Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
Maybe they should but it's only fair to test new utilt and dsmash as a more finished concept. It's easy to say let's go back to when it was fine but that isn't really being open minded.
I mean, I guess the reason why he's being looked at again are because warlock punch is potentially becoming some new tool. The may be changing these moves around that,
I mean, I guess the reason why he's being looked at again are because warlock punch is potentially becoming some new tool. The may be changing these moves around that,
Thor
Well-Known Member
This idea is worse than my [joke] idea to add a jump-cancel to rest on whiff... and I somehow get the feeling you're serious.
If it had a 0% trip rate I'd be fine with this reversion, but dtilt -> fsmash is dumb and practically guaranteed if dtilt is reverted as it was. And I'm like 99% sure you're straight-up lying about "Easy to tech." That's like saying Fox's dthrow is easy to tech in lag.
Glyph
Moderator
How about you try it out before assuming its too hard to do man? Teching this is no harder than any move in the game, so I can't justify it being nerfed when a very simple counterplay is already in effect.
As for your fox comparison, I really don't see how that's related. Fox's dthrow IS easy to tech, even in lag. You just need to know the timing.
Edit: I honestly don't care if the trip rate get reduced to like 50% even. Give the speed back and I won't complain.
As for your fox comparison, I really don't see how that's related. Fox's dthrow IS easy to tech, even in lag. You just need to know the timing.
Edit: I honestly don't care if the trip rate get reduced to like 50% even. Give the speed back and I won't complain.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
I know that.
Why is his different though? Other characters would either airdodge cancel their moves or shield cancel the move when they land. Why is his different?
I ask because his is less convenient to cancel in the air but more convenient to cancel on the ground. It might actually be better canceling with his way.
Why is his different though? Other characters would either airdodge cancel their moves or shield cancel the move when they land. Why is his different?
I ask because his is less convenient to cancel in the air but more convenient to cancel on the ground. It might actually be better canceling with his way.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I never said they were unwinnable, I said they were really bad. I also knew that TL doesn't have to rely on arrows, but they help a lot (*cough* versus Marth, Falcon, MK, and 'Dorf *cough*).
Thor
Well-Known Member
moneer said:
Pick Fox or Falco. As Fox, hold down+b. As Falco, mash it. Problem solved.
Being a bit more serious, Fox and Falco [and Wolf, although in my opinion he's easily the hardest of the three to play] (and also Pit and Mario and maybe others I'm forgetting) have reflectors that can give projectile-heavy Links a headache. With Fox (or Wolf), you can just hold it down and reflect everything. While you DO have to kick Falco's out, he has lasers that can also mess up Link's projectiles and his landing game is very strong (3 jumps leaves him very mobile and able to jump around and avoid bombs, though Fox Illusion also is very good for this purpose).
It says you are a Bowser main - do you try to Royal Rampage (neutral B) through the arrows? You will take zero knockback, meaning the arrow won't kill you, and I believe his aerial version, the Galactic Crusher (aerial neutral B) has super armor as well, allowing you to just fall through bombs. If you can land with just enough time you can also often get your shield up.
If you are willing to practice it to learn it [or already can but don't], you could also time air-dodges/attacks with good timing so that you catch the bombs - then you have something to throw back at him.
If you have any videos of you facing him, I could offer some more detailed advice. This is just what I can say based on what you've told me.
PowerUp
Well-Known Member
Some suggestions now that I've had a chance to spend some time with Q:
Yoshi needs some approach options, as he gets shut down really hard by alot of characters. It would be a huge help if he could actually combo out of bAir and dAir. They are both hard to hit well since they don't link properly, and have no followup (you actually get punished on hit sometimes). Some super armor would help the egg roll alot too.
Pichu is...unusable. Intentional, perhaps?
Mario's nerfs are serious...his KO power is borderline low-tier, and the decreased damage stacking doesn't help. With the exception of matches where the cape is used heavily for gimping/projectiles, Luigi is completely superior, and Luigi is hardly high tier.
For both bros, firebrand/thunderhand are completely useless. There is NO CASE where either is the best option over all other available moves. Just remove them...it's disruptive when you throw them by accident.
Zelda is definitely OP. Her boxing is phenomenal, and she completely rules from a distance. She has instant mobility with the warp, and her recovery is very safe as long as you can aim. An approaching reflector even allows her to dominate the few characters who might try to fight her from a distance. Why is her boxing so strong when she is clearly designed to be a ranged fighter?
Bowser's armor is really hard to deal with online...maybe it is less of an issue offline. Perhaps the window for teching RRdown could be increased?
