Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!

[knives]

How come there's no listed change about no djing out of TL's dair? That's a pretty significant change.

 

[NEWB]

Kirby can still do a dair on link instead throwing down the rock. The rock also hits up, which isn't helpful UNLESS you clip his side and smack him up into the side of the stage. Granted, he can still tech against the stage putting Kirby in a bad spot.

I've also seen stone used on tech chases or to randomly smack foes away. Even if Kirby is on the ground, stone puts him up very slightly allowing for the hitbox to smack foes away. It adds pressure being a surprise attack and all.

 

[NEWB]

How come there's no listed change about no djing out of TL's dair? That's a pretty significant change.

Yeah! WHO THE HELL THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO NOT TELL US THAT HIS DAIR IS NO LONGER SAFE ON WHIFF. Given his recent buffs, I actually think this is fair.

It's no big deal really. You just find out WHEN YOU ARE PLUMMETING TO YOUR DEATH!

 

[mozzery]

Stone is supposed to be a surprise move from above, obviously, and is meant to be punishable, hence the amount of time it takes to complete the move in total.

Yoshi doesn't need armor on egg roll because it is a mobility tool with attack, grab and jump cancels, not to mention it clangs with weaker attacks already. He doesn't need a safe laser approach because he naturally has a bad MU against projectiles, and already has a way to semi-way to deal with them in the forms of his armored jumps and his flaming eggs. Not everyone should be able to blow through lasers. If Yoshi gets armor on egg roll, by all logical means Rob should get armor or his reflector back on his Rotor, and we all know how dumb that would be. Hell, by that same logic, EVERYONE should have armor on something to let them approach.

I am not going to play Armor: The Game.

Not that I disagree with all of your points but I feel that this was a poorly reasoned post. In particular the line that he naturally has a bad MU against projectiles so he SHOULDN'T get something against projectiles is a particularly galling lapse in logical thought. The whole point of balancing a game is to attempt to get rid of as many naturally bad MU's without creating additional imbalances so the fact that he is naturally bad against projectiles should be a point FOR buffing him against projectiles, not against it. Note I am not advocating the change to be made, just pointing out that saying that he has natural problems against something without pointing out what advantages he possesses that mitigate said problems is not good debate and I prefer good debate over meritorious points to strawman arguments and unfinished comments.

Note, the proper way to argue the point would be to point to the strengths Yoshi has in boxing and aerial game that make up for him only having a "way to semi-way deal with" projectiles. If you can not expound on said virtues, or, failing that, come up with a reasonable alternative buff (because if he's weak against projectiles and his other aspects are lackluster he would need buffed logically) then you are not presenting a good case.

Note I personally have no opinion on the issue of Yoshi as it stands because I haven't played enough against him to have an informed opinion. I HAVE participated in enough debates in my life to have an opinion on the proper way to conduct an argument though. I apologize if this post comes across as too harsh, but you hit a pet peeve of mine and I have been known to overreact when that happens. Thank you very much and have a nice blessed day

 

[NEWB]

The roster is 41 characters. Not only is it impossible to balance the cast but a game without good or bad MUs would get really boring.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Not that I disagree with all of your points but I feel that this was a poorly reasoned post. In particular the line that he naturally has a bad MU against projectiles so he SHOULDN'T get something against projectiles is a particularly galling lapse in logical thought. The whole point of balancing a game is to attempt to get rid of as many naturally bad MU's without creating additional imbalances so the fact that he is naturally bad against projectiles should be a point FOR buffing him against projectiles, not against it. Note I am not advocating the change to be made, just pointing out that saying that he has natural problems against something without pointing out what advantages he possesses that mitigate said problems is not good debate and I prefer good debate over meritorious points to strawman arguments and unfinished comments.

Note, the proper way to argue the point would be to point to the strengths Yoshi has in boxing and aerial game that make up for him only having a "way to semi-way deal with" projectiles. If you can not expound on said virtues, or, failing that, come up with a reasonable alternative buff (because if he's weak against projectiles and his other aspects are lackluster he would need buffed logically) then you are not presenting a good case.

