Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!

[NEWB]

I have no input on Mario fireballs. Given how well they disrupt, I never saw an issue.

Link is being addressed next patch. Link will be losing some unnecessary next patch apparently. As for his grounded upb, it easily punished by shielding. Not saying it won't be looks t though, cuz I don't know.

Considering that TL has bombs that can trap now, I wouldn't be against lowering the onstage arrows to three. I mean, what does he need that many for anyway? His attacks in the air are very fast, and his grabs are really good. I'm not saying he's too good but he also has some unnecessary power I believe.

Can you provide vids or replays of your Ike main? Saying he's good without evidence other than his jab isn't proving your point. If it's doing 40 damage to you, you need to be DIing or something.

Have you played a good ness? The tiers for minus are not very representative of competitive play as the player base is small.

If you have problems with Roy, you need to learn how to space with him. His power lies in the middle of his sword, not the tip like Marth. I would assume that he is still work in progress though.

Pichu is...... They are trying to find his niche and playstyle. He is gonna need work.

 

[Tybis]

Considering that TL has bombs that can trap now, I wouldn't be against lowering the onstage arrows to three. I mean, what does he need that many for anyway? His attacks in the air are very fast, and his grabs are really good. I'm not saying he's too good but he also has some unnecessary power I believe.

If you have problems with Roy, you need to learn how to space with him. His power lies in the middle of his sword, not the tip like Marth. I would assume that he is still work in progress though.

TL is just... REALLY unfun to play against.

Speaking of Roy spacing, Dair tipper pops up, and can lead into itself. The spacing on it is very precise, but it's possible to Dair tipper > Dair tipper > Dair sweetspot. Looks neat. Tippers for Roy range from somewhat bad to situationally good.

 

[Xaudio]

I have no input on Mario fireballs. Given how well they disrupt, I never saw an issue.

Link is being addressed next patch. Link will be losing some unnecessary next patch apparently. As for his grounded upb, it easily punished by shielding. Not saying it won't be looks t though, cuz I don't know.

Considering that TL has bombs that can trap now, I wouldn't be against lowering the onstage arrows to three. I mean, what does he need that many for anyway? His attacks in the air are very fast, and his grabs are really good. I'm not saying he's too good but he also has some unnecessary power I believe.

Can you provide vids or replays of your Ike main? Saying he's good without evidence other than his jab isn't proving your point. If it's doing 40 damage to you, you need to be DIing or something.

Have you played a good ness? The tiers for minus are not very representative of competitive play as the player base is small.

If you have problems with Roy, you need to learn how to space with him. His power lies in the middle of his sword, not the tip like Marth. I would assume that he is still work in progress though.

Pichu is...... They are trying to find his niche and playstyle. He is gonna need work.

_______

We have a few vids of our Ike that we took Yesterday. The problem is, since the hit stun in Minus is increased, it makes DIing a tad more difficult. With Ike, If you jab cancel correctly, he can jab twice, cancel and then hold the a button and pretty much walk you across the stage jabbing you for a good 25-40%. Will try to get that Video up pretty soon.

We have a pretty decent Ness in our group. I'd like to see a "top tier" Ness player to open my eyes but from what I've seen, he lacks everything BUT approach. The FAir spam and spike is pretty much all he has (maybe a little neutral air as well).

Like I said, this new patch put Roy in a good place by giving him a semi reliable approach in his overB. I like the spot his is in.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I can easily show you a good Ness personally, as he's one of my better chars.

I agree that TL is a bit on the strong side, and considering all he can do, even 3 trap arrows is a bit much. I'd prefer seeing them down to two.

Mario's balls are good where they are because his aerial double fireball approach can be pretty obnoxious, and can pretty easily rack up damage. His combo game is too strong to warrant too much power on them.

 

[NEWB]

Arrows can be brought down to two or they can nerf his bomb pull a bit. I would also day he isn't very fun to fight but I haven't ever played a good TL.

 

[PowerUp]

Two arrows is WAY too much of a nerf. They are what make him a viable alternative to regular Link. Learn to play around them. Being able to set bombs is not a justification for reducing arrows either.

