Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!

[mozzery]

The only reason I didn't fix ROB's fair was because I was waiting for people to say he was still OP so they wouldn't think I was nerfing on bias. In the "foolish rebuild" I had his fair chaining twice. No more and no less without rotor arm. It's not that hard really.

As a user of ROB I personally would be more than happy for you to get rid of his fair chaining as long as you gave him back his projectile game and jumps from a few patches ago, but I know that not all ROB's would agree with that. For me it's not that I think Link is unbeatable but that I believe that his combination of adequate boxing, amazing projectiles, and kill pressure makes him a much better competitive pick than a lot of other characters that otherwise could see use. I do not think I've talked to anyone who thinks that Link needed anything more to put him in the upper half of viable characters before this patch and that the precious development time that the devs have should have been spent on making characters who are obviously in a worse place than Link, (i.e. a majority of the cast in a VAST majorities opinion) into more viable competitive characters. You guys only have so many people working on this game, and in my humble opinion it could have been used more wisely than buffing Link and nerfing Ness, regardless of how easy said changes were to implement.

 

[Bent 00]

The only reason I didn't fix ROB's fair was because I was waiting for people to say he was still OP so they wouldn't think I was nerfing on bias. In the "foolish rebuild" I had his fair chaining twice. No more and no less without rotor arm. It's not that hard really.

R.O.B.'s F-Air chains being so difficult for certain characters (like Captain Falcon) to get out of is one of the things I dislike most about the robot. Does any other F-Air in the game chain that well?

 

[Xaudio]

I wouldn't mind ROB's laser if it fizzled out after half the distance of Battlefield. That would be a terrible design choice, however. If you take away the properties that give a move its utility, then you basically take away the move altogether and change the character radically if you don't outright break them. TL's game revolves around his trap arrows. You would have to give him a VERY strong buff to keep him at his current level, but why trade arrows for better physicals or more direct power on projectiles? We already have lots of strong boxers and direct projectile characters. We only have two or three trap characters, and of them, TL is the only one that sees alot of play. I'd rather keep him as the unique character he is. If you're having trouble fighting him, give Mario, Lucario, Fox, ROB, Pit, and ZSS a try. It's really not that hard to deal with: .

__

This video shows abosolutely nothing, in all honesty. He put down maybe 5 traps ALL GAME. and it wasn't because you were not letting him. When you were off the stage, he should be laying traps and he wasn't. It was pretty clear that this TL does NOT play a trap style game. Video seems insignificant to me.

 

[Thor]

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This video shows abosolutely nothing, in all honesty. He put down maybe 5 traps ALL GAME. and it wasn't because you were not letting him. When you were off the stage, he should be laying traps and he wasn't. It was pretty clear that this TL does NOT play a trap style game. Video seems insignificant to me.

Well then, let PowerUp fight me or Lightning and we'll see what the video evidence shows - while I don't think Lightning or I recorded them, we did the mirror masters a while back and ended up perfectly even (3-3, I won the first set 2-1 but offered a runback right away and lost 2-1), and most of our games took 5-6 minutes because traversing the battlefield was kind of hellish for either of us at any given point. I'm pretty sure I concluded in game 3 of the first set that boomerang should be my primary KO option. I also have no idea how much time I spent throwing my boomerang or dtilting away some of his traps.

But his traps game is really strongest on FD. It's strong on SV if you can set them up on the platform properly, but that takes time and relief from pressure. It's also strong on Metal Cavern, but TL's arrows are not really that effective on large stages [New Pork City] unless the character in question doesn't have an efficient way to traverse over them (if Captain Falcon's Falcon Kick moved over or clanked with them properly he wouldn't be an example, or if Raptor Boost went through them [I believe it doesn't], but Captain Falcon and Ike are two characters that really don't like carefully placed arrows on those stages). If you're having trouble with Toon Link's traps, you should probably try to take him to Battlefield or Lylat, especially if your character is short enough that they aren't hit by arrows as they walk under Lylat's platforms. Delfino is also a great CP because the platforms don't lend themselves to making arrows a problem as well as Battlefield does. There are some other stages that make his traps less of a headache if you're playing a character who lacks the tools to quickly and effectively deal with them.

Also, Falco is super good against a traps-heavy TL - you can dtilt them, kick at them with reflector to make them yours (though they will clank out if there are two in the same spot, but that also limits the area covered by the traps), and he can also just jump over them. You can also shoot lasers at them if they're camping that hard. He does lose the advantages of being able to Falco Phantasm -> JC Usmash in this MU though.