Falco's reflector is far too powerful. Not only does it shut down physical approaches, but it also sets up, and is totally safe to throw. It should either only reflect projectiles, or only hit physically (and even then, not drag the opponent back to Falco).
Charizard's upB is insane, and KOs <50% easily...he has too much longevity and power to possess that kind of early kill potential.
ZSS feels good, but she relies very heavily on uTilt spam to start combos. Maybe you could give her more variety by reducing its power and making her throws better setups (even dThrow can be DI'd to a safe distance easily).
Regular Samus power bombs are more or less unusable. Maybe if the hitbox was bigger or the explosion lasted a few extra frames. The new screw attack feels janky, but it works. I think her zAir may still be causing desyncs or even crashes. Missile canceling is hard due to her fall speed, but her improved melee makes up for it.
Snake should be able to do his air dodge grenade thing.
Captain Falcon's knee chaining into itself is ridiculous. Offline, he can 0-death a number of characters quite easily with it out of a chaingrab. Maybe you could make his dThrow techable, since it is so easy to land and follow up on?
Toon Link's boomerang KOing at 150% is not really necessary. He shouldn't be able to poke for KOs when he controls space so well.
Sonic completely destroys a number of characters, yet is destroyed by TL due to the polarizing nature of his high pressure/hitstun game. Maybe he should lose some combo potential in exchange for better KO moves.
DDD is dumb dumb dumb. Waddle Dee command is a cool idea, but the implementation is horrible. They just soak up EVERYTHING, and it makes for alot of horrible matchups.
I actually don't think the faster boxing makes that much of a difference for Link, but I tend to avoid boxing with him as much as possible anyway.
Yoshi needs some approach options, as he gets shut down really hard by alot of characters. It would be a huge help if he could actually combo out of bAir and dAir. They are both hard to hit well since they don't link properly, and have no followup (you actually get punished on hit sometimes). Some super armor would help the egg roll alot too.
Pichu is...unusable. Intentional, perhaps?
Mario's nerfs are serious...his KO power is borderline low-tier, and the decreased damage stacking doesn't help. With the exception of matches where the cape is used heavily for gimping/projectiles, Luigi is completely superior, and Luigi is hardly high tier.
For both bros, firebrand/thunderhand are completely useless. There is NO CASE where either is the best option over all other available moves. Just remove them...it's disruptive when you throw them by accident.
Zelda is definitely OP. Her boxing is phenomenal, and she completely rules from a distance. She has instant mobility with the warp, and her recovery is very safe as long as you can aim. An approaching reflector even allows her to dominate the few characters who might try to fight her from a distance. Why is her boxing so strong when she is clearly designed to be a ranged fighter?
Bowser's armor is really hard to deal with online...maybe it is less of an issue offline. Perhaps the window for teching RRdown could be increased?
Falco's reflector is far too powerful. Not only does it shut down physical approaches, but it also sets up, and is totally safe to throw. It should either only reflect projectiles, or only hit physically (and even then, not drag the opponent back to Falco).
Charizard's upB is insane, and KOs <50% easily...he has too much longevity and power to possess that kind of early kill potential.
ZSS feels good, but she relies very heavily on uTilt spam to start combos. Maybe you could give her more variety by reducing its power and making her throws better setups (even dThrow can be DI'd to a safe distance easily).
Regular Samus power bombs are more or less unusable. Maybe if the hitbox was bigger or the explosion lasted a few extra frames. The new screw attack feels janky, but it works. I think her zAir may still be causing desyncs or even crashes. Missile canceling is hard due to her fall speed, but her improved melee makes up for it.
Snake should be able to do his air dodge grenade thing.
Captain Falcon's knee chaining into itself is ridiculous. Offline, he can 0-death a number of characters quite easily with it out of a chaingrab. Maybe you could make his dThrow techable, since it is so easy to land and follow up on?
Toon Link's boomerang KOing at 150% is not really necessary. He shouldn't be able to poke for KOs when he controls space so well.
Sonic completely destroys a number of characters, yet is destroyed by TL due to the polarizing nature of his high pressure/hitstun game. Maybe he should lose some combo potential in exchange for better KO moves.
DDD is dumb dumb dumb. Waddle Dee command is a cool idea, but the implementation is horrible. They just soak up EVERYTHING, and it makes for alot of horrible matchups.
I actually don't think the faster boxing makes that much of a difference for Link, but I tend to avoid boxing with him as much as possible anyway.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
I like FireBrand and ThunderHand. You shouldn't be using them by accident; it's easy enough to quickly tap B for Fireballs.