 

[Xaudio]

Like I said, 3 Arrows would be fine. He currently has way too much control. I do think that taking it down to 2 may be a little much.

 

[Thor]

First time posting. Longtime player.

- Link is SOOOO strong. Probably top 3 in game. Did not need any sort of buff.
- Toon Link also very strong. Camp game with traps is obnoxious. Did not need additional buffs.
- Its clear that no one on the boards playing a good Ike. Have an Ike main in my group and hes HELLA strong. Honestly did not need buffs. Jab so good.
- Fast Falco lasers make him suuuper bitch to play against (but i guess that how brawl always was >,<)
- Eevn though Ness is considered D tier, he got nerfed. #logic

- Like i said. up Mario fireballs to 4%. Needs a little more pressure. Other than that, i think he is one of the most balanced characters in the game.
- Link Waaay too strong atm. Lower range on grounded upB. Slightly lower damage on projectiles (stacks damage way too easy for how much kill power he has).
- Toon Link needs a little toned down. Maybe take total traps allowed out down by 1. Approaching him is a nightmare.
- Being that Fox is one of my mains, I'd LIKE to see some buffs. But honestly he's in an alright spot. He kinda lacks options. Maybe up the damage on his laser to give him some sort of "defensive pressure."
- The added special No Sympathy crap to Ike is pretty crazy. He was really strong without all of that. If you have a decent Ike player, he can put on 40% damage just with 1 jab combo. Stacks damage way too easy to receive a boost to kill pressure.
- I always thought Sonic was Extremely underpowered. But then i saw a video of my friend playing a against a good Sonic. Blew my mind. Now i've been maining him for a few days and believe hes in a pretty good spot. All rush down. Nothing else.

Thats what I got so far. May think of some other things. Hopefully will start posting more.

- Xaudio <3

Toon Link should probably have just 3-4 trap arrows, personal opinion. His other stuff is fine though (not sure about new speed, need to test that more).
If you don't know what SDI is, learn about it - it will save you a TON of damage against Ike. Also Ike may be good but I remember he used to be absolutely SLAUGHTERED by slow-laser Falco - not sure how fast-laser Falco does but I don't think it's much worse and might be better.
Agree about Ness, at least sort of. If Ness had a moderately safe recovery (think 2.x.6 Falco), he'd probably be top tier because his onstage game is so strong. Also, he has bair. But I do disagree with the nerfs, from a tier perspective.
Link's grounded up+B isn't much of a problem in my opinion, I think boomerang and arrows do fine damage. Bombs might get a small nerf.
Toon Lik should probably have 3-4 trap arrows as said above.
Fox buffs? Maybe a harder to SDI uair (lower multiplier), of if they're generous, harder to SDI dair, but otherwise I think he's fine as well.

Again, with Ike, learn to SDI. Also, it's not hitstun but hitlag that affects DI [and longer hitlag = more time to SDI], and the hitstun on Ike's jab is really low anyway - yeah you can't airdodge out but you can certainly SDI out of range, up, or behind him. You could also try CCing the jab and powershielding (FYI, in vBrawl CCing DID exist, but all it did is reduce the hitstun a character took by (I believe it's) 33% - as an example, Olimar can powershield Falco's jab2 in vBrawl by holding down and once getting hit immediately holding shield, but can't do this without crouching - if this mechanic exists in Minus, you might try CCing Ike jab - can't test right now or I would and get back to you on it).

Sonic can actually play super defensive by just running away, and very randomly poking at his leisure. But his pressure game is also strong.

 

[NEWB]

I don't really like two arrows either. I'm mostly for three because a fourth is really unnecessary.

As for these arrows made to viable over link, link will be losing unnecessary power as kien said. This will warrant changes to characters that try to compete against him like TL cuz TL won't need as much to overcome link in next patch.

In this patch, all we can say is work around current stuff but looking onwards, you have look at the bigger picture.

How much would you say he needs power? Most of us like 3 or 4 it seems.

