Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!

[NEWB]

Part of that is just being a counterpick though.

I mean make the hitboxes and hurt boxes more consistent but there is no reason to just change an mu just for because.

Whether or not each character should be able to safely clang them away isn't clear to me because on one hand matchups but the other is that even of everyone can clang them away safely and easily, that doesn't make the mu more in their favor.

 

[Thor]

Part of that is just being a counterpick though.

I mean make the hitboxes and hurt boxes more consistent but there is no reason to just change an mu just for because.

Whether or not each character should be able to safely clang them away isn't clear to me because on one hand matchups but the other is that even of everyone can clang them away safely and easily, that doesn't make the mu more in their favor.

It just makes the MU less out of their favor.

MK is a swords character, so it's bizarre that he can't just cut the arrows in half like Marth or Ike can. Or else it's bizarre that people can cut the arrows in half at all.

I see where you're coming from with Captain Falcon and Ganondorf but I feel like picking those characters comes somewhat close to a hard counter on FD [closest thing Minus has] (it's certainly a counter [and here I'm think on vBrawl MU charts, where -4 = [close to] unwinnable, -3 = hard counter, -2 = counter, -1 = disadvantaged, 0 = even, and opposite for the other side]). Now then, if Minus devs want there to be counters in Minus, then this should be left as is. Btu if Minus devs don't want MUs that can almost force someone to pick another character, there should be an adjustment. 'Dorf/MK/CF would still have to spend time poking at arrows, and unlike Falco or Marth their pokes aren't as fast/they don't have quick follow-up attacks that would cover them as well (in my opinion), but I do see where you are coming from.

Also for what it's worth, I think Lucario counters/is well-advantaged against Falco, but I don't think any change is needed, beyond possible a bair that KOs better for Falco (Which I want even if it's not for a specific MU, at the expense of a lower KBG fair). So I don't think counters are bad, but I don't know how much I like the idea of hard counters, and this MU, especially with a few tweaks to TL and CF, would start to look like a hard counter (the dair JC being readded is one thing that is very bad for CF, since it makes gimping CF's recovery even easier).

 

[Bent 00]

Yow, Concept's Pit thrashed my Zelda just now. I didn't know Pit gets free grabs out of Angel Ring. :/

Anyone got any advice for fighting 3.Q Pit?

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Rest

 

[NEWB]

If your zelda, I'd imagine it's rough if pit knows how to stay away from her hitboxes. His arrows are a bit too fast to reflect when used with proper situations. Maybe use dins fire and nuetral B more? I'd imagine he gets in her face well, so do her dtilt and dsmash. Your gonna have to learn to use her own hitboxes as well her distant ones.

 

[Bent 00]

I haven't fought any really good Pits or Sheiks until today. Just gotta learn their tricks, I guess.

Does anyone besides Pit (not counting Bowser) have a such a safe Special that can consistently combo into a grab? That seems kinda cheap...

I know Kirby can use Inhale to get grabs, but he gives up getting a Copy Ability.

Pit's Angel Ring seems too good. That's my first impression, anyway. Feel free to tell me why it's not...

 

[Gold_TSG]

I haven't fought any really good Pits or Sheiks until today. Just gotta learn their tricks, I guess.

Does anyone besides Pit (not counting Bowser) have a such a safe Special that can consistently combo into a grab? That seems kinda cheap...

I know Kirby can use Inhale to get grabs, but he gives up getting a Copy Ability.

Pit's Angel Ring seems too good. That's my first impression, anyway. Feel free to tell me why it's not...

You are not alone. I brought that up with the BR the other day, actually.

 

[Thor]

Pit's Angel Ring seems too good. That's my first impression, anyway. Feel free to tell me why it's not...

You can jump it, roll behind it, and then begin to bait it. Also, from my experience the shield-cancel was removed (grab cancel only) so it is punishable. If it's not, then they should make it grab-cancellable only, but you can SDI it too so that the grab misses. I don't personally think it's a problem (if it's grab-cancellable only), but I am also somewhat used to dealing with Angel Ring, which may explain my bias.