Note I personally have no opinion on the issue of Yoshi as it stands because I haven't played enough against him to have an informed opinion. I HAVE participated in enough debates in my life to have an opinion on the proper way to conduct an argument though. I apologize if this post comes across as too harsh, but you hit a pet peeve of mine and I have been known to overreact when that happens. Thank you very much and have a nice blessed day

Unfortunately this entire statement neither has relevance to what I said, nor helps Yoshi's case. Firstly, I do not spew reasonings without being informed or understanding what specific buffs would accomplish what. This debate is about adding armor to a mobile attack that has action cancels on it. If you don't know what armor does, it makes the character resist flinching up to a certain % (heavy armor) or resist it entirely (super armor). Egg Roll is not a move that needs to have any armor on it because of what it can do already.

Secondly, I actually play Yoshi, and I know what he can and can't deal with, so my reasoning is plenty justified. Buffing characters based on bad MUs only happens when there are moments like old Zelda vs Bowser, where it was so miserably one-sided that the match ups are flat out unfair. To say characters need buffs against projectiles (or more specifically mentioned, lasers) means we have one of two issues to deal with. Either everyone needs something to fight against these projectiles because they are clearly too strong, or the projectile itself is flawed, bringing us to this bothersome project of needing to buff everyone because of it.

I'm not against eliminating as many bad MUs as possible, but unless sensible buffs are suggested to handle things, characters will not receive buffs, and it will be explained why. It is not possible to 100% eliminate bad MUs in the sense that every character has strengths and weaknesses. Dorf and other heavies will always have trouble with faster characters and projectiles because they are heavy (combo bait) and large (massive targets), for example.

 

[Thor]

TL's boomerang being a ko move at all is really dumb, especially when its very clearly a pressure/poke tool based off its design. Feels really weird when it wafts over to you and lightly bumps you, and you launch up into the air. Its like if a jab hit straight up and killed at 150. Just because thats not an unreasonable percentage for a move to kill doesn't mean that move SHOULD kill.

Another change I'm really bleh about is kirby's stone move having a hitbox when he comes out of it. Firstly, it makes a move that really reserves to be punishable on miss very easy to abuse. I get a lot of Warlock Punch vibe from this where the only times this is really going to be effective is when your opponent assumes that this move follows general smash logic and had an opportunity to be punished and randomly does not. Secondly, electric? Why? I thought we were past the 'slap a random element on moves' stage of minus.

Pretty sure the boomerang KOs at 150... in a TL ditto... when TL is airborne... and doesn't DI.

Random elements were awesome in my opinion. I'd love it if Marth had ice on up4, fire on side4, electric on down3, and darkness on down4 of side+B, but I just think it's cool, not necessarily needed. That said, some moves having elements WOULD be rather silly (fire falco jab? No).

And for what it's worth, I like the idea of "bad MUs" in the game, not in the sense of ICs/Ganon of vBrawl, or even Fox/Captain Falcon in Melee, but in the sense of Marth/Pikachu, Pikachu/Dedede, and Dedede/Marth in vBrawl - they all have traits that make them bad against a few and good against a few, but they are all playable/winnable MUs.

Yoshi's not DESTROYED by Falco lasers/other projectiles or anything, they're just a problem for him in that if you don't know how to minimize the issue, you will be at a slight but notable disadvantage to lasers/good projectile users. I think this is good for a game, because it encourages character variety or greater depth with a character, allows for counters against characters that otherwise give someone trouble, it's insanely hard, if not impossible, to make all the characters even with each other, and it allows for moveset variety when we don't look for perfection.

I do NOT like the idea of a character who loses every MU, but once Pichu gets better no one will really have that issue (and Pichu DEFINITELY can pose a threat, but he doesn't win any of his MUs I don't think).

And if everyone could effortlessly beat lasers, they would be bad, or at least used for exactly one thing - obvious baiting, which would still make them at best mediocre.

 

[PowerUp]

ITT: Yoshi suxx. Deal with it.