 

[mozzery]

Also first time poster but long time player in the same group as xaudio. I'm the Ike, I'm honestly not great with reflexes and rely on reads and technical skill with jab cancels to do anything. You are correct that SDI'ing through me has not been tried successfully much against me, but I have a LOT of practice dealing with people SDI'ing up out of Ike jab cancels and feel that for a lot of the cast that is not a viable option if the Ike is smart and follows up the SDI correctly. On other topics I'm also of the opinion that Toon Link probably would be fine with 3 arrows and Link was very unnecessarily buffed when most would agree he was already a perfectly viable competitive pick and that buffs should be more focused on characters that aren't competitive. I personally would like ROB's rushdown to be nerfed so that his projectile game with 2 tops/charged f smash could return but that is a personal preference for character design as opposed to griping over balance. Ideally I think that if it was possible to change the knockback on his f air so that it would be harder to chain it and give him back his extra jumps (or at least one of them) I'd personally like him a lot more. That way he keeps his high amount of options aerial style he had without making low % f air chains into death back as a staple of the character. That's just a personal preference for character direction though, as I feel that his kit is a little counter intuitive in that he's been pushed to be a more of a rushdown character with the changes made to him when he could clearly fill a different niche given his moveset.

Thank you for taking the time to read this long post, I apologize if I seem to ramble on, but I wanted to get some of my opinions out there.

 

[NEWB]

The reason why rob was changed that way is likely because they couldn't get his fair to do that. If they made his fair stronger and gave him more jumps, that would also give him power he doesn't need that would start breaking him again. Just my thoughts though.

Link wasn't buffed to make him better, but to normalize his moves to be on par with everyone else's. He was buffed and now he will be nerfed appropriately. That is how minus has always been.

 

[mozzery]

The reason why rob was changed that way is likely because they couldn't get his fair to do that. If they made his fair stronger and gave him more jumps, that would also give him power he doesn't need that would start breaking him again. Just my thoughts though.

Link wasn't buffed to make him better, but to normalize his moves to be on par with everyone else's. He was buffed and now he will be nerfed appropriately. That is how minus has always been.

My personal believe is that one should do buffs/nerfs in tandem with each other if you are dealing with a character that is already strong. If you want to buff an aspect of a character like Link who is already considered viable by I believe an overwhelming majority here, you should also instead of saying "we'll nerf him later to make up for this buff" it SHOULD BE, imo, "well, this buff has normalized his jab which in tandem with the rest of his kit makes him stronger than probably in the best interests of game balance. We need to do a nerf at the same time that is AT LEAST as big as this normalizing buff is to keep said balance". OR "you know, Link's already strong, and this makes him stronger, we need to look at the members of the cast who are clearly not on Link's level and work on them if we're going to make this adjustment to Link".

Also, I understand that it is probably hard to get Rob balanced with his fair, but as I said I think that it would be interesting to try to come up with a way to make him take advantage of his kit that revolves around using quick moves to knock away opponents, smart use of projectiles, and strategic play as opposed to the rushdown character that's projectiles are just used to finish off combos that seems to be the direction he's being taken in. I'm not saying it would be easy, and I understand the myriad of challenges in balancing in game such as this, just that it would be ideal in my eyes not to have ROB's identity be as a rushdown character.

 

[NEWB]

Minus doesn't really come off as having the man power to both buff and nerf someone in one go. This is partly because they aren't always looking to be finished with a character. They like throwing new concepts and new ideas out there to see how we react to them and they change the character around these new concepts to make them better ultimately.

 

[Thor]

For ROB fair, perhaps make it like vBrawl shuttle loop? Buff its damage output and raise its BKB by a lot, making it a powerful tool for KOing early if offstage somehow (bair?), but also lower the KBG a lot and make it that unless they DI terribly (or regardless of how they DI), it's a combo-finisher. It would still be much quicker and safer than nair (but much lower KBG = nair is better at high percents), and a VERY powerful get-out-of-my-face tool, but it wouldn't be juggling people to hell and back and hell again. This could possible allow ROB to zone better, but it would take away his obscene combo game in the air. (As for KBG, I'd have to do testing, but in my head, saying "Ganondor bair at 40% is this move on someone at 20%, but Ganondorf bair at 75% is this move at 120%" makes sense to me - no idea about that though, my scaling on Ganondorf's bair may be way off).

