Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!
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Vauss
Active Member
I don't see how that helps? The problem is that they will smack into anyone who isn't DDD when they go flying, regardless of who hit them, so any attack that pulls the target towards you will end up with minion in your face, or even any attack that knocks them away, but they're close enough that they still hit you
PowerUp
Well-Known Member
My reasoning is that it is hard to fight through a group of them due to the fact that any grounded attack less powerful than a smash will clank with their hitboxes (8% rule). It basically forces you to stay in the air the whole game, which isn't an option for a fair number of characters. They also absorb projectiles of any strength, further reducing your options. It's like a nastier version of TL's arrows - they are bigger, block all projectiles, don't go away on contact, and have additional utility through commands or being launched.
Glyph
Moderator
I'm not sure if that clanking statement is accurate, I know once cleared them off with moves like jabs and ftilts before with a ton of characters. That would probably be true for the minion while its in flight or being made to attack, but I'm not as sure for when they're just walking around.
A change to one character does not directly equate to a change of another.
DDD himself is just really awkward, but Dees really make up for that, though they're somewhat spammy. I wouldn't mind if he lost 1, or even 2 max Dees if it meant he was more mobile and usable, because he feels like an oversized sack of potatoes that just kinda flubs around. Less spam, less lopsided matchups? Maybe I'm oversimplifying it.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Well, the dees would have less controllable presence if he couldn't spawn them wherever he wanted. This would give him variable ability on small or large stages. That may not the best route to go though.
I also don't see anything wrong with them really, as I haven't played a good DDD. I also haven't faced a zelda that I can't keep away from. Though I haven't faced a good combo heavy zelda.
I figure the best way to balance her is for her to lose distant hitboxes on one or two moves. I don't think she needs the one on her bair personaly.
I also don't see anything wrong with them really, as I haven't played a good DDD. I also haven't faced a zelda that I can't keep away from. Though I haven't faced a good combo heavy zelda.
I figure the best way to balance her is for her to lose distant hitboxes on one or two moves. I don't think she needs the one on her bair personaly.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Warping around is Zelda's gimmick. Removing any of her ranged hitboxes would be a HUGE Nerf to her, especially the ones on F-Air and B-Air. Those are essential combo moves IMO.
@Glyph, @Kienamaru, @owo, help me out here; you didn't have a hard time against my Zelda at all. What's your strategy against her?
Before anyone else says Zelda should be Nerfed, watch Minus footage of her on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/DukeBattledrive/search?query=zelda
Zelda loses the majority of matches she's featured in. Glyph in particular stomps her.
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
You think losing even one is a huge nerf? It's a well deserved nerf it can result in loops as reported. It is also kinda unfair for anyone to have zero blind spots. All of her attacks are incredibly ranged and 100% safe. Good luck telling me how that could possibly be balanced.
I don't think she is particularly broken but she has power just for powers sake and not in a way that seems very interesting.
I don't think she is particularly broken but she has power just for powers sake and not in a way that seems very interesting.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Zelda's weak spots are literally right beside her. Dodge or shield the predictable Jab, D-Smash, or D-Tilt, and you've got a free grab on Zelda.
People who think she's overpowered just don't know how to play against her properly, or aren't playing aggressively enough.
It may seem like Up Smash is a safe move, but it's actually easy to drop down on Zelda slightly diagonally as she's using it. I get knocked out of that move frequently.
You can also bait out Nayru's Love and punish that.
People who think she's overpowered just don't know how to play against her properly, or aren't playing aggressively enough.
It may seem like Up Smash is a safe move, but it's actually easy to drop down on Zelda slightly diagonally as she's using it. I get knocked out of that move frequently.
You can also bait out Nayru's Love and punish that.
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
Sounds like metal Mario all over again. And he got nerfed. Granted metal Mario was just something added to Mario, this doesn't mean zelda is any funner to play against.
A good zelda would not be baited so easily.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
The main problem with Metal Mario was that he encouraged his opponent to stall out the Metal effect. Some characters had no good options (like chaingrabbing) against him.