 

[PowerUp]

__

This video shows abosolutely nothing, in all honesty. He put down maybe 5 traps ALL GAME. and it wasn't because you were not letting him. When you were off the stage, he should be laying traps and he wasn't. It was pretty clear that this TL does NOT play a trap style game. Video seems insignificant to me.

Try your luck and see if you can do better. If TL is broken, you should be able to beat my nerfed Mario.

 

[NEWB]

No one is saying he is broken. He just has unnecessary power that doesn't promote interesting game play. When you can set five traps onstage you aren't gonna take the time and put them all in great spots. You may do that for two or maybe three but you are going to just throw the rest anywhere else because you can. A good toon link shouldn't actually waste time setting up that many arrows but since he can, he may try to. That is precisely why he should lose two arrow traps. If a good TL shouldn't use that many trap arrows, then he should lose a couple trap arrows so that he is forced to play better.

 

[Kien]

But you just said you never played a good TL Newb. To how can you say what one may try to do? I haven't seen a really good TL player yet, and I've played the mains of nearly everyone who is active here. Now I'm not a proof proof proof kind of person, but TL isn't holding excess power. His jabs are still in the slower and weaker half of the roster, he's floaty and easy to combo, his KO moves are endlaggy outside of boomerang, and he gets outranged fairly easy. If he were to lose boomerang he'd have no ranged KO options. With his good KO moves being his aerials barring bair and nair, smashes, uthrow, utilt, and the more situational diagonal tilt low, and dthrow he's in a pretty decent spot. You could say that light arrows can KO, but those are nowhere near as easy to land or predict.

Every true projectile character (people with multiple projectiles) have at least one that KOs. Link has Arrows and bombs, ROB has laser and Gyro, Samus has Charge Beam? and Super Missiles, TL has boomerang. If anything is excess on TL, it's the interrupt timer on his nair and dtilt. Those two moves allow him to be less skillful and he can spam them both for excess shield pressure from pokes.

 

[Bent 00]

I'd like to see Toon Link's max number of active trap arrows reduced to 3.

C. Falcon and 'Dorf need better ways of clearing those trap arrows.

 

[NEWB]

MK does too

 

[Thor]

I'd like to see Toon Link's max number of active trap arrows reduced to 3.

C. Falcon and 'Dorf need better ways of clearing those trap arrows.

MK does too

Revert 'Dorf's utilt and make it clear arrows. 'Dorf now does better.

For Falcon, either make Raptor Boost ignore them (I would be cool with that), make his detection cause him to uppercut them (I'd be cool with that), and make Falcon Kick react consistently (there are times when I kick over one, clank another, then do the kick and just get hit - either make it clank, go over, or be unsafe, but not all 3 at once depending on factors I can't really determine please). If Falcon Kick can clear or go over them, boom done.

MK can fly over them, BUT his grab game is great, his aerials are all unsafe (at last check) and TL gets miles out of forcing him into the air. Just making either dtilt or dsmash NOT transcendent priority (allowing it to clank projectiles) would be an AWESOME buff for MK. Boom.

That's my input for the devs in helping these characters deal with arrows. If Ike needs help, perhaps adding a lower hitbox to his jab to help him clank out arrows would be enough for him. Most other characters can deal with arrows fine. I think most other characters have fast enough dtilts/dsmashes/options with enough disjoint to clear arrows that arrows can be dealt with relatively safely. It affects these 3/4 the worst.

 

[Tybis]

We only have two or three trap characters, and of them, TL is the only one that sees alot of play. I'd rather keep him as the unique character he is.

So... because he's a popular character, he shouldn't undergo any redesigning to have more counterplay?

Hmm... speaking of trap characters, the main problem I think with Tink's arrow traps is that arrows don't really have adequate risk for the control they grant. Consider this;

For Snake, he can litter the field with all sorts of explosives, yet most of them can backfire on Snake if he's playing foolishly. Grenades can be tossed back, Snake can be tossed into his own mines.
For DDD, his minion control requires constant input and monitoring to see any real benefit (unless you get a lucky random Gordo, but that's more of a projectile, not really a trap in itself). Recall that Dees and Doos can also simply be swatted away.
Then we have Toon Link, who's able to toss around static traps that have a constant, non-friendly-fire hitboxes that linger around without disappearing. It's possible to clear arrow traps away, but since they're so low to the ground, they require specific attacks from most characters, while a few have a slightly more difficult time.

 

[PowerUp]

Let me add some context to this debate.

