Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!

Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom

The latest release of Brawl Minus, 3.Q, has arrived! In this Quintessential version of our Quixotic game, we work only harder to take Brawl and Quintuple the Quirky! (while still maintaining the balance Quota). Everyone's been Quacking for it, and I hope you enjoy it without Quarrels (but feel free to ask Questions!). Coming up with Q words pretty Quarrelsome, I Quit. You can Quote this Quotable passage but prepare for a Quiz that'll be Quizzical!

Is that every Q word? Good. With that out of the way, here it is! Brawl Minus 3.Q!

Just like before, you can select if you would like the Minus CSPs or the vBrawl CSPs by clicking their respective images below.

For Wifi play, please download this GCT and put it in the codes folder on the root of your SD Card.

As for what has been changed from 3.5, please read below:

3.5 to 3.Q Changelog

Ice Mechanics:
Damage Multiplier 0.5 -> 0.75
Knockback Multiplier 0.25 -> 0.725
Gravity 0.03 ->0.0488
Time reduced per input 4 -> 6

Shield pushback divisor:

L/R menu speed modifier:
Now any menu can be sped up to lightning speeds by holding R/L. This is especially usefull in selecting tags, as well as setting cpu percent in training mode, but this works on any menu.

Custom Random + stage choice random fix:
this should fix any and all freezes caused by selecting random characters, or random stages.

Yoshi's Story 64 has been replaced with Peach's Castle 64.
When Peach's Castle 64 was removed in favor of Saffron City in 3.5, there was an immediate outcry for players wanting the stage back. Initially we were going to put it over Saffron as we planned, but we have later come to the conclusion that Yoshi's Story 64 was a much less played stage, and decided to put it over that one instead.

Fourside has been reverted to Onett.
This one was a real toss-up. One one hand, people liked Fourside, but Saffron functioned similarly, and didn't have an annoying divide in the middle or as many walls. And on the other, the UFO and Camera in Fourside were rather wonky, so we went to the working Onett instead.

Captain Falcon
Jab has now been reworked.
AAA = no infinite jab
AAZ = infinite jab INSTEAD of the third hit (knee).

Falcon Punch
aerial momentum restored. Falcon no longer plummets to his doom when using the move in the air.
Forward momentum added to Ground Punch (0.2), and Aerial Punch (0.1), to help connectivity. Hitlag reverted to MAX 1.0 speed (3,3,3,6)

Super Armor restored Side Smash, Side Smash Charge, and Dash Attack.

Diddy Kong
fastfall and gravity speeds increased

bkb decreased slightly

uair, nair, bair
damage -1%

Monkey flip
invincibility traded for armor
landing lag increased on missed kick.

press Shield to launch the jetpack off of diddy, while charging.
This is a new high risk/reward move for Diddy. While he gets a new projectile that carries opponents for 1% per hit, but only explodes on contact with the ground (pulling foes inwards) or when time is up (90 frames), it also comes with the fact that he can't use up-B at ALL while it's out and is punishable when it starts, because of his lag. The flight trajectory is also pretty random.

Final Smash
Buffed again
Be afraid.

Donkey Kong
Donkey Punch
Charging in the air can now be cancelled with a dodge, and charging on the ground with a shield
DK had a strange thing with his charging animation. He was the only character who couldn't go from charging to shield without a large waiting period putting him at risk thanks to how he works. This risk was even larger in the air which wasn't very helpful to DK. This has now been fixed.

Laser speed has been reverted to vBrawl

Speeds have been modified to better fit his character.

replaced with a magical uppercut. It multihits and sets up giving Ganon a reliable low percent ground to air attack with good range and low ending lag. Not good for KOing however.

Down Smash
replaced with his old Utilt. Ganon is now able to charge his explosive heel drop and release it when he actually needs to. Though it doesn't cover the entire stage anymore. It also causes a dark geyser that also hits behind him, making for a good surprise on his foes.

Warlock Punch (Neutral B) Aerial
On hit cancel added.
The move being suicidal in the air wasn't a flat-out bad thing, but if Ganon can actually manage to jump off the stage and smack a dude in the face with it, he should be able to recover. If not, he deserves to die for not being able to properly show off, which in that case he should have stuck to a more reliable off-stage kill method.

Wizard's Foot (Down B) Grounded
Invincibility removed from arm and shoulder.
Invincibility moved from startup to frame 6.
Slowed FSMs to normal adding 3 frames of start up to the attack.
Damage reduced by 2%.

Wizard's Foot (Down B) Aerial
Invincibility added to foot and leg after first 6 frames. Terminates with hitboxes.
Sweetspot extended to cover duration of hitboxes.
Landing damage increased by 2%.