 

[NEWB]

It is shield cancelable and grab cancelable.

This actually came up in a thread here recently guys. I'm surprised you guys overlooked the debate. The problem people had with is that it was safe on whiff and it was a mixup tool that always was favorable to pit. The move also doesn't require much dedication cuz the shield cancel. It sorta ended when I suggested it become grab cancelable only so it can be less safe on whiff and have some risk.

You can DI out of the grab but if pit is close enough and cancels into grab sooner, you can't avoid the grab.

 

[Thor]

It is shield cancelable and grab cancelable.

This actually came up in a thread here recently guys. I'm surprised you guys overlooked the debate. The problem people had with is that it was safe on whiff and it was a mixup tool that always was favorable to pit. The move also doesn't require much dedication cuz the shield cancel. It sorta ended when I suggested it become grab cancelable only so it can be less safe on whiff and have some risk.

You can DI out of the grab but if pit is close enough and cancels into grab sooner, you can't avoid the grab.

If you can SDI like a maniac Pit never gets the grab, but that would mean you foresaw it but had no way to avoid it, i.e. landing trap.

I never even see the shield-cancel used, so if they just remove the shield-cancel, I think this move would be fine. And even if people think we should do more, let's take small steps instead of pissing someone off with giving Pit [or just his Angel Ring] the Ivysaur/ROB/soon-to-be-Link treatment.

 

[NEWB]

I don't really think much else needs to be done.

My only other issue is that air side b true combos with another aerial which can lead to earlier deaths. I also think he can use this move multiple times in the air, which he shouldn't IMO.

 

[Thor]

I thought the full glide was once per airtime already, if not then does that allow for infinite recovery???

 

[The Concept]

......It's shield cancellable?
....This is news...

 

[NEWB]

....Have I been around for that much longer? This has been a thing since before even the beta. This is an age old thing or at least it feels like it is.

The only thing that would surprise me is if it lost the shield cancel without my knowing.

 

[The Concept]

Reading this pains my heart.
Why do you want to change Pit?
The boy has wings, he's made to fly around the stage. Why do you want to clip his wings?

 

[NEWB]

Isn't he supposed to be handicapped with his flying?

Since he can go up with side b, that makes it better than his upb. Isn't that stupid?

 

[Tybis]

Since he can go up with side b, that makes it better than his upb. Isn't that stupid?

That he has a better recovery option? That isn't necessarily dumb. He can use upB afterwards sideB too, so they aren't exclusive.

Why do you want to clip his wings?

hehe get it cuz it's a metaphor but it can be taken literally in this context hehe ok I'll shuddap

 

[The Concept]

Ninja'd by Tybis.

 

[NEWB]

I don't see how doing upb after sideb is a point. You can also do sideb after sideb to my knowledge. Other characters that have infinite sideb recovery go only left and right, and they can't attack cancel their sideb usually.

 

[The Concept]

AirSide B isn't infinite. Trust me, if it was we would have had this conversation as soon as 3.5 came out.
The attack itself is, but the gliding does end.

 

[NEWB]

Yeah. That's what I am talking about. You can sideb and sideb again. I don't think it's that successive though, but I need to look at it again.

 

[The Concept]

I can jump, AirSideB, hold B to glide, and from that point until the glide ends, I can AirSideB again to strike, but not continue the glide. Pressing it again only attacks, as compared to the initial press that starts the glide.

 

[NEWB]

What if you cancel the attack with a different attack? Can you sideb glide afterwards then?

 

[The Concept]

I don't think so. I'll get up and try right now.

No. You can AirSideB attack, the AirSideB glide sparkles appear, but you can't really go anywhere but down lol

 

[Gold_TSG]

I think the best thing to do to angel ring is make it a fixed distance of travel with less range than it currently has access to. Out of a run, he can pretty much cover half of FD with it, and because it's fast, it is almost always a surprise. I don't think it needs to have anything else touched (except MAYBE remove the shield cancel so he dedicates to it kinda), but the distance gain is too much for a free grab. You can SDI all you want, but all he has to do is grab sooner, and if you shield it, you're basically locked in your shield until he grabs you.