Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!

[PowerUp]

Wait...explain the Zair mechanic. This is the first I've heard of it. Does anyone else have it?

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Wait...explain the Zair mechanic. This is the first I've heard of it. Does anyone else have it?

During our Yoshi mirrors couple days ago, did you see me DJC some aerials and not DJC some? I used Z to DJC Yoshi's airs. So it's like DJC but all the time.

 

[NEWB]

I don't blame you for not knowing power. It's already a thing so it wouldn't be put in the recent changelog.

It's best explained if you do it yourself. Double jump and do an aerial with A. That's normal of course. Double jump but use Z to do A attacks instead. This only happens with yoshi.

Experiment doing this with short hopped aerials too, not coz it's better but you will see that it stops all momentum and yoshi immediately starts falling down.

 

[PowerUp]

Are you supposed to bucket brake with it or what?

 

[NEWB]

Bucket brake?

 

[Gold_TSG]

GW, newb.

 

[NEWB]

Game and watch?

You mean you use Z attacks to halt momentum like GW bucket, Mario cape, and Marth sideb? Well... Kinda. It is probably more used as bucket breaking then actually hitting cuz humans aren't jesus with timing and stuff.

 

[Kien]

Kien, regarding your first three points, I've gotta ask:

2) Humor me. Show us a video of you playing the Mario who makes me look bad. Capes and FLUDD are not KO moves. They are gimp moves. Mario's nAir kills about as well as his fSmash.

3) Find the post where I proposed a specific nerf to Zelda, and either quote it, or correct yourself. I don't put words in your mouth.

2. I'll have to convince him to fight again. Then hopefully I can send the data to someone so they can make the replay.

3. Here's a lazy quote.

Zelda is definitely OP. Her boxing is phenomenal, and she completely rules from a distance. She has instant mobility with the warp, and her recovery is very safe as long as you can aim. An approaching reflector even allows her to dominate the few characters who might try to fight her from a distance. Why is her boxing so strong when she is clearly designed to be a ranged fighter?

Is that not implying that she shouldn't have good close range? You seem to be stating it multiple times in a short post, which usually always means there is a problem with it.

 

[NEWB]

It can be implying that. English is a stupid language with context clues and what not. You literally could or could not be implying that power.

I assumed you weren't though.

 

[PowerUp]

Is that not implying that she shouldn't have good close range? You seem to be stating it multiple times in a short post, which usually always means there is a problem with it.

No...no, it's not. That quote clearly states that Zelda is OP, and then gives the reasons I think she is OP. I never say "nerf her boxing". I ask "why is the boxing so good". Maybe she's supposed to have great boxing, but have some other weakness that either isn't panning out or I don't know about yet. If anything is being implied, it is that I cannot identify any counterplay against her, which is still not a nerf suggestion.

As a general rule of reading comprehension and internet etiquette, if you can infer multiple, contradictory ideas from a statement, then it is likely that no inferrence was intended, and you should not jump to conclusions, much less put words in someone's mouth.

 

[Kien]

Does overpowered not mean having more power than one should possess?

 

[Bent 00]

Might as well mention this: As Zelda, I played a 30-Stock "Championship Match" against my best local player's Luigi today. We're of the same skill level IMO. I trailed him by 1-3 stocks until the last third of the game, when I made a comeback. I ended up winning by just 2 stocks.

As a frame of reference, no one else in our group can beat his Luigi consistently, and I can only do it as Zelda or maybe 'Dorf.

He usually approached my Zelda from a 50° angle, avoiding the reach of ranged F-Smash, F-Tilts, and Up Smash. I got knocked out of Down Smash and Up Smash frequently. This Luigi predicted my rolls and punished with point-blank Green Missiles, and edgehogged me very effectively. He was mindful of Zelda's ranged hitboxes at all times -- I was only able to spike him once or twice.

If only I could save Replays of those epic 30-Stock matches! Maybe I should invest in a video capture device.