Dark Dive
Graphics added to display claw attack afterwards.
Before, a lot of foes would be surprised that this connected. Now this move has accurate visual representation to show where it hits.

No Sympathy Mode no longer damages Ike.
There were many complaints about NS mode being inferior with Ike losing his counter. Players felt like they were being punished for doing well, and the drawbacks of NS mode were originally in place due to not losing it on death and being able to activate it at will. These drawbacks have been removed.

Side Smash
Growth on windboxes & heatwaves decreased by 10.
Growth on normal Hitboxes decreased by 22.
Ike was killing mid stage below 50% on midweights. This was okay before his startup was sped up. They now kill about 20% later.
NS Side Smash- Growth on hitboxes decreased by 19.

Down Smash
given dust gfx back in normal mode so that the attack doesn't look as weak.
Down Smash NS- Ike had an extra hitbox coming out after the flames of his second slash that could add an extra 9%. This has been removed.

Uair- He can no longer use his Ikecopter multiple times per air time
It was netting him free kills at obscenely low percents and allowing him to reach the top blastline without using a recovery move.
height gained toned down a small amount.

Hit- endlag sped up 1.5%
Dash- dodge cancel added.

Heals Ike up to 4% so long as his health is above 0. Will not heal him into negative percents.
Healing Gfx on Aether only shows up on hit if Ike actually heals from the attack.
New NS Attack: Aetherial Eruption
Ike can choose to unleash the power of his eruption during the final hitbox of Aether to make for a devastating finisher. It deals high damage on him as well as his enemy. (Activate by holding B during Aether's landing.)

NS Counter
Damage increased by 5%
Growth increased from 5E- 64 (by 6)
Hitlag increased from 1- 1.3
Ability to choose between stronger counter or Flourish.
Reworked NS ATTACK: Flourish of No Sympathy.
Ike does a flurry of slashes followed up with an eruption. This move can only be done on the ground and deals high self-damage (20%).
Ike can hold the Eruption and cancel out of it if he chooses, but doing so forfeits NS mode although he won't take the self damage. (Activated by Holding B during a successful counter. Continuing to hold down B during the eruption will hold the eruption.)

Side Taunt
During NS mode he no longer says "I fight for my friends." He instead says "You'll get no sympathy from me."

New NS Attack: Razing Eruption
Ike dashes across the field and will leave a trail of explosions behind him. If he hits an enemy with the dash they become stunned and unable to avoid the eruptions.

King Dedede
Has been reverted to MAX 1.0
When his fTilt was originally using the 2.x.6 version, we found it discouraged Waddle-Dee focus and put it back on BnBs, where his heart should really go to his Dees. This should restore his focus on pure Waddle Power.

Many copy abilities have been updated, including Warlock Punch, Firebrand, and Falcon Punch.
Fixed copy abilities that were not working right like TL, Sheik, and Pit

Forward Smash
Sweetspot damage reduced 2%, timer reduced by 3 frames.
Growth reduced (60- 5b) by 5.

Attack 11 (Jab 1)
Comes out 2 frames sooner.

Attack 12 and Attack 13 (Jabs 2 and 3)
Both come out one frame sooner.

Comes out 2 frames sooner. (still the slowest Dtilt in the game)

Jump Strike (Side Smash)
Animation modified.
Hitbox damage increased- 3%- 16%.
KB given smash properties.
Second hitbox wasn't working properly. Has been adjusted to send at the Sakurai angle and work as a proper smash attack capable of KOing. Similarly to Link's old Fsmash, the 2nd and 3rd hits of this attack can now both connect on low percent foes to deal high damage if spaced properly. However, the 1st and 3rd cannot.

Comes out 2 frames sooner

Pivot Grab
Grabbox extended from 7 frames to 8.

Endlag reduced 8 frames. Angle changed from 169- 3C. Base KB increased by 10. (Link's Fthrow has been useless for a very long time. Now it works as a proper ground to air combo starter.)

Now as strong as it used to be prehelm splitter.
Also has been touched up a bit aesthetically.

Ending Blow landing
FSM sped up from 0.5- 0.7
This move has many bugs where it happens and you get caught in the landlag after a normal aerial or all hits don't connect. This allows you to get free just a little sooner in the case of one of those events. Also, the animation looked plain bad in super slow motion.

Bomb Pull
FSM slowed from 2- 1.7
Link was able to pull bombs very quickly to the point where they were basically free combo finishers at high percent thanks to Minus's hitstun. With this slight reduction, his opponents will have just a little more time to react.

Finally has that Green costume in the game

Double Team
Properly changes into instant mode at 75%.

Up Taunt
Now damages him 15% instead of 14%.

