Kien's Custom Minus Build
- Thread starter Kien
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Thor
Well-Known Member
Minus's meta has EVEN less of a meta that's developed than PM, so I think at this point your entire argument that Charizard is bad just went to pieces. Plus some changes affect things drastically in this game (at this point Pichu is slated for changes, ICs have gotten changes, and have you seen Olimar's changelogs? He's been a wild card for all of Minus that only recently started needing only one or two changes instead of entire rebuilds every update - you could make a version of Brawl- called "The many modes of Olimar" and just put all his versions in, and you'd have like at least 5 Olimars or something, if memory serves when I saw some old changelogs...), and Mewtwo has gone under no massive changes (until 3.5), and Snake didn't really get any in 3.02 either, so this mod has been almost the same for like 10 months (3.0 came out in December), which is more than Minus can say.
Falco's lasers aren't unbeatable (walking powershield, jump over them, some can just duck), his reflector isn't (some can duck, all can jump over it, or shield and punish, or SHAD), his bair is certainly not that safe (shield-grabbable, outranged by some [including 'Zard]), and unlike 'Zard, he doesn't have a great grab range, or as many tools for combo followups. You just shield side+b and jump OoS or punish him for it as well.
And it's been said that 'Zard needs only nair, stealth rock, blast burn, and Fly to win matches (and maybe dthrow I guess). That's what you just said about Falco - and you say "Other moves" when he needs at least one of his other aerials (namely nair) and two of his smash attacks to win matches - and unlike 'Zard, he doesn't have a KO throw.
If 'Zard got a small fair buff and a better dair he'd probably end up like top 5, and as it stands I think he's still in the upper half of the cast. You can always (unless you are Darxmarx) face the opponent, jump, hold away, and hit the cstick forward for a retreating fair that is VERY difficult to punish.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Because we're having an arguement over only one move.
ONE FREAKING MOVE.
Charizard has more than nair, Ness has more than PK Fire and Little Mac has more than Straight Lunge.
ONE FREAKING MOVE.
Charizard has more than nair, Ness has more than PK Fire and Little Mac has more than Straight Lunge.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
That also means that all of you guys arguments just died too.
Also, zard isn't anywhere NEAR top 20, so y'all can stop playin now. He isn't truely weak, I admit that, Mid tier. But to claim such a statement makes me want to vomit. Zard is pretty good in some areas, but to be up there with ROB, lucario, wolf, diddy, MK, and others, you to be good in more than a couple of categories.
EDIT: I really don't care at this point, my initial point was that kien buffs the bottom to the top and that all chars gets a interesting theme to go with it.
Darxmarx
The Learning Star Warrior
Kien, I've been wondering if you've made any true changes to Kirby yet.
I mean, I can already see super armor on Hammer removed and the electric hitbox on the "changing back" animation for Stone being removed.
The Final Cutter projectile's killing power is also absurd in certain situations, as we have seen... Making it a 10%, single-hit attack that knocked foes upwards and away from Kirby could fix that. It would still serve as a sort of keep-away tool, but it wouldn't semi-spike opponents that are close to or on the ledge. Maybe give it set knockback, which could possibly give Kirby some combos if he was close enough? I'm not exactly sure on what would be a good change for the projectile; these are just some ideas.
There's no rush for changes, I'm just curious.
Also a really minor thing, but perhaps Cook Kirby could be buffed. Maybe make it a full-screen attack and/or unavoidable?
I mean, I can already see super armor on Hammer removed and the electric hitbox on the "changing back" animation for Stone being removed.
The Final Cutter projectile's killing power is also absurd in certain situations, as we have seen... Making it a 10%, single-hit attack that knocked foes upwards and away from Kirby could fix that. It would still serve as a sort of keep-away tool, but it wouldn't semi-spike opponents that are close to or on the ledge. Maybe give it set knockback, which could possibly give Kirby some combos if he was close enough? I'm not exactly sure on what would be a good change for the projectile; these are just some ideas.
There's no rush for changes, I'm just curious.
Also a really minor thing, but perhaps Cook Kirby could be buffed. Maybe make it a full-screen attack and/or unavoidable?
Thor
Well-Known Member
After chatting with you, I've started to think that there is a rather big dropoff between the top like 8 or so (in no order Lucario, ROB, Dedede, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon, Wario [like how the heck do you approach him...? All his stuff is super safe on shield too...], and arguably Fox (hard to hit, crazy combo game, and shine spikes are so lethal if you can do it twice, which isn't hard for Fox except against Lucario] and possibly Ganondorf (slow, but lethal] and Marth [range for days]) and much of the cast, it's just that it's graduated by characters who do a few silly things really well [Pikachu and MK], and I think 'Zard sits at the top of the point where the dropoff starts to be noticeable (or the bottom of silliness because of nair and stealth rock).