 

[Thor]

Some suggestions now that I've had a chance to spend some time with Q:

Zelda is definitely OP. Her boxing is phenomenal, and she completely rules from a distance. She has instant mobility with the warp, and her recovery is very safe as long as you can aim. An approaching reflector even allows her to dominate the few characters who might try to fight her from a distance. Why is her boxing so strong when she is clearly designed to be a ranged fighter?

Bowser's armor is really hard to deal with online...maybe it is less of an issue offline. Perhaps the window for teching RRdown could be increased?

Falco's reflector is far too powerful. Not only does it shut down physical approaches, but it also sets up, and is totally safe to throw. It should either only reflect projectiles, or only hit physically (and even then, not drag the opponent back to Falco).

Charizard's upB is insane, and KOs <50% easily...he has too much longevity and power to possess that kind of early kill potential.

ZSS feels good, but she relies very heavily on uTilt spam to start combos. Maybe you could give her more variety by reducing its power and making her throws better setups (even dThrow can be DI'd to a safe distance easily).

Regular Samus power bombs are more or less unusable. Maybe if the hitbox was bigger or the explosion lasted a few extra frames. The new screw attack feels janky, but it works. I think her zAir may still be causing desyncs or even crashes. Missile canceling is hard due to her fall speed, but her improved melee makes up for it.

Snake should be able to do his air dodge grenade thing.

Captain Falcon's knee chaining into itself is ridiculous. Offline, he can 0-death a number of characters quite easily with it out of a chaingrab. Maybe you could make his dThrow techable, since it is so easy to land and follow up on?

Toon Link's boomerang KOing at 150% is not really necessary. He shouldn't be able to poke for KOs when he controls space so well.

Sonic completely destroys a number of characters, yet is destroyed by TL due to the polarizing nature of his high pressure/hitstun game. Maybe he should lose some combo potential in exchange for better KO moves.

DDD is dumb dumb dumb. Waddle Dee command is a cool idea, but the implementation is horrible. They just soak up EVERYTHING, and it makes for alot of horrible matchups.

I actually don't think the faster boxing makes that much of a difference for Link, but I tend to avoid boxing with him as much as possible anyway.

Zelda's not OP. Zelda is shut down hard by good rushdown characters and characters with a solid projectile game. Falco mostly just laughs at her approaching reflector, and Lucario and ROB still give her a nightmare. I also assume DK (or at least Gold_TSG) will zero-death a Zelda they can touch - she's very VERY light. You have to get close, but it's very rewarding.

Did not know you can tech RR - can you tech flying slam too? Armor is annoying but workaroundable (bait it and smack him up).

Falco reflector is fine. It used to meteor smash, and they realized it was too much. It's good, but can be baited hard. It's also Falco's only good ranged attack besides lasers (bair and fsmash are arguably passable). I think it's a good substitute for ftilt in most situations.

Charizard up+B is good, but SDI it if hit with the full thing, or DI carefully, and he's SUPER punishable on landing. I'd need to play Sneak, but I don't think it's an issue, even having played a few other 'zards. The sweetspot is small, and while rewarding, not exactly consistent.

ZSS dthrow you always get guaranteed fair or uair if you follow-up right - you're not doing it right. Or else this an issue specific to Puff or something...

People know my thoughts on Samus, but I will say that Power Bombs (Which she did have in 3.3) are awesome. Play Gold_TSG for a Samus with a good ground AND air game, and he'll show you how he uses them.

Falcon is in a great spot personally, and I don't know about this Snake thing. But Falcon can struggle to get in, so I think it balances out. Also, DI.

TL boomerang is fine - if he's raising you up that high poking for KOs seems fine to me. Also airdodging and don't get hit, it's not a Gandouken or something.

Sonic loses to Sheik nair about as hard as he loses to TL - I don't know about better KO moves for him... he's pressed for KOs but his racking is so good that nair, fsmash, uair, and bair [and his throws] are generally enough.

Dedede is nuts, no idea how they plan to nerf him or buff others to deal with him. His spot is awkward because there aren't that many people who play him very effectively to identify what the problem is or how to fix it.

Super armor on mobile attacks is plain unfair. Imagine if Sonic had super armor on his down B or boost.