Growth increased from 64- 6a (by 6)

Base kb on first hit decreased from 56 to 42 Hex (reduced by 20)

Most distant hitbox move closer to lucario by 2 (8-6)

Dash Grab
Most distant hitbox moved closer to Lucario by 1 (8-7)

Pivot Grab
most distant hitbox made equal to other grabs. (14-8)

damage reduced by 1.

Back Throw
Growth decreased from 41-32 Hex. (reduced by 15)

Side B Close Combat
Growth reduced 5.
CC true combos out of jabs, so it killing ridiculously early while Lucario was at 75% was a bit insane.

cancel fixed, no longer has to wait 16 frames after hitting to cancel

damage 20 > 16
last hit always spikes now

kbg increased to compensate for Ice changes

Gravity, fastfall speed, increased by .1
Second jump height increased to compensate

Removed coin element on dtilt

Super Jump Punch
Green Fire GFX

Uthrow bkb lowered and kbg raised
acts as a low% combo tool, but doesn't kill until ~150%
damage 8% > 5%
now acts as a good chaingrab tool/mixup at low%'s

Final Smash
Negative Zone now 2X larger

Damage reduced from 5- 3%

changed to an on-the-fly killmove.
The old one was outclassed by dair in the air, and useless on the ground.

Side Smash
Sweetspot growth- 5C- 50
This was killing nearly 30% sooner than his non sweetspot. Making it Ike category smash strength. While still powerful, it no longer kills in the 70s.

Marth has been given a slight aesthetic makeover. He has lost elemental attributes in Dancing Blade on all but lw 3, and his sword glows have been switched around according to the type of attack he deals.

Red= Removed. He gave it to Roy.

Blue= Aerials and Tilts
Green= Smashes
Purple= Specials

Other small Marth changes.
Dancing Blade High knockback has been adjusted to ensure it KOs at the same percent as before.

Side Smash Lw
Now has set momentum.

Shield Breaker
Sword trail stays for the duration of the active hitboxes.

Meta Knight
no longer heals into negative percents

Forward Smash
lower tilted fSmash now hits

no longer gives the foe a beam sword
While a funny nod at first, Meta Knight just began to become discouraged from using fThrow due to it giving them a great projectile in beam sword. We traded honor for consistency, and MK now has his old fThrow back!

Mr. Game & Watch
Food clanks again

PK Flash now holdable longer (120 frames > 180)
damage will not exceed the cap (37%)
increased horizontal control(.01 > .02)

kbg decreased

Dair sourspot removed

Dash attack hitlag lowered slightly (1 > 0.7)
Fair hitbox size 9.5 > 7 (last hit is 8.5)
trajectory of last hit raised so it doesn't chain infinitely
hitlag decreased on multi-hits 0.5 > 0.3
DI multiplier 0.6 > 1
last hit hitlag increased 0.5 > 1
growth increased

fthrow reworked to allow better combo followups at low%'s

Light armor added to air PKT1
5% on startup
10% on hold/loop

Pikmin explosions now deal 5 damage instead of 8.

Side Smash Hi
Angle changed from 50 to 7D. This move was doing the same things her Ftilt but weaker. Now it serves it's own purpose.

Sweetspot damage reduced 1%, growth reduced 2%.
Was killing only 2% later than her fair which is supposed to be a much more powerful move as it comes out slower.

Back Throw
Endlag sped up 1.5x. Damage decreased from 11-8. Growth increased by 5 (28-2D Hex).

Up Throw
Allow interrupt moved 9 frames ahead. Base KB reduced from 46-30 hex

Down Throw
Damage increased from 8-11. Endlag sped up 1.3x.

Final Smash:
Animation now cancelable after the first hitbox ends
damage increased
spawns a bom-omb on the frame the hitbox ends/is cancelable
-note that ending the FS also ends the rain of peaches
I don't want to dance, I WANT TO KILL!

New model!
Pichu will no longer grow in size when being thrown!
Heal taunt removed.

Up Tilt
Knockback Values Changed.
29-2D (+4)
29-2D (+4)

Trajectories changed.

Side Smash
Self damage increased by 2%.

Down Smash
Now has a proper false "aura" system. As Pichu's percent rises the move deals more damage and more self damage.
Deals 18% / 6% Self after 90.
Deals 15% / 5% Self between 31 & 89.
Deals 12% / 4% Self before 30.

Interrupt moved ahead 4 frames.

Base KB increased by 1
Self damage decreased from 3% but added in with looping hits.

Dair landing
Damage increased by 2%.
Base KB decreased.
Self damage decreased by 3%.

Damage increased by 2%

No longer stuns foes, and instead deals a set knockback.

Wild Charge
Now actually has KBG so it can be used as a kill move again.

Down B Hit
Will now connect with Pichu on the ground and in the air!
Damage Increased by 1%.
Shield Damage increased 15.
Self Damage increased by 4%.

