Most OP version of each character?

[Kien]

I mean if you wanna talk about OP... Roy was made to have really good air to ground and ground to air. I recently found out it was too good actually. There is barely a time when he has an opening outside of missing a smash attack. And he can combo into his up B which will 100% of the time KO off the top assuming you can carry someone there with either a utilt/uair, bair, or an up smash.

Minus might not have a future at all.

Don't count us out just yet.

 

[The Concept]

I
Don't count us out just yet.

Super Smash Brothers Minus 4 confirmed?

 

[Kien]

Who knows?

 

[Bashdemears]

I mean if you wanna talk about OP... Roy was made to have really good air to ground and ground to air. I recently found out it was too good actually. There is barely a time when he has an opening outside of missing a smash attack. And he can combo into his up B which will 100% of the time KO off the top assuming you can carry someone there with either a utilt/uair, bair, or an up smash.


Don't count us out just yet.

Nothing about that seems OP. Its not inescapable like wolf's Uair chains into UpB and it's not brain dead either.

 

[Kien]

It's inescapable once he gets you up. His range is too wide to DI out of it and he has directional control so tough luck. (I was the Roy in the situation) Hitstun is too high to actually get out of th eway. Once you're at 70% you can say goodbye to your current stock.

 

[Bashdemears]

Whoever you were playing against made poor decisions in DI and in wasting their jump. Avoid the UpB and you can touch ground. If you're talking about sweetspotted uair, thats either good read or bad play.

Kein can we just look at your resume of calling for nerfs to characters that dont need them. Then buffing characters who don't need it.

 

[Thor]

Can I just say, that Zard can KO Zelda in as little as 5 attacks? Her offstage game only works if you try to edgeguard or chase her.

Thor were you wanting me to address something?

Just that Falco having fast lasers doesn't fix uthrow at all - slow lasers were just as useful (or useless I guess).

Oh of course, Falco's definitely still up there! He definitely doesn't NEED his Nair cancels back, they were just a lot of fun to execute for onstage combos. Nair->Bair->jump->Nair->Bair is a lot more interesting than Bair->jump->Bair, y'know? I -never- had a problem recovering in 2.6x. even against gimping machines like Marth

Personally I prefer nair -> laser lock if they miss the tech, but that's just me : P

Also I don't think Falco's nair needs the cancel because nair -> utilt -> nair -> utilt -> ... or utilt -> nair -> utilt -> nair -> ... is plenty strong.

His most broken thing is still low percent fair strings - it has incredibly base KB and the angle to link it into people, and it almost gimps as good as dair (just fair gives that little extra range that can infuriate people).

If you never had problems being gimped as the old Falco they probably were bad at gimping OR you didn't go offstage much - I go deep offstage a lot, and Falco's the only character who can do that rather recklessly. Like, I would guess if you played a good MK as the old Falco, you'd be gimped somewhat often...

In other news I'm developing a Wolf. It's been very good practice at quickly following up on attacks AND not getting caped by Mario (who is always terrifying when you're offstage as Wolf).

Also bair is ridiculously strong - forget uair -> up+b, uair -> bair is really where it's at (or just up+B them then bair them after you've touched the stage again).

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

If you never had problems being gimped as the old Falco they probably were bad at gimping OR you didn't go offstage much - I go deep offstage a lot, and Falco's the only character who can do that rather recklessly. Like, I would guess if you played a good MK as the old Falco, you'd be gimped somewhat often...

I go offstage a lot as Purin.

Actually that's an understatment. I own offstage as Purin. #NoNeutralGame

 

[Greatest_Aether]

Who's Purin? Aren't they from Metal Gear Solid or something?

 

[Thor]

Who's Purin? Aren't they from Metal Gear Solid or something?

If sarcasm, lol.

If not, Purin = Jigglypuff. It's the Japanese name for her (him? it? can be either I guess...).

 

[PermaVermin]

I want to say that with slow lasers I had Falco's Bthrow kill someone off the edge of FD at 30% due to the lasers slowly carrying them to the blast zone.