 

[SunderStorm]

Anyone want to explain when exactly you can crouch cancel out of a dash? It's just after the initial dashing animation right? I still find it hard to distinguish the boundary of when I should hit that reverse quarter circle though. Too often I try to do a crouch canceled grab out of dash too early and do a dashing grab instead, or a dash attack instead of crouched cancelled AAA on Falcon (which gets me owned for basically what accounts to a mechanical mistake). Would it be too powerful to be able to crouch earlier in/during the dashing animation?

On another note, I met Thor today by coincidence and we are fleshing out that Falcon/Falco matchup. I expect we'll be mashing smash vs eachother super hard for the next two years or so.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You can only do it once the dash itself has begun, and it's different for each character due to how long their initial dash takes and how far it travels.

 

[Tybis]

On another note, I met Thor today by coincidence and we are fleshing out that Falcon/Falco matchup. I expect we'll be mashing smash vs eachother super hard for the next two years or so.

Don't mean to sound rude, but how the heck do you just accidentally meet someone IRL and figure out they're that one guy you met on the internet?

 

[Gold_TSG]

Magic. Duh.

 

[knives]

Uh, the picture? "Thor" from the forums is actually Chris Hemsworth.

 

[SunderStorm]

Don't mean to sound rude, but how the heck do you just accidentally meet someone IRL and figure out they're that one guy you met on the internet?

We wear our forum tags in real life just in case this might happen.

More realistically though I was recruiting/advertising for my gaming club at the university. Thor came up wanting to talk about Smash so Brawl Minus came up and we figured things out from there.

 

[mozzery]

Unfortunately this entire statement neither has relevance to what I said, nor helps Yoshi's case. Firstly, I do not spew reasonings without being informed or understanding what specific buffs would accomplish what. This debate is about adding armor to a mobile attack that has action cancels on it. If you don't know what armor does, it makes the character resist flinching up to a certain % (heavy armor) or resist it entirely (super armor). Egg Roll is not a move that needs to have any armor on it because of what it can do already.

Secondly, I actually play Yoshi, and I know what he can and can't deal with, so my reasoning is plenty justified. Buffing characters based on bad MUs only happens when there are moments like old Zelda vs Bowser, where it was so miserably one-sided that the match ups are flat out unfair. To say characters need buffs against projectiles (or more specifically mentioned, lasers) means we have one of two issues to deal with. Either everyone needs something to fight against these projectiles because they are clearly too strong, or the projectile itself is flawed, bringing us to this bothersome project of needing to buff everyone because of it.

I'm not against eliminating as many bad MUs as possible, but unless sensible buffs are suggested to handle things, characters will not receive buffs, and it will be explained why. It is not possible to 100% eliminate bad MUs in the sense that every character has strengths and weaknesses. Dorf and other heavies will always have trouble with faster characters and projectiles because they are heavy (combo bait) and large (massive targets), for example.

I have played enough to obviously know what heavy and super armor are, I may not be the greatest player but I know every character's moves, what they do, DI, matchups, etc. I was good enough in vBrawl to take a game off Seagull Joe's wolf in a tournament match, (though he won the set by flat out crushing me in game 3) and in my limited tournament experience won at least one set at every tourney I've attended. I just don't have experience playing against a pro level Yoshi player so I don't feel my opinion on Yoshi's strengths at the peak of his game in particular would be justifiable. If I had good enough internet to play online I'd challenge you with my Ike, Pit, and Rob, but as it stands I do not have the conditions necessary to play online.

Also, you may play Yoshi and may have a good feeling on why your opinion is justified, but you did an EXTREMELY poor job of laying it out to the rest of us. Saying that he has a "way to semi-way" to deal with projectiles that is CLEARLY not high enough quality to be enough on its own to win and not mentioning the strengths that he possesses to combat that weakness, or a sensible buff yourself to combat that weakness is adding nothing to the conversation other than saying that it's bad but not bad enough to justify a buff THAT big. In a debate as such you need to recommend your own alternative buff or argue effectively why he needs no buffs at all if you want to fully flesh out your position on the matter. Saying he has weaknesses against a subset, mentioning no strengths against another subset, and saying everything is fine is not the way you present a case.