Xaudio is a member of my crew along with DIJoe. X almost exclusively plays rushdown characters competitively. A few days ago, I showed him a video of Sonic destroying my Bowser, and he basically decided he wanted to play Sonic as well. As some of you know, Sonic hard counters a decent portion of the cast, and is an unpleasant matchup for most of what remains due to his extreme mobility and large degree of safety while attacking. Eventually I got tired of three hours of Sonic super combos and brought out Toon Link because his traps are anti-rushdown. I stomped his Sonic, which is what brought him here. This isn't about TL's arrows being unbalanced, which was never even considered in our group until he stopped Sonic's rampage. It's about taking the cheap way out and calling for a nerf to make a specific matchup easier.

I'm all for rebalancing, but "make it easier for a character I like" isn't how you go about deciding what needs nerfed and what doesn't. Counter picks are a thing. If you think arrows are broken by nature, prove it and use them to beat my top three or even top five.

 

[NEWB]

Power, you aren't the authority that determines what needs nerfs and what doesn't based whether or not you have a problem with it.

Not to say you don't have a point. Matchups are indeed a thing but Tybis brings up a good point. The other trap characters have risk and reward with their traps but toon link has no risk at all with instant reward, control. Pichu is also a trap character but he... sucks and his can be beaten out by anything, while TL arrows require specific moves and halts the momentum of the foe by forcing an action out of them. Zard also has stealth rock but they aren't consistent in their positions and aren't always helpful. They can also be removed with ease.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

My opinion on toon links stage-controlling projectiles are that with the combination of hard to reach hurtboxes that some chars have a problem reaching + biggish hitboxes + the reward of tempo when the opponent touches it (think chess. If the opponent is shocked by electricity for 3 secs, thats 3 more secs of setting them up, getting the better postion and dmging them), and the pressure of dealing with the opponent in all of this is that they're dumby-hard to deal with.
my opinion is to increase the hurtboxes and shrink the hitboxes, they should be there, but shouldnt be like trying to grab a marble inside a ball of needles.

 

[Gold_TSG]

PowerUp, you really shouldn't be going on like you're the best person on this forum, saying people need to beat your best to prove a point. It makes you look arrogant, and doesn't help your case whatsoever. People are putting out good points to both sides, and this mentality of being an authority in balancing just doesn't fit you.

 

[NEWB]

He wasn't really talking himself up that much.

 

[Kien]

The other trap characters have risk and reward with their traps but toon link has no risk at all with instant reward, control. Zard also has stealth rock but they aren't consistent in their positions and aren't always helpful. They can also be removed with ease.

This is just untrue Newb. TL's arrows are negated by reflectors, including mirror shield, and while people like snake have the possibility to backfire on him, look at Snake's damage output with his. He's looking at nearly 20%+ per trap while TL gets about 6% in most cases unless you have enough time to charge. It literally takes all of TL's traps combined to equal one of Snake's explosives, not to mention snake can spam grenades just to get motion sensor bombs, a no charge kill projectile, and heavy hitting attacks. Snake is stronger than Ike, has better traps and projectiles than TL, better stage control than Link, and grabs on a ROB useful level. I really don't think he should be brought up at all in comparison when talking about someone difficult to fight.

Regarding stealth rocks, those things are much more of a pain than TL's arrows, not only can Zard do any number of attacks to lead into them where TL has to dthrow, dash attack, dair gust, or stilt low to slide into his, but they can combo into themselves and then into Zard's crazy damaging aerials. They also unlike anything TL can throw out keep his opponent at bay for his blast burn which doesn't even need mentioning.

 

[PowerUp]

For Snake, he can litter the field with all sorts of explosives, yet most of them can backfire on Snake if he's playing foolishly. Grenades can be tossed back, Snake can be tossed into his own mines.
For DDD, his minion control requires constant input and monitoring to see any real benefit (unless you get a lucky random Gordo, but that's more of a projectile, not really a trap in itself). Recall that Dees and Doos can also simply be swatted away.
Then we have Toon Link, who's able to toss around static traps that have a constant, non-friendly-fire hitboxes that linger around without disappearing. It's possible to clear arrow traps away, but since they're so low to the ground, they require specific attacks from most characters, while a few have a slightly more difficult time.

Funny how you didn't mention any of the advantages waddles and nades have over arrows. I'll fill in for your bias:

Waddle Dees and Doos have a constant hitbox that doesn't go away when you touch one. They will often "clang" with the attacks meant to dispatch them, allowing another to attack freely for a few frames. When used properly to attack, they do much more damage than an arrow. Even if you do manage to swat one away, you have to deal with extended hitboxes, giving DDD precious frames to start setting up again, or even attack. Finally, if you manage to break through, DDD has a much better physical camp than TL with bAir and throws. Where are the cries to limit a Waddle Dees to 2?