Zelda encourages you to play aggressively -- a great thing for a fast-paced fighting game.
Zelda encourages you to play aggressively -- a great thing for a fast-paced fighting game.
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
No, she applies a constant pressure just by being on the field. Many instances situations would encourage you to stay away because you can't smack her around unless you already managed to get her in hitstun. Her moves are safe enough to say that she also he no bad matchups. She can juggle every character on the roster to death.
And metal Mario didn't encourage you to stall out. You just found no other way to deal with him. He also required you to play aggressively, baiting his attacks and then punishing him with chain throws or juggles.
And metal Mario didn't encourage you to stall out. You just found no other way to deal with him. He also required you to play aggressively, baiting his attacks and then punishing him with chain throws or juggles.
1. Super armor on mobile attacks is plain unfair. Imagine if Sonic had super armor on his down B or boost.
2. Nerfing the KO power on one move shouldn't have caused him to be garbage tier in KO power. If you have trouble KOing with Mario you aren't using him right, sorry to say. I've faced a good Mario before and they never had any problems KOing me. Cape and FLUDD not being a part of why.
3. Zelda is harder to fight than I though, but your proposed nerfs would kill her harder than Link's boomerang going back to Vbrawl would kill him. Her close ranged attacks aren't as good as you say and I don't think they chain into any particularly good combos. Dtilt into itself or smashes is about all I can really think of that would be guaranteed. Also, dodging Din's Fire even double isn't too hard if you just time it right. You being a Mario main doesn't he gain invulnerability when he capes? I think you could cape it. Might be wrong though.
4. Bowser's armor is a definite issue, but when I toned it down the other devs thought it ruined him. Just time your attacks around it, or use his immobility while armored to gain chip damage. Him missing a RR would let you get in a good 4 fireballs for free.
5. I agree that his reflector is too good. It's the only thing on Falco that I think is too good to be honest. Especially considering it reflects from behind and can cancel regardless of if it hits.
6. I also agree that Charizard is too strong. A lot of his moves have extreme power and versatility which is very uncommon considering he has one of the best walls, super armored smashes, great land/grab/air game, and better projectiles in the game.
7. I've been able to escape Falcon's knee chain a few times. You have to know when it's coming, that's about it. I find it harder to avoid Ness's moves really. With Falcon his knee only sweetspots on the first 3 frames, so if you can get away from the initial hitbox you're in the clear.
8. How can you complain about a move that KOs at 150? That is very high in the range of pretty much anything kills you. Not to mention at that percent you can dodge or block the rang. TL can't combo into it either outside of multibombing you which means you messed up somewhere.
9. Sonic doesn't need to lose combo potential. His KO moves are strong but punishable. That's really where his problem lies, not the power.
Bent, saying that someone in particular stomps a character doesn't mean that character is balanced. It just means they know how to counter your playstyle with said character. However, I don't believe Zelda is in need of many nerfs if any. Especially not something so drastic as losing teleport boxes on fair and bair. The only way I could see her losing teleports was if those two moves had perma sweetspot status to make them viable.
Anyway, In our tourney matches Bent had a leg up on my Link for awhile, and I managed to make a pretty much full stock comeback on him with well timed projectiles. It's all about your timing, Nayru's love barely approaches on the ground and in the air it sends her a set distance. So learn that distance and timing and you can get her in many bad situations.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Charizard has very few combos. What's wrong with giving him high power?
Also, his fsmash would suck badly if it lost its armor.
Does his upb really kill that early with di? It could stand to get a little weaker but his upb is insanely punishable and tends to not sweets pot ledges, adding to its punishable able nature.
Also, his fsmash would suck badly if it lost its armor.
Does his upb really kill that early with di? It could stand to get a little weaker but his upb is insanely punishable and tends to not sweets pot ledges, adding to its punishable able nature.