Can now cancel his arrow charge in the air to Lady Palutena's "Power of tripping in the air"

PT Charizard
No longer has impale on dAir or dSmash

PT Ivysaur
Ivy had strangely powerful ledge attacks that could even one hit shield break. These have been reverted to Vbrawl as they should have been.

Landing lag decreased slightly. From 1.3- 1.5
Poison added back to sweetspot.
Now that Ivy's sweetspot is smaller and more difficult to hit with it's not as easy to stack poison on top of poison for massive amounts of damage.

PT Squirtle
Midair Jump
Heavy Armor removed

Dash Attack
Super Armor removed

Up Smash
Growth decreased by 10 on two strongest hitboxes.
After finding that dash attack true combos into this move in certain conditions, it proves to be too powerful to be so easy to land.

2nd Gyro removed.
Side Smash Laser removed.
3rd Jump removed.

Speed slightly decreased
Trip rate decreased from 80% to 40%.
All other trips in Minus tend to have either less damage, slower interrupt speeds, or less range. ROB was packing a trip that had the best of all worlds.

All attacks
Sweetspot offset adjusted. From 2.6 - 3.2
Sourspot offset adjusted. from 7.4 - 8.2

Hitboxes on opposite arm moved to body and size increased from 3-5. Trajectory on these hitboxes now use the Sakurai angle on all moves but up tilt and aerials.

Gfx now shows

Spot dodge animation changed to melee dodge.

Walk animations modified.

Side Tilt
0.8 FSM added when last collision terminates, adding slightly more endlag.

Up Tilt
Given flame sweetspot. Initial hit Bkb increased 16, Growth decreased 28. Now works as a combo starter up to mid-high percents.

Side Smash
Start animation Sword Trail fixed. 1.4 FSM added from frame 12-25.

Up Smash
Animation made more vertical on first swing so that it can hit enemies above him.
1.4x FSM from frame 34-52.

Down Smash
2x FSM from frame 17-32.

Made into two hits. Damage and KB adjusted to compensate. Startup sped up, time between hits slowed down. Slightly less endlag.

Damage on all hitboxes reduced by 3%.
With air dash added he can line up dairs much easier than before so they don't need as much power. Straight down sweetspot size decreased by 1.

Fire Blade
Aerial version given angle from old air side B.

Sfx fixed. Wkb added to make the attack fixed. Bkb increased so that it more reliably connects into Hi3.

DED Low Finisher
Voice clips changed and no longer overlap.

Air Side B made into air dash.

Air Dash
Roy uses fire to propel himself through the air at a high speed. During this dash he is able to attack, jump, walljump, dodge, throw items, or grab an edge to cancel it.

Auto sweetspots edges. Heavy Armor removed.

Invincibility frames increased to from 6-10.
Voice clip changed.
Sword trail fixed.

Final Smash
SFX fixed, Sword Trail fixed.

hitbox changes

tweaked so all hitboxes will link much more reliably.

crashing has been fixed, attack now hits once for 10, instead of twice for 18.
Knockback growth reduced.

hits more reliably
now sends opponents straight up for combos.

now lingers, identical to ZSS’ grab.

Quick Ledge Attack has had a second hit added on startup to catch smaller foes. Beforehand, you could stand at the edge of the stage, and if you were small enough, Samus would go right over you.

Recovery Boost: More horizontal distance/control.
Air Friction: 0.75 —> 1.35
Horizontal Control: 0.034 —> 0.5

Jump V Initial Velocity: 2.85 ——> 2.98

Ground Attack Interrupt re-added

"Castlevania whip" The whip comes out much faster, paralyzes, and auto-cancels on hit.

Toon Link
Attack 11 (Jab 1)- Sped up 1 frame.
Angle changed to Sakurai from 50 Hex
Bkb reduced from 1E- E on hitboxes.

Tip hitbox has inward angle (A0) to make sure the rest of the combo connects. BKB increased to make it more functional.

Attack 12 (Jab 2)
FSM sped up from 1.3x- 1.4x

Dash Attack
FSM sped up to 1.2 until hitboxes come out.

Side Tilt
Lw Slowed down to 0.9x until hitboxes come out.

Up Tilt
comes out 2 frames faster.

comes out 2 frames faster.

Landing Lag Decreased
Nair- 12= 9
Fair- 14= 12
Uair- 16= 12

All grab boxes durations cut in half. This also shortens his grab overall as the modifiers have not been moved, making them slightly safer but also less easy to catch with.

Fallspeed 2.55 > 2.45
Meteor cancel window 25 > 20

Up-B kbg lowered slightly (prevents early kills)

Laser (gfx) growth and kbg increased on full growth (about 50 frames)
Lasers traded for slow lasers

Impale removed on fAir
This one may sound like a nerf, but trust us when we say it's not.