Grenades do carry the risk of self-damage, but you also have significantly greater reward as compensation. Grenades do as much damage as several arrows combined, poke shields, and can be used skillfully to kill very early. Even simply holding onto a grenade is a powerful threat that can KO a mid-high damage attacking opponent, or break the combo of one with low damage. Their actual utility as a trap is just as good, and you are encouraged to spam them in order to pull the even more powerful and dangerous proximity mines. Between grenades, proximity mines, land mines, and C4, snake can get four or more deadly hurt boxes on the field relatively quickly, and you don't have the luxury of swatting them away with low powered tilts, jabs, and walking power shields. Oh, and like DDD, his CQC is much harder to deal with when you do get close due to the power and range of his jabs and tilts.

Edit: Kien makes good points about Snake and Charizars too, read above.

PowerUp, you really shouldn't be going on like you're the best person on this forum, saying people need to beat your best to prove a point. It makes you look arrogant, and doesn't help your case whatsoever. People are putting out good points to both sides, and this mentality of being an authority in balancing just doesn't fit you.

I didn't say I was the best on the forum. Way to put words in my mouth. I said that if the arrows are broken, you should be able to beat most if not all of my characters by spamming them. Why would this be a problem, unless you don't actually think they are broken? To his credit, Thor challenged me, giving us the chance to put our money where our mouths are, which is worth more than a hundred of these posts. Once we play, I'm going to post the matches so that everyone can make an informed decision.

The only mentally I've had is "proof over theorycraft". I suppose that must sound so arrogant when you really want a nerf for personal reasons, but that is how balance is done in the game industry. It's unbelievably hypocritical of certain people here to call Kein out for playing favorites with Link's buffs, then turn around and ask for baseless nerfs for a character they don't like in the very same thread. This is disappointing.

 

[NEWB]

I like toon link. I don't like seeing characters get more than they need.

Very good that you pointed out that stuff about reflecting them. It's not like I forgot that. I was just saying that they were safer comparatively because they have no friendly fire.

I would also too link camps better than DDD cuz TL link has faster attacks and is a harder target to hit with throws that are just as good as DDDs. DDD has some invincibility but TL has range and linger on his grab plus strong throws.

Also, when smacking away a waddle, you are going to be just as safe because you will be out of range do DDD. You should not be smacking them away when close to DDD unless you are trying to delay your hitbox with hitlag to mess up your foe,

Snakes traps kill himself too. He doesn't get greater compensation. I haven't seen one snake that can avoid his own traps properly and any opponent can take advantage of his traps better than he can.

I haven't played a good Zard that abuses stealth rock like that. Sounds like he can do those things but I haven't seen them in practice so I'm not saying anything about it. They can still be swatted away effortlessly.

You still haven't given any reason why TL should keep five trap arrows when he has a boomerang and bombs.

 

[Thor]

I didn't say I was the best on the forum. Way to put words in my mouth. I said that if the arrows are broken, you should be able to beat most if not all of my characters by spamming them. Why would this be a problem, unless you don't actually think they are broken? To his credit, Thor challenged me, giving us the chance to put our money where our mouths are, which is worth more than a hundred of these posts. Once we play, I'm going to post the matches so that everyone can make an informed decision.

The only mentally I've had is "proof over theorycraft". I suppose that must sound so arrogant when you really want a nerf for personal reasons, but that is how balance is done in the game industry. It's unbelievably hypocritical of certain people here to call Kein out for playing favorites with Link's buffs, then turn around and ask for baseless nerfs for a character they don't like in the very same thread. This is disappointing.

For the record, I may be significantly worse than you (it depends), but something be broken doesn't mean it's an auto-win - Meta Knight's Mach Tornado in vBrawl is a great example of something that can be considered broken (some characters almost literally can ONLY shield it, and it can be very safe with the weaving you can do), but Meta Knight doesn't win every round he plays, because there are people who are better than them and make reads and powershield grab it (which can be insanely difficult) and can avoid it effectively. If I don't beat you [or you wreck me], it doesn't necessarily mean TL's arrows aren't broken, it could also mean I'm bad at TL (a distinct possibility), lag happened, or that you're simply very well-versed at dealing with them. And if I do win [or even wreck you], it might not prove that they are broken, only that perhaps my TL is better than I thought, lag happened, or you've never faced that much arrow pressure, but you might simply adapt and keep your original stance.