PowerUp
Well-Known Member
Kien, regarding your first three points, I've gotta ask:
1) Royal rampage? Flame choke? A number of dashA? Nevermind the fact that other approaches with similar function (illusion, extreme speed) have better hitboxes, are much faster, and are harder to beat out due to being aerial. Yoshi has no projectile invulnerability, super armor, and cannot use egg roll effectively in the air. That's why his approach is demonstrably worse than everyone else with this kind of move, and it's what holds him back as a character.
2) Humor me. Show us a video of you playing the Mario who makes me look bad. Capes and FLUDD are not KO moves. They are gimp moves. Mario's nAir kills about as well as his fSmash.
3) Find the post where I proposed a specific nerf to Zelda, and either quote it, or correct yourself. I don't put words in your mouth.
1) Royal rampage? Flame choke? A number of dashA? Nevermind the fact that other approaches with similar function (illusion, extreme speed) have better hitboxes, are much faster, and are harder to beat out due to being aerial. Yoshi has no projectile invulnerability, super armor, and cannot use egg roll effectively in the air. That's why his approach is demonstrably worse than everyone else with this kind of move, and it's what holds him back as a character.
2) Humor me. Show us a video of you playing the Mario who makes me look bad. Capes and FLUDD are not KO moves. They are gimp moves. Mario's nAir kills about as well as his fSmash.
3) Find the post where I proposed a specific nerf to Zelda, and either quote it, or correct yourself. I don't put words in your mouth.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
More on yoshi...
Remember that yoshi has Z triggered aerials. Using the Z button with yoshi will make him do his aerials. What's special is that this halts his momentum, all of it. You use this with egg rolls ability to cancel into aerials when bouncing. You can also use Z aerials to cancel yoshi's momentum when he is plummeting with his downb.
Dair doesn't have very much endlag. Onstage, you should short hop and immediately dair. You hit them abunch of times, racking up huge damage, and then smack them with Nair just before yoshi lands. This is always lethal since the foe is then in perfect position for egg bombardment. And of course, I'm talking about using regular dair, not Z dair for this instance.
Dair has multi hitting and spiking hitboxes. When the foe is at low percents, always do the above method. When they are at higher percents, dair has enough power to hit foes foes down and against the stage, popping them up a little bit. This true combos into grabs or fsmash or dsmash, which is lethal at said higher percents. This also the time that short hopped Z dairs become useful, since they will combo into the same stuff now. At lower percents, short hopped Z dairs won't hit foes up and will leave yoshi in landlag.
I haven't experimented with his bair since the aforementioned works so well.
Remember that yoshi has Z triggered aerials. Using the Z button with yoshi will make him do his aerials. What's special is that this halts his momentum, all of it. You use this with egg rolls ability to cancel into aerials when bouncing. You can also use Z aerials to cancel yoshi's momentum when he is plummeting with his downb.
Dair doesn't have very much endlag. Onstage, you should short hop and immediately dair. You hit them abunch of times, racking up huge damage, and then smack them with Nair just before yoshi lands. This is always lethal since the foe is then in perfect position for egg bombardment. And of course, I'm talking about using regular dair, not Z dair for this instance.
Dair has multi hitting and spiking hitboxes. When the foe is at low percents, always do the above method. When they are at higher percents, dair has enough power to hit foes foes down and against the stage, popping them up a little bit. This true combos into grabs or fsmash or dsmash, which is lethal at said higher percents. This also the time that short hopped Z dairs become useful, since they will combo into the same stuff now. At lower percents, short hopped Z dairs won't hit foes up and will leave yoshi in landlag.
I haven't experimented with his bair since the aforementioned works so well.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Yoshi is far from needing a safe approach. He has one of the best grabs in minus, he has the Boot, he has eggs with lingering boxes, two enormous jumps with armor, a super spike fair, and much more. To give him protection on egg roll would jump him up to damn near A-Tier, if not S.
Bair still kinda sucks, but other than making it connect properly, I don't know what else to do with it.
Bair still kinda sucks, but other than making it connect properly, I don't know what else to do with it.