I just want to see the minor GFX glitches of these moves addressed. Leave them alone otherwise.
Zelda is not that good at close range combat. You can shield her ranged hitboxes pretty easily, and once you get in close, you just have to watch out for Jab, D-Smash, and D-Tilt. You gotta play very aggressively against Zelda. One thing I noticed when you played my Zelda was that you didn't try to gimp me offstage or ledgehog me much at all -- those are Zelda's main weaknesses IMO.
Zelda is fine as-is. Only her two bugs need to be fixed: D-Tilt GFX on Slopes and No Cancel on Aerial Transform. I'd like to see her grabs improved a little... Zelda has had the worst grab in the game since vBrawl; she can't even shieldgrab properly. It would be nice if her D-Throw was less affected by D.I., too.
That was removed because it was causing some weird effects, which made Snake do some unintended things. Or so I read -- I never experienced any problems with it.
The Knee is very D.I.able; if Falcon follows up with another one, either you didn't D.I. or Falcon read you correctly. Fair game.
IMO, Falcon is one of the most "complete" Minus characters right now. He really doesn't need any changes at all.
The only Sonic change I want to see is the removal of his ability to instantly destroy destructible stage elements.
PowerUp
Well-Known Member
Bent, you do not have to play Falcon Defense Force every time someone has an opinion against him. For the record, you are wrong. You can DI, but you CANNOT DI to safety. Falcon must make an execution error. He has more than enough horizontal speed to catch you on reaction. No read is necessary for dThrow or knee followups - you even did it in some of our matches two days ago. Likewise, Zelda's boxing IS amazing. Her dTilt is an amazing tripping poke even without the extra minus hitbox, her dSmash is just as fast as yet stronger and safer than Mario's (one of the better dSmashes in the game), her uSmash connects with grounded opponents well unlike a number of uSmashes with anti-air utility (ZSS, Lucario, etc) and combos freely into the second hitbox at low percents. In our matches, you didn't even try to space her bAir, which is amazing and can also chain into itself. Overall, the issue is that her close range attacks are fast enough that after shield stun, you don't really have much time if any to start building pressure. She can just pound you until you make a mistake or something pokes. There is no weakness to exploit. The only chance you have to follow up offstage is while she is still in hitstun, which only speedsters have a chance at. Even then, if you don't make it in time, a bAir instantly stops your offense, and possibly gimps on top of that. Getting caught by teleport can also cost you a stock if you are careless or at a fairly high percent. Compare to Zelda's offstage followups - throwing double din's fire, dTilt, dAir, sparkles, or less commonly, fAir and fSmash with complete safety.
That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Please don't turn this into another five page point-by-point debate. It distracts from the bulk of my post of OPINIONS, which I took time to write for the BR to read.
That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Please don't turn this into another five page point-by-point debate. It distracts from the bulk of my post of OPINIONS, which I took time to write for the BR to read.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
There was one other person who complained about Zelda a while back, but I haven't seen anyone complain about Falcon on the forums at all (that I recall). It isn't EASY to land sweetspot Knees, you know; I've played Falcon hundreds of hours, and I only land the sweet Knees 30-50% of the time. Falcon's opponent shouldn't be able to DI to complete safety after getting sweet Knee'd; think of all the other characters that are likely to get a follow-up after a successful F-Air. Besides that, being able to chain sweetspotted Knees is one of the most awesome things in Minus (IMO). I don't think D-Throw should be tech-able, either.
Another reason I think Zelda and Falcon are fine as-is is because Glyph, Kienamaru, owo, and one of my local crew take them both down pretty easily. Gold_TSG thrashes my Falcon as DK, a character you'd think Falcon would make into Knee fodder.
Does anyone else have any problems with Falcon or Zelda?
Go after the top-tiers first, please...
Another reason I think Zelda and Falcon are fine as-is is because Glyph, Kienamaru, owo, and one of my local crew take them both down pretty easily. Gold_TSG thrashes my Falcon as DK, a character you'd think Falcon would make into Knee fodder.
Does anyone else have any problems with Falcon or Zelda?
Go after the top-tiers first, please...
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Vauss
Active Member
I think DDD is pretty fair for the most part, he's a giant target that gets smacked very easily, and is fairly easy to take care of once you get through the army and start hitting him around. My big complaint is that his minions will hurt you even when you hit them. It makes sense that he can hit them into you, but I don't think you should be punished for hitting them