Most OP version of each character?

[PermaVermin]

attack patterns

There's yer problem right there.

 

[Thanatoast]

There's yer problem right there.

So I've been told. Though perhaps what I said and what I mean to say came off wrong. @.@; When I say attack patterns, I'm talking about how her attacks appear. Like, with her F-smash, how you can tilt it and whatnot, the arc/range of her tilts isn't all that game-ruining (I hesitate to say "game breaking" because tis what the Brawl Minus does). It can extend one and a half, two characters high in that arc, but you dodge around that and there's that whole nice space between her and her hitbox. :x

 

[PermaVermin]

The problem is that you get past the outer layer of hitboxes and you get really into the Zelda Zone, opening up dozens of options for attacks on you as it gets even harder to move forward. Making one right read isn't enough, you need several.

 

[Thanatoast]

The problem is that you get past the outer layer of hitboxes and you get really into the Zelda Zone, opening up dozens of options for attacks on you as it gets even harder to move forward. Making one right read isn't enough, you need several.

I suppose, but a lot of her attacks other than her f-tilts reach into there, and even then those take a decent while to wind-up. And even her jab doesn't reach that far. Marth's sword reaches past her jab and hits right at his sweetspot, which hits her weak point for massive damage, and then combo her out into oblivion. If you want to talk about dozens of options for attacks and whatnot once you get past a certain point, how about Lucario with his increased damage output, increased Double-Team/Counter attack speed, increased Aura Sphere that gives him a safe haven while also damaging him to increase its size, increased Extremespeed distance, and increased Force Palm distance/CloseCombat effectiveness?

 

[PermaVermin]

No one's going to argue that Lucario isn't stupid good even after several nerfs.
Also you're forgetting SH BAir

 

[Thanatoast]

No one's going to argue that Lucario isn't stupid good even after several nerfs.
Also you're forgetting SH BAir

Right. I did, I suppose. I could mention the current Kirby build and how he chains into his f-throws, Link with his sword that has a sweet spot everywhere that up KO with tilts at 80% as well as his projectiles, or Jiggs with her f-air that leads all but the best jumpers to their deaths, but that's a different subject (well, same subject, different sub-subjects). But seriously, damn those guys.

 

[Thor]

Ok really tho

You get very little from baiting out any hitboxes (endlag on SH Fair/Bair? pls), and just because you know where they are doesn't mean you can know which she's going to throw out. They're all very quick and hard to predict against a good Zelda. And this 45 degree angle stuff is silly because it's not like she can't read your jump in from a mile away and SH back and BAir/FAir you. Or Nair you.. or whatever she decides to do.
Her effective range is frankly ridiculous. And she doesn't have to try to keep you out, she's contempt with just pressuring you from a distance, often forcing the opponent to back off in some situations to leave her effective range. Essentially, she can go in while simultaneously keeping you out.

She can easily bait and punish bad defensive reads (Rolls, Spotdodges, Airdodges, Shields even) from almost any distance, of which you have to make several of while approaching. You should only get an opening if the Zelda player makes a mistake, and for every opportunity you get to get a hit on Zelda she should have had several more opportunities to get a hit on you. As previously stated, she's not shy in the damage or KO potential departments, so that's ludicrous.

She's not that hard to pick up and easily shuts down a vast number of the cast. We're talking some seriously unwinnable shit here with some characters while others have at best a really tough time. Characters like Fox, Lucario, Wolf (to an extent, his approach on her is far too predictable) etc. with an easy-in option are the only ones who can really give her trouble, I'd say Lucario beats her flat out even. However, if you're playing a set with someone and they have an okay pocket Zelda your options have slimmed significantly and you're forced to stick to characters who are safe options if the opponent counterpicks Zelda after your victory.

That's not fun. Even if you're the Zelda player.

Like I said earlier, I'm not calling for nerfs in the slightest. (If anything, I'd like to see her stupidest MUs just evened out) But arguing that she's not one of the top characters is just silly to me. But I guess that's just like my opinion, man.

Who has an unwinnable (or close to) MU vs Zelda? I'm curious... I can't think of anyone...