But when you rank them all by number, the gaps seem small enough that it doesn't seem that big to be a distance from 10 to 17 or so (I think 'Zard is probably around 17) when it is...
That, combined with your skill with Charizard, convinced most people he's in the top 10 - I think Charizard would be top 5 with a better fair/dair (as I've said before), but that's my opinion [fair is already kind of scary, buffing it would make his range terrifying].
I agree that buffing bottom to top is a good idea, I just think 'Zard will be around the middle, not the first to get buffs, since we don't have fabulous Pichu/IC/Squirtle players, but we do have at least one really good [former] Charizard (you).
Don't go vomiting now. Zard is actually one of the few people who can shut down Lucario with no problem. Let's not forget in our match I only lost because I picked Lucario, having no prior charizard experience I was unaware that Zard had super armor and large hitboxes to shut down ES and DT. Stealth rocks don't only shut down ES, but the also shut down Aura sphere's and every other one of Lucario's approaches. When combined with Fair he can't do much to get in. Zard's 2 frame kill move nair against someone as light as him also gets him wrecked. Lucario can't do much outside of fair and ES to approach when the opponent doesn't have to worry about spheres.
Thor
Well-Known Member
You really hate walking, don't you?
...
I think 'Zard does well against Lucario, but not for these reasons.
Walking isn't a viable approach. MAYBE running. But against a character with AOE pretty much everything, walking up on him will get you smashed. Then again, you are partially right in that my Lucario isn't one for the ground. Even in Vbrawl where I play him differently, the majority of my approaching is done in the air.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
you're using extreme hyperbole
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
You just want Zard nerfed because I showed you something unexpected and you want it gone. I use wolf now, because Zard is boring, and feels weak. You just want link top top tier
Thor
Well-Known Member
Kien, just because you approach in the air doesn't mean walking or running aren't viable approaches.
You can shield directly out of a walk, so walking is less commitment than directly running or actually going airborne.
I could see that Charizard can sort of handle Lucario, for this reason: Charizard is heavy and so even if Lucario does a thirty-hit combo, aura doesn't kick in until 75% or so and Lucario only did like 130% or whatever. Then Charizard can land a few hits and all of a sudden Lucario is at 50% and vulnerable to being KO'd. Essentially, Charizard can probably rather consistently KO Lucario before aura really kicks in, so Lucario has to beat him up forever and land KO moves at rather high percents to KO Charizard.
This doesn't account for actual approaches, etc., but Lucario can always walk up to where fair and ES and spheres work better. Also owo walks a lot and it seems to work for him...
Wolf is kind of hard to use but he's really really good. His recovery is one of the jankiest in all of Minus though.
You can shield directly out of a walk, so walking is less commitment than directly running or actually going airborne.
I could see that Charizard can sort of handle Lucario, for this reason: Charizard is heavy and so even if Lucario does a thirty-hit combo, aura doesn't kick in until 75% or so and Lucario only did like 130% or whatever. Then Charizard can land a few hits and all of a sudden Lucario is at 50% and vulnerable to being KO'd. Essentially, Charizard can probably rather consistently KO Lucario before aura really kicks in, so Lucario has to beat him up forever and land KO moves at rather high percents to KO Charizard.
This doesn't account for actual approaches, etc., but Lucario can always walk up to where fair and ES and spheres work better. Also owo walks a lot and it seems to work for him...
Wolf is kind of hard to use but he's really really good. His recovery is one of the jankiest in all of Minus though.
Of course. That's why this plethora of nerfs is applied to Link. We all know the best way to get a character into top tier is by toning them down and making 80% of their hardest to punish moves more punishable. Please read the changes before making a comment like that again. I mean, I can't force you to use logic in your argument but I can guide you in the right direction.
This means that Lucario is literally useless in the fight. Shielding out of walk with get you dash grabbed in a hurry. We all know Zard has good throws, so that could be game for Lucario, not to mention shielding ES and grabbing. There are many things that someone like Zard could do to KO him around 80 every time. If the problem was only Zard vs Lucario specific then it wouldn't be a problem though would it? Zard can use the same tools against everyone and win with relative ease. It doesn't take any training, and it doesn't take any skill to pull off consistently. If a character can't win without abusing specific moves then that character doesn't work properly.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
Are you seriously arguing that Zard is OP?
Good throws don't equal games, great movesets do. Zard is okay at building damage, but DI and SDI saids otherwise. What now? Spam Nair like I'm fighting CPUs?
