewhere while she's still attacking the wrong direction. She's very easy to edgeguard as well, which is something I find Sonic to be very good at.

I assume you folks know the matchup a lot better than I, though. It's interesting that varying experience on the characters can lead me to believe a matchup is very easy when for you it is the hardest in the game.
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
I think matchup difficulty is a hard thing to qualify beyond 'hard', 'pretty even' and 'good'. It's hard to say which of two hard matchups is harder.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
LOL that MU is in no way a hard counter. If Sonic is running into Zamus's stuff it's because he deserves to get hit. And he can just SHAD and laugh at ZSS then smack her up good [and can't he shield out of side+b?]. C'mon it's not that tough for Sonic to mix up approaches.

He could also just walk and use his shield - just because Sonic CAN run crazy fast doesn't mean he SHOULD. As for recovery, he should be recovering high and kind of far out and then side+b'ing in - if he has to go low he has to go low, but that's life.

I wouldn't doubt that Zamus beats Sonic, possibly, but Sonic shouldn't be just running into traps hitboxes on ZSS - Toon Link's traps MAYBE, but not ZSS's hitboxes.
 

Valravn

Well-Known Member
That's the way I saw it. You can pretty easily just go around big slow hitboxes if that's what the ZSS is using to keep you at bay. Or you can run up, stop, spot dodge/shield the laser, and continue. (Which of course means ZSS has an incentive to grab if they expect that move, but so goes the Yomi train.)
 

Tybis

Resident Minusaur
Minus Backroom
He could also just walk and use his shield - just because Sonic CAN run crazy fast doesn't mean he SHOULD.
More people need to realize this lol
Simply the threat of doing it can be enough to keep your opponent at bay.
 

Thor

Well-Known Member
FEAR THE WALK

When I face your Kirby, it's more like "Fear the crouch." Then lasers are nigh useless and I can't use reflector either - and who actually WANTS to use Falco ftilt??? Thank god for jab, dtilt, low-flying dair, and phantasm...
 

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
BTW, when I started a new file on a second Wii, none of the unlockable stages were unlocked automatically.
I found this code, but haven't tested it:

Unlock all Stages [eric]
42000000 90000000
0417B658 FFFFFFFF
E0000000 80008000

If it works, maybe add it to the official codeset?
 

Doqtor Kirby

Resident Design Nitpicker
Minus Backroom
I found this code, but haven't tested it:

Unlock all Stages [eric]
42000000 90000000
0417B658 FFFFFFFF
E0000000 80008000

If it works, maybe add it to the official codeset?
No. That would wreck BrawlEx and probably cause more save corruption if it's put in the official codeset. If this IS used, you'll need to separate GCT it.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
Speaking of codes wrecking things. Ever since the footstool code has been added it seems like footstooling desyncs wifi. Anyone else notice that?
 
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