Now Olimar vs Luigi, THAT is a tough battle for Luigi. Your only options to get in are cyclone and dash attack, which each lose to shield, so Olimar throws stuff at you, shields, rinse and repeat. Luigi thankfully combos like a boss, but that MU is really freaking hard...

 

[PermaVermin]

Bowser vs Zelda has always been excruciatingly horrible, Charizard as mentioned earlier. Any floaty/slower characters should not beat Zelda.

 

[PermaVermin]

Bowser's main tools are all grounded so he has to eat all of zelda's shit on the way in, the extendo hitboxes' damage is enough to break dash armor and any other armored moves result in too slow of an approach. Jumping at her is out of the question because your jumping approach options are super predictable and you'll get fucked.
Also you're twice the size of everyone else GG.

I remember matches where I'd eat anywhere from 80% to 120% just armoring shit (because I know where the ghost hitboxes are! wow gosh) to get in and she'd escape every time I ever even got close, exploiting the endlag of my armored moves. And back then I had Fire Breath as an option.
I'm not sure what you want characters with a more linear approach to do.. Do you expect them to just PS every one of Zelda's pokes until they're finally in?


I'm really, really over talking about this. Go figure this would turn into another Minus tier list thread style discussion where people with differing scenes/playstyles/opponents/experiences/tech etc in an incredibly small game all throw their opinions at each other. It's stupid and it'll never get anywhere.

 

[Bashdemears]

Its not a list discussion. Its a zelda disscussion.

 

[Thanatoast]

Also Sonic is kind of 90% OP but we're not there yet, so it seems

 

[Thor]

Bowser's main tools are all grounded so he has to eat all of zelda's shit on the way in, the extendo hitboxes' damage is enough to break dash armor and any other armored moves result in too slow of an approach. Jumping at her is out of the question because your jumping approach options are super predictable and you'll get fucked.
Also you're twice the size of everyone else GG.

I remember matches where I'd eat anywhere from 80% to 120% just armoring shit (because I know where the ghost hitboxes are! wow gosh) to get in and she'd escape every time I ever even got close, exploiting the endlag of my armored moves. And back then I had Fire Breath as an option.
I'm not sure what you want characters with a more linear approach to do.. Do you expect them to just PS every one of Zelda's pokes until they're finally in?


I'm really, really over talking about this. Go figure this would turn into another Minus tier list thread style discussion where people with differing scenes/playstyles/opponents/experiences/tech etc in an incredibly small game all throw their opinions at each other. It's stupid and it'll never get anywhere.

Bowser has some issues that go beyond Zelda, but that's neither here nor there. I agree the Bowser Zelda MU is still terrible, but one RR grab is a stock if you're good at Bowser, so mess up 4 times and you die as Zelda.

That said, I think Bowser needs a better answer to her long-range fsmash and lightning kicks - the rest he can cope with, but those three moves just make him look like Melee Bowser when fighting her - almost useless. Admittedly someone told me to experiment with shield and up+B OoS to get close, but I don't think that would work terribly great, as fast as up+B is. I believe you can RR through an fsmash to land the grab (timing is tight) and you can use dair armor to rather silly effect (that armor is seriously so good), but I don't know how much those things really help.

Charizard does ok because his nair is amazing, he has armor in various places, and I think on his glide attack which can be exploited by running really far away and then flying in at crazy fast speeds and laughing when Zelda attacks (armor through and start comboing) or shields (just land and grab her). It's not ideal, but that's not his only option either. I don't think that MU is unwinnable, merely difficult (like Captain Falcon's MU against Sheik).

I don't know who else is both floaty and slow... Kirby? I thought he could duck fsmash if it's not angled down XD. And if he can see it's angled down, he just jumps over it. He can also irritate her with final cutter and his burning dash attack very well.

You noted that Luario beats Zelda. MK beats Zelda too, but it's not easy on either side. As for others who beat Zelda, I'd have to think, but MK comes off the top of my head, and I'm pretty sure Sheik beats Zelda (Except down+b poof the MU is even).