My opinions: 2 arrows would be too little [in general and] unless their damage output was nearly doubled. If he goes down to 3 arrows, the damage output should be upgraded - if I'm not mistaken, an arrow does between 4 and 8%, which is quite low. 6-10% if he only gets 3 and 9 - 15% if he gets only 2 would be fair.

I said I'd face him in the hopes that people calm down about his arrows, since a match that was displayed already was insufficient, and I know that Lightning and I are somewhat arrow-heavy, so I figured that whoever won would probably prove the point most effectively if there's not horrible lag etc.

On a COMPLETELY different character, @Kienamaru

When I said Falco's fair isn't a good KO tool, I should be more specific: the thing has good knockback that doesn't really belong on it (KOing about as well as dair offstage - same percent range) [but it's no knee smash or ganon fair - If Falco had versions of those moves with the current KB of his bair he'd be much happier], and one can fair -> fair -> fair if there's no DI to knock someone offstage. But fair sticks Falco out awkwardly, making his hitboxs prone and begging for some attack to hit him, and it has the highest lag among his aerials (I guess SH uair might have more, but if you're using that you probably aren't playing Falco properly). Falco's fair seems more often than not to just get him hit, and even when it doesn't, it doesn't really feel that reliable - Falco often feels better off just dairing someone back to earth and looking for a smash, or jump to turn around and FF bair. Bair may be weaker, but it is significantly safer, even though one has to wait longer for it to KO. Bash talks about Jigglypuff's moveset being outclassed by a few moves; in this case I think bair completely outclasses nair, because it's safer, can still hit hard, not SDIable/susceptible to ending before landing, and it doesn't stick Falco's hurtbox way out. I don't know what to do with Falco fair, but if it's supposed to be a KO move, I think bair should take that role (and bair could be a bit weaker or same strength as current fair as it's much more reliable). As a completely un-thought-out suggestion, maybe fair pops them up for followups?

 

[PowerUp]

I haven't played a good Zard that abuses stealth rock like that. Sounds like he can do those things but I haven't seen them in practice so I'm not saying anything about it. They can still be swatted away effortlessly.

You still haven't given any reason why TL should keep five trap arrows when he has a boomerang and bombs.

Sneak has a great Charizard and makes good use of SR as part of his game. Try a few matches next time you're both in the chat.

Also, TL gets four arrows, not five. The reason I gave is that the arrows have a completely different use than bombs (poking, breaking reflectors) and boomerangs (control airspace, KO @ high %). You use arrows to break/start combos, and it is something he NEEDS in order to compete with any of the speedsters in the game, as well as many of the power characters.

 

[NEWB]

Toon link has fast attacks and most of his aerials all do start combos, so I have to disagree in that regard. Fair doesn't combo but it smacks foes away and it's a kill move. Dair can combo and it KOs. Since it has come down to just opinion I don't we are gonna be convincing anyone of anything.

Thor makes a great point about the arrows. If he gets fewer arrows, they should be just a little stronger in terms of damage if they can really do 4 percent.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I didn't say I was the best on the forum. Way to put words in my mouth. I said that if the arrows are broken, you should be able to beat most if not all of my characters by spamming them. Why would this be a problem, unless you don't actually think they are broken? To his credit, Thor challenged me, giving us the chance to put our money where our mouths are, which is worth more than a hundred of these posts. Once we play, I'm going to post the matches so that everyone can make an informed decision.

The only mentally I've had is "proof over theorycraft". I suppose that must sound so arrogant when you really want a nerf for personal reasons, but that is how balance is done in the game industry. It's unbelievably hypocritical of certain people here to call Kein out for playing favorites with Link's buffs, then turn around and ask for baseless nerfs for a character they don't like in the very same thread. This is disappointing.

I'm calling you arrogant based on the way you talk in your posts. (This is also why I say you seem like you're calling yourself the best. You don't just say "come beat me and prove it" without sounding cocky.) It's not exactly coming off as very respectful to others. I really don't care how the debate is going at this point, cause your argument otherwise is for TL to face off against characters that otherwise naturally beat him. I've stated how I felt about the arrows, and my opinion will not change. TL isn't impossible to beat, and no one ever said he was, only that he is unfun to play against.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to turn this into a fight. This just a simple debate on opinions, and I want it to remain civil.

 

[NEWB]

He's not that unfun to play against. I haven't really played a good one though.

 

[Thor]

It's really irritating to fight him without a reflector or GREAT jab/dtilt to poke away arrows - fighting him as Falco is no big deal, and Marth can manage ok, but fighting him as MK or Captain Falcon is very very annoying.