 

[Thanatoast]

Agreeing with PermaVermin on that. The slow lasers were absolutely killer if you got that throw off (which isn't hard in 1v1), and with his off-stage dominance with that f-air, if you got that off on an edge of Final Destination, you just took out that stock relatively early. Wolf's current form is rather OP with the slow lasers that have the capacity to stun and carry offstage and into the blast-zone. I think that just the slow barrages of lasers on any character in general makes it relatively painful to play against on any character...
As for other characters, I would say that Pichu's intro was his most OP. Of course, considering he's a relatively new addition, there's not many incarnations to choose from. Same with Roy, though I say his current one as opposed to his intro.
MK with his neutral-A is kind of painful. It feels like it's supposed to be like an escape sequence or something to just get him out of being chained, but the way the new gravity works, he can just funnel anyone caught in it to the other end of the stage by just tapping it periodically, easily racking up damage. There isn't much room for DI escaping and you're kind of just stuck there unless you manage to somehow get out of tumble quickly (which, for some characters, is like giving a death-sentence). Maybe I'm just reading wrong on how MK's neutral-A is supposed to work?

 

[SunderStorm]

1.0 Luigi was nuts. His aerial maneuverability was insane and his fair was just demonic.
1.0/1.6 Samus with ice missiles was nuts. She could ice missile you into dair/bair guaranteed.
I think the version of Falcon right before they nerfed his upSmash his the strongest. Not by much over the current one though, very close.
Charizard right before they nerfed a bunch of his stuff (ftilt, usmash, nair?) recently was his strongest.
Current Zelda.
Shiek when she had her stronger fair, uair, nair and instant dair. Whip doesn't even come close to those.
Bowser when he had a broken RR hitbox (this shit would anti-air you from the floor) and when he could do it for however long he wanted.
Ivysaur before his uair got nerfed.
Jigglypuff when rest could put her % into the negatives.
Link with ice arrows (1.0/1.6?). People think he's broken now but that shit would kill you at 0.
Rob with his multilasers and reflect on his sideb.

note: beta 1.0/1.6

 

[Tybis]

I want to say that with slow lasers I had Falco's Bthrow kill someone off the edge of FD at 30% due to the lasers slowly carrying them to the blast zone.

It happened to me once, but it's kinda unreliable. It's lulzy if it works though, as my friend nearly fell on the floor laughing after taking my stock.

 

[Bashdemears]

The DI is kinda tricky. I try to SDI towards the stage then DI up

 

[Thor]

I want to say that with slow lasers I had Falco's Bthrow kill someone off the edge of FD at 30% due to the lasers slowly carrying them to the blast zone.

If a player properly DIs bthrow (or can SDI) the lasers will never, EVER kill someone at that low a percent. Maybe at like 180% where lasers have actual KB, but if you're DIing the throw correctly, you should not be hit by most of the lasers, if any at all. That's just bad DI. I usually try just holding down, but I never play against Falco (or hardly ever) so whatever. I do know that I've seen people get out by being below all the lasers, which is why I think holding down works.

Agreeing with PermaVermin on that. The slow lasers were absolutely killer if you got that throw off (which isn't hard in 1v1), and with his off-stage dominance with that f-air, if you got that off on an edge of Final Destination, you just took out that stock relatively early. Wolf's current form is rather OP with the slow lasers that have the capacity to stun and carry offstage and into the blast-zone. I think that just the slow barrages of lasers on any character in general makes it relatively painful to play against on any character...
As for other characters, I would say that Pichu's intro was his most OP. Of course, considering he's a relatively new addition, there's not many incarnations to choose from. Same with Roy, though I say his current one as opposed to his intro.
MK with his neutral-A is kind of painful. It feels like it's supposed to be like an escape sequence or something to just get him out of being chained, but the way the new gravity works, he can just funnel anyone caught in it to the other end of the stage by just tapping it periodically, easily racking up damage. There isn't much room for DI escaping and you're kind of just stuck there unless you manage to somehow get out of tumble quickly (which, for some characters, is like giving a death-sentence). Maybe I'm just reading wrong on how MK's neutral-A is supposed to work?