 

[Valravn]

Also Sonic is kind of 90% OP but we're not there yet, so it seems

Shhhhh, I like winning.

 

[virge]

okay anyone wana throw down a full list of there opinions. this should be an official release: Project Brawl Minus Dick Cheese

 

[Valravn]

Brawl Minus: Smegma Edition

 

[NEWB]

Thor, bowser can eat zelda fairs by crouching. Distant hitboxes anyway.

 

[The Concept]

Making an overpowered build with this so far:

Spoiler: Confirmed

3.Q Captain Falcon
3.3 Olimar
Ellipsis Pichu
3.Q Roy
3.Q Pit
3.Q Zelda
3.3 Ice Climbers
Charizard/3.3
3.Q Sheik
Kirby/3.5
Diddy Kong/3.Q

Spoiler: Most likely staying

3.Q Mario
MAX 1.0 Lucario
3.Q Donkey Kong
3.3 Marth or 3.1?
3.Q Ike
3.Q ToonLink

Spoiler: Testing

3.3 Marth
3.1 Meta Knight
3.Q King Dedede
3.1 Ness
3.1 Snake
3.1 Falco
3.Q Link
3.Q Wolf
3.5 Sonic
3.3 Wario
Bent's Gannondorf
3.3 Bowser
3.Q Samus
3.Q Pikachu
2.x.6 Fox
MAX R.O.B

Spoiler: (Unsure)Look into replacing/ replace with

3.Q Link/Max Link or 1.0/1.6?
R.O.B/2.x.6 or Max?
MetaKnight/3.5 or 3.1?
King Dedede
Ivysaur/3.3
Squirtle/3.5
Jigglypuff/3.3
Ness/3.5 or 3.1?
Lucas/3.Q
3.3-3.Q Snake/3.1?
Falco/3.1 or MAX
Wolf/1.6 3.Q>3.3
Peach/3.3
Sonic/3.5 or 3.1?

Spoiler: Needs to change/replace with

-Wario/3.Q
-Ganondorf(if 3.Q)/Bent's Gannondorf or 3.5
-Bowser/Original Royal Rampage or 3.3
-Yoshi/3.1?
-Samus/2.x.6 or 1.0 or 1.6? 3.Q>3.3&3.5
-Zero Suit Samus/3.3
-Pikachu/3.Q=3.5=3.3 or MAX?
-Mr. Game&Watch/2.x.6
-Fox/2.x.6 or MAX
-Luigi/3.Q

Have fun trying to understand my organizational paradigm.

 

[Thor]

There are builds of Sheik that are MUCH more overpowered (remember her high jump height and silly strong fair/uair/nair/bair/dair [oh wait that's all her aerials...]?)... If you REALLY like new chain (which isn't worth it in my opinion), put it into MAX Sheik (or 1.01/3.3 Sheik) and that will be a stronger Sheik.

Mario had better versions of metal taunt - unless new firebrand is REALLY that good (I don't think it is), fast metal taunt is probably better (unless one gets CG'd too much... but even then, older Mario had more KO power).

Whatever Marth had amazing sliding fsmashes that went way too far when done while walking.

The MK with no damage output was lame in my opinion (but hilarious in teams). I like 3.Q MK a lot, but there may very well be more broken versions of him.

Unless you REALLY like fast-falling Samus, her other builds were better in my opinion (and apparently 2.X.6 Samus is well-loved). But if you disagree, well, ok.

I think if 3.Q Fox had the 53% on-startup-when-all-hits-hit Fire Fox, he'd be great. But I don't know what boons 2.X.6 had over 3.Q (no laser-cancelling...) so that's just my $0.02 on Fox.

I think Max 1.01 Falco was awesome, but his nair was weird if memory serves... I don't know if slow lasers + janky nair > fast lasers + better utilt + stil very good nair honestly...

Whatever build of Link had the super fast Mortal Draw was DEFINITELY the most broken - boomerang could setup somewhat reliably into it.

My input on The Concept's build. Take it or leave it or leave just parts of it.