Zelda had an issue with her down tilt's hitbox and graphic effect. The move was repurposed to not be as safe and rewarding in the previous update.
However, it wasn't able to carry out the task of on stage ledge guarding better than her side smash.
This has resulted in an angle change which launches opponents upward and allows her to follow with aerials and more.
The hitbox has been moved up slightly to allow onstage hits and complements her kit very well.

B- Nayru's Love
Modified to allow Zelda to move forward or backward while using it while on the ground slightly more distance than her dodge.
Interrupt is 6 frames sooner.

Zero Suit Samus
Side Smash
Growth reduced from 7A- 6A. The move now kills 17% later.
It was toned down because most of her B moves allow smash followups. Killing in low 80s was uncalled for even with the high startup and endlag, as the range compensates for both.

Allow Interrupt removed.
This allowed you to get three d-smashes in a row, racking up damage at an obscene rate.

Alternate Jab remapped to Z, for easier use.

Dash Attack: Cancel moved to frame 50.
This is to prevent the repeated use of Dash attacks, which chained together near-perfectly, allowing you to push your opponent closer to the blastline. Another cancel has been added at frame 20, which allows you to use ground attacks. This cancel is also conditional, requiring the dash attack to have successfully connected first.

With that being said, have fun and Break the Limits!
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The Only Hero
Yayyyyyyyy it's out. TLink sorta got buffs. Also Pichu got an new model. Fantastic the other one had weird legs. Already downloading it gonna sleep now. Oh Yeah thanks smash minus team for staying close to your release date. The hype was getting serious for a moment.

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Nice, can't wait to try this out. :)

A little while later...

Here's my first impressions, after a hour or two of testing:

- General -

- What's up with those white bars on either side of the CSS in Versus and Training?
- In the vBrawl pack, the battle portraits are still the Minus versions.

- Glad to see Peach's Castle 64 back. Didn't care much about Yoshi's Island 64 or Fourside. I don't like Onett.
- How about an optional Stage Expansion Pack?

- Why was the global gravity increased?
- The L/R menu speed modifier is very helpful!
- Thanks for including v2 (Final) of Glitch's New Footstool Triggers code.

Mario's CPU AI won't use the second part of his Up B. NEWB made a fix for this:
On a different note, devs, please include NEWB's fix to Mario's CPU AI in the next update; CPU Marios won't use the second part of his Up-B without it. A lot of CPU characters don't use their Minus recoveries very well, actually...



- Characters -

Captain Falcon:
Thanks for fixing the PAWNCH so it's not suicidal and slippery anymore. I'm not sure if I like the higher forward momentum yet, but I think I can get used to it. The higher gravity is throwing my Falcon's Knee strings off, though. It's nice to have the infinite jab as an option again.

The previous U-Tilt was much better. It didn't come out as quick, but it was powerful and had awesome range. This new uppercut doesn't seem very useful except at very low percents... Besides, why would I use this when I can use Up Smash instead?

Down Smash
Hey, I liked the old Down Smash! This port of Up Tilt is not a good replacement. It feels weaker and it lost it's extended range, which was awesome. The new hitbox behind 'Dorf won't surprise foes for long.

Warlock Punch (Neutral B) Aerial
An on-hit cancel? That's... better than nothing, but offstage Warlock Punch remains a ridiculously dumb move to use offstage, and why? I still don't get why you won't let 'Dorf's signature move be actually useful.

The "Safe Flying Warlock Punch v1.0" tweak I made to 3.5 'Dorf is the best compromise so far, IMO; it only made Warlock Punch and Gandouken useful offstage, by changing their momentum (no cancels were added). Did anyone on the dev team even try it out? The tweak I made before that one, the "Cancellable Warlock Punch v1.0" has been the most popular in my local group.

What's up with those 66% damage offensive collisions I see in PSA?

Wizard's Foot (Down B) Grounded
Wizard's Foot (Down B) Aerial

Anyone care to share some insight on why these were changed?

Dark Dive
This GFX change is the only new thing I like about 3.Q Ganondorf.

No offense, but I think I'll stick with my two tweaked 3.5 'Dorf builds...

No Sympathy Mode no longer damages Ike.
Great change. Now there are no downsides to entering No Sympathy Mode, right?

New NS Attack: Aetherial Eruption
This form of Eruption seems too weak, considering it damages Ike 20%, doesn't send opponents too far, and doesn't kill Mario until ~100%. Feels like a waste of a No Sympathy Mode charge.