That's all due to terrible, terrible DI... Wolf's lasers are bad unless they are set up in which case they are just stupid (I put 80% on a Bowser on FD by standing about 2/3 of the way across stage and shooting while they were offstage - when they got the ledge they couldn't get back on because he has no ledgehop XD). MK neutral A can be DI'd so it doesn't chain into itself, except maybe by Bowser...

 

[Thanatoast]

That's all due to terrible, terrible DI... Wolf's lasers are bad unless they are set up in which case they are just stupid (I put 80% on a Bowser on FD by standing about 2/3 of the way across stage and shooting while they were offstage - when they got the ledge they couldn't get back on because he has no ledgehop XD). MK neutral A can be DI'd so it doesn't chain into itself, except maybe by Bowser...

I suppose. I am a bit notorious for falling into things and having really bad DI. I can't quite figure it out ... It's still rather inconvenient that Wolf's Lasers grow AND increase in damage AND increase stun AND increase knockback, especially with characters that already have a tough time off-stage. I blame gravity. Ah well.

Another one I haven't included just yet is Lucario. Current Lucario, that is. The ranged hit-boxes are my bane (though not so much with Zorldo, there's enough room in there to still avoid). So hard to approach, and that superior DI...!

 

[PermaVermin]

I'm just sayin' it happened man. As long as it happened, it's a use for them. Bad DI or not.
Even if it was simply bad DI (And I know he was attempting to DI), you're forcing your opponent to DI down+away, Falco's favorite for easy spikes.
EVEN IF the weird throw-death combo wasn't there on the lasers, you've created a wall of lasers discouraging them from DIing towards them.

I don't even like the slow lasers. Don't bring them back.

 

[Valravn]

MK with his neutral-A is kind of painful. It feels like it's supposed to be like an escape sequence or something to just get him out of being chained, but the way the new gravity works, he can just funnel anyone caught in it to the other end of the stage by just tapping it periodically, easily racking up damage. There isn't much room for DI escaping and you're kind of just stuck there unless you manage to somehow get out of tumble quickly (which, for some characters, is like giving a death-sentence). Maybe I'm just reading wrong on how MK's neutral-A is supposed to work?

I used to be able to trap my roommate with MK's neutral A, but after a couple matches he learned to DI it pretty well. It's rare that I can hit him with it three times in a row, and usually not twice.

 

[Thor]

I'm just sayin' it happened man. As long as it happened, it's a use for them. Bad DI or not.
Even if it was simply bad DI (And I know he was attempting to DI), you're forcing your opponent to DI down+away, Falco's favorite for easy spikes.
EVEN IF the weird throw-death combo wasn't there on the lasers, you've created a wall of lasers discouraging them from DIing towards them.

I don't even like the slow lasers. Don't bring them back.

Slow lasers are better except you can't laser lock. I like laser locking people.

And no you don't create an easy spike because Falco's bthrow is basically zero on hit (frame-wise) if you actually DI it correctly, and you're not low but like level with the stage. You can often DJ and recover high or go for the ledge with recovering low and have a chance to airdodge his dair and grab ledge via up+b, and it's even easier for characters with good recoveries instead of merely ok ones [so Jiggs has no issues, Ike/Bowser/DK/CF/Ganondorf should be able to at least go for a mixup].

Slow lasers vs fast lasers is the difference between a highly campy Falco (with side+b to run away and fast lasers allowing camping against all but the fastest like Sonic and CF) vs a Falco that has very strong approach options but actually must approach (with slow lasers allowing Falco to get grabs with some ease or attack shields more safely). I think Falco is more interesting with slow lasers, but not necessarily better... that's just me though.

 

[Thanatoast]

I honestly don't/didn't see how Zelda was as bad as folks say. Yeah, a lot of her attacks have more than one hitbox, and yes, if you get hit by one of them she will send you back and away and begin to combo, but if you know her hitboxes (which isn't all that hard), she is kind of boned. Her attacks aren't that fast and are easily beatable (save for maybe her neutral A, N-air, and B). If you get between those hitboxes, aren't trying to blindly bum-rush, and think about your approach, she is easily cornered. Then you start your sick MLG 360 no-scope wombo-combos.