Lol Bowser dair, fsmash, RR, GC. But Bowser (Armor on Yoshi's egg would be so dumb - maybe on another attack, but not a bouncing egg).

 

[NEWB]

He said mobile attacks.

RR is too slow to be any more mobile then walking, GC has him falling like a rock and is very grab able, and Fsmash isn't mobile either.

Dair can count as being mobile as it safely powers through things and gets him to the ground. Even Uair, though it's unreliable usually situational.

 

[Thor]

He said mobile attacks.

RR is too slow to be any more mobile then walking, GC has him falling like a rock and is very grab able, and Fsmash isn't mobile either.

Dair can count as being mobile as it safely powers through things and gets him to the ground. Even Uair, though it's unreliable usually situational.

Mobile = able to move.

 

[NEWB]

That's being technical. By that logic, every move in the game is a mobile attack cuz every animation has movement. He seems to be talking about moves that offer mobility like fox illusion.

 

[Thor]

That's being technical. By that logic, every move in the game is a mobile attack cuz every animation has movement. He seems to be talking about moves that offer mobility like fox illusion.

RR actually moves you a fair distance. And for fsmash, I was actually referring to how you can tank an attack and then dodge cancel it, but that's not really mobile per se, you're right.

 

[NEWB]

The reason why I didn't really count RR is because bowser can dash at that speed anyway. It's exactly an attack used to get from point a to point b quickly but I guess it DOES classify as mobile. It's just a real crappy one.

 

[Thor]

Fair enough.

I think people agree that armor on Yoshi's egg roll would be bad - maybe like some 3% single-hit armor, so that he could bounce through a single Falco laser or something, but where any multi-hit or mildly strong attack would break it - super armor would be very VERY silly on that attack.

 

[NEWB]

Absolutely

 

[Glyph]

TL's boomerang being a ko move at all is really dumb, especially when its very clearly a pressure/poke tool based off its design. Feels really weird when it wafts over to you and lightly bumps you, and you launch up into the air. Its like if a jab hit straight up and killed at 150. Just because thats not an unreasonable percentage for a move to kill doesn't mean that move SHOULD kill.

Another change I'm really bleh about is kirby's stone move having a hitbox when he comes out of it. Firstly, it makes a move that really reserves to be punishable on miss very easy to abuse. I get a lot of Warlock Punch vibe from this where the only times this is really going to be effective is when your opponent assumes that this move follows general smash logic and had an opportunity to be punished and randomly does not. Secondly, electric? Why? I thought we were past the 'slap a random element on moves' stage of minus.

 

[NEWB]

Wait... Since when does that move have an electric hitbox? That wasn't in any changelog. I'll have to look at it but it sounds really stupid. Though to fair glyph, that move is otherwise relatively useless. Not that every move is apparently useful.

I also don't like his boomerang koing at all. It seems like a very random buff and highly unnecessary.

 

[Darxmarx]

Though to fair glyph, that move is otherwise relatively useless. Not that every move is apparently useful.

I like to use the move when my foes get greedy and start chasing me in the air directly upwards. That might just be me, though.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Stone is supposed to be a surprise move from above, obviously, and is meant to be punishable, hence the amount of time it takes to complete the move in total.

Yoshi doesn't need armor on egg roll because it is a mobility tool with attack, grab and jump cancels, not to mention it clangs with weaker attacks already. He doesn't need a safe laser approach because he naturally has a bad MU against projectiles, and already has a way to semi-way to deal with them in the forms of his armored jumps and his flaming eggs. Not everyone should be able to blow through lasers. If Yoshi gets armor on egg roll, by all logical means Rob should get armor or his reflector back on his Rotor, and we all know how dumb that would be. Hell, by that same logic, EVERYONE should have armor on something to let them approach.

I am not going to play Armor: The Game.

 

[Glyph]

Stone has a lot of uses, mainly for when people get overly greedy in chasing upwards (like Darx said) but also at the ledge. A lot of recoveries like Ike or Link are very predictable but hard to trade with, but dropping a rock on their head means you win that trade easily every time. Gotta be careful doing that since if you don't come out of it in time you just threw away a stock, but in normal play you should have ample time to react.