 

[virge]

^ i thought 1.5 wario, luigi and wolf was the best

 

[Greatest_Aether]

I'd have to agree with The Concept on 3.Q Ike, 3.Q Roy, and maybe Ness. Isn't that the one with Bat Mode? If so, then HYES.

 

[The Concept]

They're just tests.
This is only where I'm starting.
If you have input, then state it as Thor has done.
I can be persuaded to change my choices, with the proper arguments.
Things before 3.01 have not been fully analyzed and judged.
Thanks.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

Well, excuuuse me, princess!
In all seriousness...
3.Q Ike is a really good Minus build to pick. His NSM has no drawbacks, auto-activates, and unlocks a whole new set of options for him. Not to mention that the Razing Eruption kills at 30%.

Roy in general is better in 3.Q. His Blazer auto-snaps ledges, his side-b is now a TRUE recovery move, and now he can get amazing dair combos with aerial side-b and then kill you of the top with Blazer.

3. ...Not sure about this one. Is 3.0 the same as MAX 1.0? If it is, use Ness from that build. He had Bat Mode which gave him nearly an entirely new moveset to play with. And this was also before the fair nerfs.

Ultimately, it's all up to The Concept to decide which builds to include. There are people who play more Ike, Roy and Ness than me, but I'm just throwing out ideas.

 

[Thor]

Well, excuuuse me, princess!
In all seriousness...
3.Q Ike is a really good Minus build to pick. His NSM has no drawbacks, auto-activates, and unlocks a whole new set of options for him. Not to mention that the Razing Eruption kills at 30%.

Roy in general is better in 3.Q. His Blazer auto-snaps ledges, his side-b is now a TRUE recovery move, and now he can get amazing dair combos with aerial side-b and then kill you of the top with Blazer.

3. ...Not sure about this one. Is 3.0 the same as MAX 1.0? If it is, use Ness from that build. He had Bat Mode which gave him nearly an entirely new moveset to play with. And this was also before the fair nerfs.

Ultimately, it's all up to The Concept to decide which builds to include. There are people who play more Ike, Roy and Ness than me, but I'm just throwing out ideas.

I loved Ike being able to store Eruption at will, but that's fundamentally a different Ike in my opinion because they both differ in how they play, in how you use some of their stuff, and in what they're focused on... just my thought on Ike...

 

[The Concept]

Well, excuuuse me, princess!
In all seriousness...
3.Q Ike is a really good Minus build to pick. His NSM has no drawbacks, auto-activates, and unlocks a whole new set of options for him. Not to mention that the Razing Eruption kills at 30%.

Roy in general is better in 3.Q. His Blazer auto-snaps ledges, his side-b is now a TRUE recovery move, and now he can get amazing dair combos with aerial side-b and then kill you of the top with Blazer.

3. ...Not sure about this one. Is 3.0 the same as MAX 1.0? If it is, use Ness from that build. He had Bat Mode which gave him nearly an entirely new moveset to play with. And this was also before the fair nerfs.

Ultimately, it's all up to The Concept to decide which builds to include. There are people who play more Ike, Roy and Ness than me, but I'm just throwing out ideas.

"Princess"? Hahahaha. Funny.
I want Bat mode as well, I just didn't know where it is. I'll put it in when I get some more time to work on this.

@Bent 00 I'm using the cancel Ganon, not the safe flying punch one.

^ i thought 1.5 wario, luigi and wolf was the best

You know, I actually went back and tried 1.5 Luigi..... Nope. At least not imo. The tripping attack is funny and I wish I could code it back in, because it could be a really cool surprise attack. 3Q has more options and is simply the more OP build in my eyes.
3Q Wario has the rolling crate. That was a big factor in this, because the most annoying thing when fighting Wario is having him at the blastline, then crate-punch-ride his way back.
I have yet to test 1.5 Wolf.

 

[Thor]

Go way back for Luigi - his fair has apparently been nerfed in almost every single update according to @SunderStorm who might be able to say a bit more about it.

Wario can also just ride his bike back in some versions because his bike literally flies (WHICH I WANT BACK!).