NS Counter
Very nice changes here. It's great to have Counter back in No Sympathy Mode. Flourish still does not link well, though. It deactivates No Sympathy Mode, and now it damages Ike 20% -- why would I ever use this instead of keeping stronger versions of Ike's other attacks? The only situations I can think of are:
A.) I want to end the match with a flashy finishing move
B.) I'm at critical damage, so I'm about to lose my N.S.M. charge anyway

Ike can hold the Eruption and cancel out of it if he chooses, but doing so forfeits NS mode although he won't take the self damage.
How is this useful? Let's say I choose to use Flourish for one of the two reasons I listed above.
Situation A.) I'm about to win the match, why would I cancel out of Eruption now?
Situation B.) I don't care if I damage myself 20%, because I'm already at critical damage. I want to use my N.S.M. charge to get one more K.O. before I get K.O.ed myself. If I cancel Eruption, I lose my N.S.M. charge, and what do I get? I don't damage myself, but my opponent is still alive, probably about to K.O. me.

New NS Attack: Razing Eruption
How is this triggered?

I still say that Eruption should be storable again, like it was back in MAX 1.01. Hey, that reminds me of a bug: Eruption hits do not contribute to Ike's No Sympathy Mode charge meter. You'd think they would, being a sword attack, but no.

Impale removed on fAir
How is this not a Nerf? Burying foes left them wide open for a Spark Kick.

I really like the Zelda changes! Ranged D-Tilt is now much better than it was in 3.5. However, it still does not work when Zelda is on a slope/incline/steps/etc. Another bug I found is that Zelda cannot cancel Transform in the air. Sheik can, so that's why I'm guessing it's a bug.
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Glad to see you pulled the ROB rework for something much less retarded.

Speeds have been modified to better fit his character.'
This is the vaguest chance I've ever seen on one of these lists. I don't even know if it is a buff or a nerf.

Not a fan of Ganon losing a functional Dsmash and Utilt for the sake of another new move that fixes a problem no one thought was broken.

I'm pretty astonished Link of all people saw as many buffs as he did this update, he's already incredibly strong. I do want to ask, exactly how much slower is his bomb pull now? Like in frames? A multiplier change in the changelog is nice, but its hard to get the real world changes out of that.

Lucario only gets his most inconsistent kill methods nerfed, but I do like the other adjustments.

The only thing that will really consistently matter for Peach that you touched on was her nair, which is also the only move that you nerfed. The buffs are nice, but nothing that will make a difference in making Peach a more solid character.

Squirtle nerfs strike me as premature considering we have yet to have a Squirtle actually make any waves, no pun intended.

Forget what I said about Link, TL is also blatantly better now. This grab change is a really poor one in particular, TL's throws are amazing and now it'll be significantly harder to punish a whiffed grab. Oh and his aerials are all faster on land just because why not. Buffs for the sake of buffs instead of to fix a real problem.

Overall this update has some good ideas and some less stellar ideas, but its good that forward progress is being made again at least.


The Only Hero
Forget what I said about Link, TL is also blatantly better now. This grab change is a really poor one in particular, TL's throws are amazing and now it'll be significantly harder to punish a whiffed grab. Oh and his aerials are all faster on land just because why not. Buffs for the sake of buffs instead of to fix a real problem.
TLink deserves all buffs. I'm surprised no one has realized he's the best tier and only tier. You just need to get gud and get on TLink level.
In all seriousness, I haven't even played TLink yet so your probably right.

Edit: Your right. He is better now. He doesn't really need it. My stuff is alot easier to do now. So thanks devs?
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Cool update... But when are we going to get the pre 3.5 Stage Selection Screen back??? I miss it so much, also big blue was so much fun in B-. What was the reason stage expansion was dropped in the first place? It had great organization of the more neutral stages and crazier stages, and it had SO MANY STAGES.

The Concept

Philosopher & Assassin
Can now cancel his arrow charge in the air to Lady Palutena's "Power of tripping in the air"


Daftatt, I think it was because people reported it causing freezes.


Well-Known Member
I'm also surprised that link got buffed. The only deserving buff I saw was to his dtilt since it is slow as balls. Need to check out that fsmash tweak and helm splitter tweak. I mean, his projectiles are so good already. It'd be nice if we can expect a more physical oriented link then a spammy projectile one in the future.

I kinda agree with glyph regarding toon link. The only thing deserving of tweaks was his jabs. Not sure why his aerials got even less landlag. Doesn't change him much but still surprising. But his grab getting less punishable sounds like a REALLY bad idea. First thing getting reverted for next patch I hope.

Can't wait to try out samus and Roy. There is just so much to respond to. I'll just test stuff first. Awesome job guys!


Well-Known Member
Squirtle nerfs strike me as premature considering we have yet to have a Squirtle actually make any waves, no pun intended.
my exact same thnking, squirtle is outclassed by wario in nearly every way.