 

[Thor]

I honestly don't/didn't see how Zelda was as bad as folks say. Yeah, a lot of her attacks have more than one hitbox, and yes, if you get hit by one of them she will send you back and away and begin to combo, but if you know her hitboxes (which isn't all that hard), she is kind of boned. Her attacks aren't that fast and are easily beatable (save for maybe her neutral A, N-air, and B). If you get between those hitboxes, aren't trying to blindly bum-rush, and think about your approach, she is easily cornered. Then you start your sick MLG 360 no-scope wombo-combos.

Her lightning kicks and dsmash are also fast but otherwise I agree.

I feel like some of her stuff should do less shield damage (FSMASH LONG RANGE CURSE YOU!!!) but that's just me and not terribly relevant to this thread.

 

[PermaVermin]

Ok really tho

You get very little from baiting out any hitboxes (endlag on SH Fair/Bair? pls), and just because you know where they are doesn't mean you can know which she's going to throw out. They're all very quick and hard to predict against a good Zelda. And this 45 degree angle stuff is silly because it's not like she can't read your jump in from a mile away and SH back and BAir/FAir you. Or Nair you.. or whatever she decides to do.
Her effective range is frankly ridiculous. And she doesn't have to try to keep you out, she's contempt with just pressuring you from a distance, often forcing the opponent to back off in some situations to leave her effective range. Essentially, she can go in while simultaneously keeping you out.

She can easily bait and punish bad defensive reads (Rolls, Spotdodges, Airdodges, Shields even) from almost any distance, of which you have to make several of while approaching. You should only get an opening if the Zelda player makes a mistake, and for every opportunity you get to get a hit on Zelda she should have had several more opportunities to get a hit on you. As previously stated, she's not shy in the damage or KO potential departments, so that's ludicrous.

She's not that hard to pick up and easily shuts down a vast number of the cast. We're talking some seriously unwinnable shit here with some characters while others have at best a really tough time. Characters like Fox, Lucario, Wolf (to an extent, his approach on her is far too predictable) etc. with an easy-in option are the only ones who can really give her trouble, I'd say Lucario beats her flat out even. However, if you're playing a set with someone and they have an okay pocket Zelda your options have slimmed significantly and you're forced to stick to characters who are safe options if the opponent counterpicks Zelda after your victory.

That's not fun. Even if you're the Zelda player.

Like I said earlier, I'm not calling for nerfs in the slightest. (If anything, I'd like to see her stupidest MUs just evened out) But arguing that she's not one of the top characters is just silly to me. But I guess that's just like my opinion, man.

 

[PermaVermin]

And no you don't create an easy spike because Falco's bthrow is basically zero on hit (frame-wise) if you actually DI it correctly, and you're not low but like level with the stage. You can often DJ and recover high or go for the ledge with recovering low and have a chance to airdodge his dair and grab ledge via up+b, and it's even easier for characters with good recoveries instead of merely ok ones [so Jiggs has no issues, Ike/Bowser/DK/CF/Ganondorf should be able to at least go for a mixup].

Sorry I should have clarified that by 'easy spikes' I was more referring to how braindead easy it is to land his DAir spike given the active frames. I'm more trying to make the statement here that at least the slow lasers did something off BThrow, however minute.

 

[Thanatoast]

Again, I don't know about that. I guess I can see how some of her ranged attacks are pretty hard to deal with in terms of the knockback (the second extended hitbox), but I can think of a couple match-ups for Zelda that are rather good at taking her out: Marth, Roy, Wolf, Lucario, MK, basically anyone with decent jumping and DI. Once you get in one hit on her, you can just start smacking her around. She has a really hard time getting out of tumble, so once you start bouncing her around, she's dead. I'm not saying she's not powerful, but maybe not as much as y'all are making her out to be. Perhaps reducing the outer hitbox, but other than that, she's pretty easy to get around once you've figured out her attack patterns, at least from my experience...