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Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
I guess your meaning of right direction is to take away Nair, Dthrow, and buff Fair, and expect Zard to be goodish still.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
Here's one thing I need to point out here: we're all running I circles at this point, failing to understand what we need in order for to see our different views on the game not in a vacuum; Dedicated players. We don't have nobody that is drilling in hours and hours of playtime in this mod. These players are the driving force of our game. If we don't have them, we can't prove one right and one wrong, and we would Be wasting our time. We could formulate our theories as well as the next guy, but It doesn't matter if we have nobody to test them out. Our passion for this mod must increase if we want a better one. Kdot the love of this mod, we need to practice, play, and learn more I'm order to better the game.
Baby_Sneak
Well-Known Member
Then why haven't we acted on this problem?
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
And just HOW do you guys expect to get more players? I mean, PM is gonna get way more players with it's 3.5 update and we barely have any players and it has been a few months since our last update and we STILL haven't heard anything from the Backroom.
Other Aether
Mediator
Nobody has said Charizard is OP. Kien is saying that Charizard has some areas that could use balancing, to make him a more fun and fair character to fight against. A character can be unrounded without being OP.
Thor
Well-Known Member
... No it won't. Unless you do it every time, at which point, yes and you suck.
I don't know how many times I've shielded while walking towards a dashing opponent and shielded an upsmash (or dash attack) which is then shieldgrab city (or drop shield ES or AS, whatever), and follow up from there. If you suspect dash grab, you can OoS dair or fair or something. Just sitting in shield every time hurts you, but that's not what happens every time.
... I really wish I had Wi-Fi - no one here can play Charizard at all and I'm curious what yours looks like.
EDIT: As far as marketing Minus goes, recommend to friends, if you have it and go to other tournaments bring it (I REALLY NEED MINE), we could also make three (or I guess 4) radical change to Minus in order to make it far more appealing to players of other games, but that would not sit well with much, if any, of the current fanbase.
For those curious, these are the changes I think would work:
1) Implement some form of crouch-cancelling
2) Implement Fox-style airdodge for all
3) Change ledges - at least vastly reduce the sweetspot size (ala Smash 4), or maybe even remove sweetspotting from underneath. Also increase it to 30 invincibility frames on the ledge while you are stuck on the ledge for 17 (or so) frames. We may also have to adjust the priority of some recoveries, most notably Falco's and Dedede's.
[4) Remake Fox and adjust others for this new environment, and 5) start selling the mod differently, including that it possess "automatic L-cancelling", AND 6) find some people to play test and note that we always love more play testers. We may also need 7) increased shieldstun/less lag on certain moves, like Fox dair (both), Falcon's knee (shieldstun), Ganondorf dair (shieldstun), and Falco/Fox ftilt (endlag) - may have to increase shielddrop lag too].
In other words, we could just sell it as a more chaotic but incredibly fast version of Melee [and in doing so also sell our souls, but who cares? It's FOR SCIENCE!].
Whether or not we do that, I don't think increasing the fanbase is exactly easy, since it has a stigma associated with it... We probably have to change the name and be very careful about how the mod is explained, regardless of whether we try to Melee-ify the mod:
*deep voice*
"After playing a lot of Brawl, many were unsatisfied...and we sought to improve it without making everyone fall like rocks. We wanted combos, so we removed hitstun canceeling and added even more hitstun after that. We were tired of MK gimping everyone, so we buffed recoveries. But we were tired of no edgeguarding, so we buffed everyone else's edgeguarding. Then with edgeguarding being rather safe, if not terribly easy, we buffed onstage play to promote onstage play. And to do that we needed safer, stronger aerials and to get in most needed better approaches. Then with all that we realized KO moves were unnecessary at 200% after a combo, so we buffed KO moves. Then KOing was way too easy so many characters became even heavier and fall faster.
Now the characters have improved beyond most people's wildest dreams, pushing themselves as far as possible to keep up with each other. You will see crazy combos. You will see insane recoveries and ridiculous gimps. You will see incredibly early KOs and ridiculous survival from great DI. You will see comebacks that would seem possible only in 64 and from X-Factor-3-5-meter-Vergil. And you will see arguably the greatest Brawl mod ever created.
This... is Brawl Maximum."
Or something like that. Personally I don't support Melee-fication but do support re-packaging the mod (and renaming it) in order to try to clear away false notions about it and start fresh (since it was originally billed as "crazy" instead of "competitive" which is NOT how we would make a mod grow beyond people who just have fun with it, like much of the people here [rightfully] do).
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Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
If we increase the fall speeps and weight and gave everyone Fox-style airdodge, I'd have a name for that mod: Project M. Seriously, the way you described that makes it sound like a clone of PM. And while I do think many characters need changes, none of them should be too big. Also I like the name Brawl Minus. It's catchy.