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Bent, it takes more than an hour or two to get used to these changes. How can you eect them to give your suggestions a chance when it seems like you aren't given them a fair shake? Testing ingeneral is good, but we need to use humans before we say anything to definitive.


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The SEP didn't causes freezes for anyone... should be added back in (or at least, I'm the only one I know who was reporting freezes and I was misattributing the cause... who else had freeze issues?)

Is everyone in Minus just going to end up a fastfaller now...? There were like at lest 2 or 3 characters in that changelog who fall faster, and only one character got a fallspeed reduction, and it was very very slight (Wolf). I want old fallspeeds back. At this rate I might actually have to learn how to mess with my SD card properly and just mod stuff so I have mostly Max 1.01 fallspeeds and just add in the stuff that works for the builds (most nerfs, buffs, but not the stuff that's made for fallspeed changes or changes fallspeeds). But I'll give new Diddy/Luigi/others a shot still, because online play. [The only character who's fallspeed changes I am fine with are Olimar's, because he's been fully remade like 5 times, so entire new movesets need a different fallspeed, but these characters aren't getting entire new movesets...]

Other thoughts:

Don't understand what ice and shield pushback mechanic changes mean, but ok...

Glad to have Peach's Castle back, was never fan of Onett or Fourside, so I wish the PK kids were cut down a rep (they have NPC) and got back Norfair or just kept Yoshi's (I want Norfair back, so I'll ask: what was added in place of it?).

Ganondorf dsmash/utilt changes sound... odd... does dsmash (former utilt) now clear arrows or not? In an old build it said the utilt was designed to clear traps, but the thing never did so, and I really think it should, since his air mobility is not stellar, giving TL an easier time of it on FD just camping him out rather painfully (though I'm sure Gold_TSG has ways around it). What prompted this change??? Should add a full-screen hitbox that flinches and does 3% as well, but that's just a small opinion.

Other stuff I think should be read, but since I want the last part read I'll spoiler this if someone only wants to read a little bit [at which point skip this]:

Aether should heal 10% [it's too hard to land to justify only 4%], and multi-use Ikecopter was only 2 uses, and very VERY telegraphed. And FYI, Falco can reach the top blastline without recovery (wait don't nerf him though, it's not like his uair is a great vertical KO move, and his bair is horizontal, and nair/fair/dair are not going to do anything either).

Link got a crapton of buffs - I get his jab and dtilt buffs but the fsmash buffs? There wasn't a compensating ftilt KBG nerf? ... That's a lot of KO power Link is packing, and the bomb nerf seems relatively minor, all things considered.

Luigi... gets a chaingrab? Da fa...? GOTTA be joking me, or else restore Falco's, considering he currently has ZERO grabs where a followup is guaranteed regardless of DI. Coin element removal seems odd, fallspeed gripe as noted above.

Never understood why Firebrand and Thunderhand didn't do the same thing... if it's becuz not clones, make Thunderhand a stunner so Luigi can follow up on it (give it paralyze element? Yes ridiculously strong but it's very Minusy and would help him out in a cool way in my opinion). But I like Firebrand change.

Ness recovery armor? Sounds like a good idea - now must check if Falco dair deals 11% or not... I hope at least his bair does, or else gimps became impossible... if so, less armor so bair can pierce please - I get fair gimps are dumb, but ungimpable isn't Ness's style...

Pichu's taunt should still heal - it does self-damage and so should be able to heal a bit after a KO - just personal opinon though, not something I desperately want.

ROB nerfs seemed okay. His combo ability just dropped.

How to do new stuff like Pit's cancel and Roy's Fire Dash?

Sheik chain sounds awesome. ZSS nefs don't sound super necessary, but I never fought a great ZSS main, so...

Last and perhaps most importantly, Samus - if this new build doesn't make her better [good - like at least mid-high-tier], please please PLEASE revert her fallspeed (and leave the uthrow/dtilt buffs, but otherwise like the last floaty Samus build), and then give me like a month - I'll whip my Samus into good enough shape to challenge anyone who thinks floaty Samus is inferior and prove them wrong (I felt she was mid-high-tier back as a floaty, when uthrow and dtilt self-damaged). I'm tired of seeing Samus made worse because of a fallspeed change, and if this doesn't work I think I'm just giving up on fastfalling Samus.


So pichu lost its heal for no reason. Excuse my french but fucking why intentionally make Pichu worse? The 4%only heals weren't even good at all.
Jiggs still can only use half of its moveset.
Wolfs lasers... the hell?
Peach is underwhelming.
Roy is good.
Marths wavesmash has set momentum.... Unsure about this as marth in 3.5 was perfect.
All in all, 7/10. Lots of good stuff but the bad stuff is fucking BAD


Well-Known Member
Just remembered: are we getting Mewtwo or not? I vaguely recall some discussion that led to Glyph implying we'd get Mewtwo (sort of), but there's not a new character... did that get thrown by the wayside or is Mewtwo/other possible new character (please be Mewtwo though) not ready yet?