This is probably broken on a variety of levels that I don't realize, but it's an idea for the devs to consider.

 

[PowerUp]

How much would you say he needs power? Most of us like 3 or 4 it seems.

Toon Link should keep all four arrows. Removing one is nontrivial, and will only make TL campier. I've seen a few different strategies among the TL players around here regarding the ideal concentration of arrows, but most of the time, it is ideal to spread them out in order to allow TL to move around with some measure of insurance. TL relies on his projectiles very heavily to approach (maybe even more than Mario), since he can be overwhelmed in melee range by many of the strong characters. If the number of arrows are reduced, TL will have less space he is willing to move around in, and will have to camp even harder.

More importantly, a bad matchup like Sonic is not a justification for such a serious nerf (I don't advocate nerfing Olimar just because Luigi cannot approach). If we start making those kinds of decisions there will be no end to the rebalancing efforts (Sonic would need nerfed because of Bowser).

I've had no issues fighting TL with a variety of characters, and feel he is well balanced as he is now. There are other characters with obvious issues that should receive attention first.

Also, I understand that it is probably hard to get Rob balanced with his fair, but as I said I think that it would be interesting to try to come up with a way to make him take advantage of his kit that revolves around using quick moves to knock away opponents, smart use of projectiles, and strategic play as opposed to the rushdown character that's projectiles are just used to finish off combos that seems to be the direction he's being taken in. I'm not saying it would be easy, and I understand the myriad of challenges in balancing in game such as this, just that it would be ideal in my eyes not to have ROB's identity be as a rushdown character.

I agree that ROB is supposed to be a keepaway character. Objectively, I think he is the strongest character overall due to his safe approach with rotor cancels and powerful low% finishers. Take away the rotor cancel, and he should be pretty well balanced IMO. I am even fine with restoring a projectile buff as compensation.

 

[Gold_TSG]

To clarify, I only said how I personally felt about TL's arrow count based on my experiences fighting him. Firstly, if it went to 2, his draw speed could be restored to what it was. Second, he already has a lot of control with his bombs and boomerang on top of his arrows, and his combo game is far from weak, especially with his speed and aerial mobility. I just personally think he'd be fine with 2 traps instead of 3 or 4, since he's already pretty strong.

 

[PowerUp]

The arrows are used as traps. Draw speed is not relevant since you should be ground canceling them and only need the flinch to break/set up combos. The boomerang is used to control air space, and bombs are used for actually attacking.

If a TL nerf is on the table, and I think we need MUCH better justification than "he's not fun to fight with a few characters" (who isn't?), then nerf the boomerang. For some reason, it is a KO move around 150%. TL's projectiles are about controlling space and setting up an engagement, and probably don't need to have actual KO properties. The jab would also be a good candidate for a nerf since he is supposed to be keepaway and already has some pretty fast options to deal with approaches (nair, bair).

 

[Gold_TSG]

I wouldn't mind the arrows if they were on a timer for existing, like any other trap character. The fact that the arrows remain indefinitely unless targeted is what I consider an issue.

 

[PowerUp]

I wouldn't mind ROB's laser if it fizzled out after half the distance of Battlefield. That would be a terrible design choice, however. If you take away the properties that give a move its utility, then you basically take away the move altogether and change the character radically if you don't outright break them. TL's game revolves around his trap arrows. You would have to give him a VERY strong buff to keep him at his current level, but why trade arrows for better physicals or more direct power on projectiles? We already have lots of strong boxers and direct projectile characters. We only have two or three trap characters, and of them, TL is the only one that sees alot of play. I'd rather keep him as the unique character he is. If you're having trouble fighting him, give Mario, Lucario, Fox, ROB, Pit, and ZSS a try. It's really not that hard to deal with: .