I concede that it is possible that your only point in posting was just to say that the buff was too big, but not offering alternative points when you are admitting to the correctness of your opponents contention that a problem exists agaisnt a large % of the cast is a vexing decision.


Onto your Ganondorf point


Your comments on Ganondorf and the rest of the heavies gets to the crux of the problem and why you don't see it I don't understand. Ganondorf is a character who has a bad MU against the faster characters without corresponding good matchups against a large enough % of the cast to be considered a reasonable accommodation for said weaknesses. This is bad game balance pure and simple if a character has weaknesses against a large enough subset of the cast that their strengths against the portion of the cast NOT in that subset are overshadowed they are NOT appropriately balanced characters. If as you I'm pretty sure you'll agree the speedsters advantage over the slow characters is greater than the slower characters advantage over the mid speed characters or the mid speed over the fast characters, (an advantage imo that doesn't really exist) then you are encouraging a meta where speedster is the dominant way to go because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

The idea of only ridiculously lopsided matchups needing immediate help has appeal in the abstract, but when in practice a % of the cast has a slightly above average matchup against a large other % of the cast with no downside against the rest of the cast, THAT is a problem. A game where the speedsters had say a 55/45 at the top level advantage against the slow big characters without giving the speedsters a big enough weakness against a large enough subset of characters might make every game feel fair but it would still be a game in which the slow big characters need not really exist at the highest level because they are supremely sub optimal characters compared to the speedsters even if every match was winnable.

 

[Valravn]

I'm pretty sure you'll agree the speedsters advantage over the slow characters is greater than the slower characters advantage over the mid speed characters or the mid speed over the fast characters, (an advantage imo that doesn't really exist) then you are encouraging a meta where speedster is the dominant way to go because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Man, if only things were this simple. I would just win every match as Sonic because he's faster than everyone else. Sonic actually has a bad matchup, in my opinion, against Charizard and Bowser. Sure, he can combo them pretty well if he gets in, but the former has a massive range advantage and the latter has a ton of armor. On the other hand, I find that Ganondorf has a very good (at least very winnable) matchup against Toon Link and Fox, who are both much faster than him. Moves and movement counter other moves and movements, but I don't think the general speed of a character has all that much bearing on matchups.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

I can generally win matches with Purin, even against generally fast characters.

Although I do see some skew in the characters, especially towards ones with projectiles or long-range moves. But that's probably just me.

 

[Kien]

Just gonna say, that Yoshi has devastating combos, strong KOs, the capability to inflict flower element and STACK IT, a powerful projectile that can be partially aimed, and then he has armor on his flutter jump if I'm not mistaken. He doesn't need a way to combat his only weakness. That's like saying let's make Ganon fast and less punishable. No more weaknesses.

 

[PowerUp]

Are we supposed to take that seriously, Kien? By all means, let's play a few rounds. You can show me "devastating combos" and how to stack fSmashes with Yoshi (LOL). Just take it easy on me with that vBrawl secondary jump armor that you only while you're a sitting duck.

I guess it's just a coincidence that nobody dares to even try Yoshi for a single competitive match. Could it have something to do with the abundance of projectiles in the metagame, and that Yoshi gets slammed Link, ROB, TL, ZSS, Falco, Olimar, and even Mario because projectiles shut Yoshi down, and his eggs are too slow to wage a projectile war with anyone besides Zelda (who beats him with secondary hitboxes instead) and Charizard (who beats him in every other way)?

So much theorycrafting on this board. What's so hard about "nobody can make this character work, therefore let's look at some actual matches and objectively examine the character to see if something is wrong"?

 

[Thor]

Are we supposed to take that seriously, Kien? By all means, let's play a few rounds. You can show me "devastating combos" and how to stack fSmashes with Yoshi (LOL). Just take it easy on me with that vBrawl secondary jump armor that you only while you're a sitting duck.