Also please read my other post - it's the one with a bunch of substance.

Bash, I don't know what parts of Jiggs's moveset aren't usable, but it's DEFINITELY not half - Bair, fair, nair, uair, and dair are all usable, and fsmash, jab, dsmash, usmash, utilt, are all usable for sure (I'm sure ftilt is fine and I recall dtilt doing cool stuff but don't know if I somehow have Jiggs mixed up with Kirby and Jiggs's dtilt is meh), and pound, rollout, sing, and of course rest, are all usable. Jiggs even gets an extra move no one else does called shield break. Uthrow is good, dthrow can tech-chase, f-throw and b-throw set up edgeguards - what more do you want? Like actually, what else do you wish was changed? If you dislike Jiggs, make a thread somewhere (or post here maybe) and tell me please.

The Concept

Philosopher & Assassin
He wasn't ready to be released yet.

Bent 00

Longtime Limit Breaker
Can't access wifi by default in 3.Q gaiz.

Just a heads up.
"By default"? Did they leave out the Wiimfi code by accident or something?

Bent, it takes more than an hour or two to get used to these changes. How can you eect them to give your suggestions a chance when it seems like you aren't given them a fair shake? Testing ingeneral is good, but we need to use humans before we say anything to definitive.
Of course, that's why I said those were my first impressions.

For now, I'm content with everything except Ganondorf and the lack of a Stage Expansion Pack.

Guess I'll also mention that 2 out of 4 times loading 3.Q, it froze at the first screen. I use CFG Loader.
Last edited by a moderator:


Well-Known Member
Yeah bash, that's great that you have your own vision of Jiggs but her entire moveset is very usable, except for ftilt IMO. Help someone who actually needs help.

Seriously guys, why is over half the things mentioned here regarding more stuff? You aren't seeing any new things for at least two months, so wait at least a couple damn days and play some PEOPLE before complaining. They have no reason to give any of your pleas any respect since you aren't granting the devs any.


Well-Known Member
In addition to my previous two posts (Read those if you care about any of my insights), did Random character select bug get fixed?

EDIT: NEWB, first I did say I'd give Samus some time, but some of my complaints are entirely valid - Minus was supposed to have CGs removed (not fully sure why, but they were) and then the changelog says they gave one to Luigi [despite Falco still lacking 100% followups to his grabs]. Just... WHY? Also the nerf to Pichu's taunt was unnecessary - he was already not good and did tons of self-damage, nerfing it further is just unnecessary. And the Aether complaint is also valid - healing 10% with Aether was just a very small bonus to begin with, and then more than halving that is just... no (and I'm talking about when playing Ike without self-damage, it was still too small to make a difference).

I do understand the point you are making about some of the other complaints being made (mine [ZSS, some stages, probably more] and others) though.


Well-Known Member
Last and perhaps most importantly, Samus - if this new build doesn't make her better [good - like at least mid-high-tier], please please PLEASE revert her fallspeed (and leave the uthrow/dtilt buffs, but otherwise like the last floaty Samus build), and then give me like a month - I'll whip my Samus into good enough shape to challenge anyone who thinks floaty Samus is inferior and prove them wrong (I felt she was mid-high-tier back as a floaty, when uthrow and dtilt self-damaged). I'm tired of seeing Samus made worse because of a fallspeed change, and if this doesn't work I think I'm just giving up on fastfalling Samus.

idk about you samus, but i really dig the new samus. i feel like im in complete control of the new samus compared to," jump and wait 3sec to come to teh ground again" old samus. I as a player, needs to feel like im in control of my char and this new samus delivers on that. same goes for the rest of the cast ( however, not saying that every char should have super fast fall speed.)


Okay saying half isnt usable is an exaggeration.

Utilt, uair, dtilt, dair, are just kinda bad in general. As jiggs has a better option for every situation you would use them.

The gripe I have is nothing combos into rest other than rollout.(some things should) so rest relies on sing and the occasionally unpredictablity.

The Concept

Philosopher & Assassin
So as you may have heard, there's no wifi code on this build.
Well here I am with updated gcts for the TWO different servers you can try. You can only use one server at a time, and you can only play those connected to that specific server. So choose wisely. MinimaWifi is a newer server and Wiimmfi is the server we've been using since Nintendo's shut down. You can find some info here.
Make sure you rename the gct file to: RSBE01.gct and put it in the /codes folder