 

[Kien]

- Mario fireballs should be upped by 1% per. Little too underwhelming now.- Eevn though Ness is considered D tier, he got nerfed. #logic
- Pichu nerfs. Once again. #Logic. Needs alot of work to be where the rest of the cast is.
As for what i think needs to happen:

- Like i said. up Mario fireballs to 4%. Needs a little more pressure. Other than that, i think he is one of the most balanced characters in the game.
- Link Waaay too strong atm. Lower range on grounded upB. Slightly lower damage on projectiles (stacks damage way too easy for how much kill power he has).
- Toon Link needs a little toned down. Maybe take total traps allowed out down by 1. Approaching him is a nightmare.
- Being that Fox is one of my mains, I'd LIKE to see some buffs. But honestly he's in an alright spot. He kinda lacks options. Maybe up the damage on his laser to give him some sort of "defensive pressure."
- The added special No Sympathy crap to Ike is pretty crazy. He was really strong without all of that. If you have a decent Ike player, he can put on 40% damage just with 1 jab combo. Stacks damage way too easy to receive a boost to kill pressure.
- I always thought Sonic was Extremely underpowered. But then i saw a video of my friend playing a against a good Sonic. Blew my mind. Now i've been maining him for a few days and believe hes in a pretty good spot. All rush down. Nothing else.
- Xaudio <3

Seems like you're no good against Link's, and that your Fox isn't that great either if Link is giving him trouble.
The Mario stuff has been considered.

Ike only gets that NS stuff if he gets in NS mode. If you're going against an Ike who crouch cancels jabs all the time you won't even see NS mode because Ike's first two jabs aren't using his sword.

It's a shame you thought Sonic was underpowered. It's the reason I haven't buffed him. I'm so far the best Sonic and I'd like to see how your friend's good Sonic uses him.

We have a pretty decent Ness in our group. I'd like to see a "top tier" Ness player to open my eyes but from what I've seen, he lacks everything BUT approach. The FAir spam and spike is pretty much all he has (maybe a little neutral air as well).

I've been picking up Ness and while I'm still bad with him, I can tell that he has everything except a good recovery. He's fast, has good pokes, great KO power, destructive combos, early situational KO moves, and a lot of other things to really interfere with a fight and turn it in his favor. It's crazy to think you haven't fought a good Ness, because Ness' uair, bair, throws, and actually all of his smashes are pretty safe and reliable.

For ROB fair, perhaps make it like vBrawl shuttle loop?

The only reason I didn't fix ROB's fair was because I was waiting for people to say he was still OP so they wouldn't think I was nerfing on bias. In the "foolish rebuild" I had his fair chaining twice. No more and no less without rotor arm. It's not that hard really.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Sorry man, but that replay doesn't mean anything to me. I've faced better TLs, and that didn't showcase him being bad without arrows. That showcased a TL not being played as well as TL can be played. There was way more standing around and waiting than any TL should ever do.

 

[Kien]

TL's game revolves around his trap arrows. If you're having trouble fighting him, give Mario, Lucario, Fox, ROB, Pit, and ZSS a try. It's really not that hard to deal with

TL's game doesn't revolve around his arrows. They're just as much unneeded as his boomerang or bombs. You can win a match without using either if you know what you're doing. Being the best TL on the forum I can say that most people have over reliance on his arrows, and that is why they fall short and feel that TL isn't on par with Link.

 

[Glyph]

Guys a little over the top with the whole 'you're no good against ____' so that's why we know better

 

[Kien]

Hey, isn't that what you told the entire community about ROB?

 

[NEWB]

Yes it is... And it ultimately didn't help his case nor does saying so help anyone else's since we can all see what's going on.

I also don't believe TL depends on his arrows of all things. This guy has amazing defensive and out of shield options as it is since his moves are fast. All he needs to do is be a little defensive and respond with any of his moves, which he can accomplish easily with his traps but they aren't necessary if he knows how to space.