I guess it's just a coincidence that nobody dares to even try Yoshi for a single competitive match. Could it have something to do with the abundance of projectiles in the metagame, and that Yoshi gets slammed Link, ROB, TL, ZSS, Falco, Olimar, and even Mario because projectiles shut Yoshi down, and his eggs are too slow to wage a projectile war with anyone besides Zelda (who beats him with secondary hitboxes instead) and Charizard (who beats him in every other way)?

So much theorycrafting on this board. What's so hard about "nobody can make this character work, therefore let's look at some actual matches and objectively examine the character to see if something is wrong"?

Yoshi is hard to play. Why do you think it took 12 or so years for aMSa to show up in Melee? The character has a PLETHORA of oddities that, if exploited well, will allow Yoshi to dominate the unprepared and make him VERY difficult to fight [I will say he has the potential to be harder to fight than Zelda]. I believe I've played Gold_TSG's Yoshi, or someone's at some point, and some of the stuff Yoshi can do is terrifying. The problem is, he's so different from other characters like Marth, Captain Falcon, Falco, Fox, Jiggs, etc., that he requires someone who is either able to play multiple kinds of characters well, or able to play Yoshi, but not others.

He's not slammed by any of those characters except ROB and arguably Olimar, because those characters are pretty crazy. And for the record, he has the approach angles to smack up ROB's blindspots good, so I would doubt that he actually is slammed by RO [unless ROB uses uthrow - that slams everyone].

I can't play Yoshi well, but I have put in considerable work with him in random matches because some of his moves like nair, fair, fsmash, usmash, utilt, and uair are crazy strong.

I also don't play Yoshi because Falco/MK/Pikachu/CF/[a few others] I enjoy more than Yoshi.

Also, fsmash, tech-chase fair, fsmash, stacked flowers. I've done it myself [though I agree stacking flowers is kinda hard - it's like saying Jiggs can stack flowers - maybe in teams...].

His projectile is a combo extender, much like Link bombs, and I think they also do a decent job of letting Yoshi then reach his target for more follow-ups, while bombs don't always do that.

Also, devs, if he can't, let Yoshi jump out of shield - I'd think it already occurred, but if not it is the one thing that Yoshi could really use.

 

[knives]

"Also, devs, if he can't, let Yoshi jump out of shield - I'd think it already occurred, but if not it is the one thing that Yoshi could really use."

This. Yes.

 

[NEWB]

I think that I can kinda play yoshi. Thing is, power is a great player that would probably eat me for lunch.

But I agree with Thor that yoshi isn't shutdown by any of those guys except probably rob.

 

[Thor]

Hey for what it's worth I'd totally be ok with reverting ROB's dtilt to have 80% trip rate, range, and IASA frames if it did 1%. Doing 4% on that thing will wrack up 20% in a heartbeat, which is what it was I believe, but giving ROB 5%? Ok, fine by me, and then it's still usable as a setup, which is what it always was.

However, I'm also all for leaving it as it is [Glyph if you don't think it's usable try playing Falco - then you'll cry about his dtilt XD]. I re-read Glyph asking for it to be reverted and thought "Hah no way." However, 75% damage nerf would be sufficient [I think] to allow this move to be the crazy set-up it once was, without also being the nuts damage-racking tool it used to be.

 

[Glyph]

Wow I didn't realize how many yoshi expects we had when I've never played a single one online.

Playing a character well against a few people does not qualify you as an expert. You have to be able to use that character that well against other people who have demonstrated that they can play at the highest level we have access to (which is far below the curve for competition melee, wtf is that whole amsa/yoshi argument) and move from there.

What I'm getting at is if something is broken, don't just say 'look this is bad and I'm an expert so there's that.' Get your buns online and PROVE its bad for the game by convincing other people. Either you'll win and people will hop on board, or you'll lose and see how to beat the thing you were testing. If something like this was followed instead of the BRoom's 'expert input' system we'd see a lot more reasonable nerfs and a lot less fine moves getting messed up.

 

[PowerUp]

You forgot our matches, Glyph? ;_;