Kien's Custom Minus Build
- Thread starter Kien
- Start date
Princess Delicious is in a bit of a strange spot. D-tilt is really the biggest issue at the moment. She may be included in the next patch (not Second, but Third) which will also contain some stage stuff hopefully. I wanted to include them in the second but it kept giving me freezes because my Common was too big or something. I was expecting some assistance from @The Concept but he hasn't been around seemingly.
Also, the Second patch is out now. Sorry for no stages. I'll be able to put them in as soon as I get things working properly with the CSS.
Also, the Second patch is out now. Sorry for no stages. I'll be able to put them in as soon as I get things working properly with the CSS.
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The Concept
Philosopher & Assassin
I lurk in the shadows. I'm never seen, but I've never left. Like I said before, just ask. However, I do have classes and work. Despite that, my records don't show any requests for assistance since my first offer, Kien.
tldr; SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKER
Time for your records to say otherwise. Messaging you now.
Thor
Well-Known Member
While I respect decisions made by Kien here, I would like to offer a suggestion: tone the endlag on knee down slightly, maybe to like 11 or 12 frames.
I know Melee isn't a baseline for anything, but knee in Melee was safe on shield with 9 frames of endlag. I can't seem to make knee safe on shield at all in Minus (I've done extremely low sweetspot knees and gotten shieldgrabbed while mashing jab to buffer one), so making this move even more punishable just leaves me a little sad inside.
I do understand making sure knee isn't then the same lag as uair (that'd be a little weird to be honest), but I don't think it needs more lag than stomps... also could bair go to 10 like Smash 4 or is he still just too fast?
I know Melee isn't a baseline for anything, but knee in Melee was safe on shield with 9 frames of endlag. I can't seem to make knee safe on shield at all in Minus (I've done extremely low sweetspot knees and gotten shieldgrabbed while mashing jab to buffer one), so making this move even more punishable just leaves me a little sad inside.
I do understand making sure knee isn't then the same lag as uair (that'd be a little weird to be honest), but I don't think it needs more lag than stomps... also could bair go to 10 like Smash 4 or is he still just too fast?
Thor
Well-Known Member
Too safe, made Falcon too good, if I remember correctly. I don't think knee is safe anyway and bair is laggier than Smash 4 now, which frankly just feels weird (might even be laggier than Brawl too???)
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Because this is Minus, not ******* Balanced Brawl. Half the fun of playing Minus Falcon is stringing together his aerials, especially Knees. Too much endlag ruins that. Enough with the overzealous Nerfing already.
Don't bring that artificial skill ceiling crap in here.
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Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
My bad, but you get what I mean.
Thor
Well-Known Member
My complaint was with landing lag.
It has a single strong hitbox and next to no priority [it is easily traded with or straight-up beaten out by many aerials like Fox.. everything except fair and badly placed uair, Pikachu bair should I think, other aerials]. I also think Falcon's knee should be safe on shield because it seems like everyone has one of those, but not Falcon from what I know (Falco's nair to jab, Sheik's got I think fair to jab, Pikachu can bair right on through... as far as I know, Falcon's really only got a spaced nair at best, which can be dash grabbed as far as I know).
Also it's the knee, aka an iconic Melee AND Minus move. If it ain't broken, act like it is and break it until it gets better. Safety for sweetspotting on shields very low to the ground seems reasonable to me.
I also just said I'd like dair and bair safer, but not safe (you can shieldgrab bair and dair, or even drop shield punish them). But with knee's GFX it's actually really easy to buffer shieldgrab, which I think is lame. Making it a 50-50 of jab their shield or run away instead of 100% shieldgrabs would be nice.
justadood
Just a dood with ideas
true, true... falcon is supposed to be fast, light, easy to control, and powerful, just like a good formula race car...
(although, by that logic, since falco prefers the air, he should be fast, floaty, have great aerial maneuverability, and be able to fire off quickly, like the arwing, whereas wolf, like the landmaster, should be heavy, fast on the ground, and be able to hit hard with his attacks, and fox, being better than them at both should have the best of both sides of the spectrum...)
Thor
Well-Known Member
That's just bad DI on the opponent's end. Hold down hard and tech it to avoid this.
Also Yoshi's usmash is safe on shield and this isn't. Which is weird.
So fucking uh... I didn't know anyone was commenting on this. BECAUSE REMAKING MY ACCOUNT HAS ME WITH NO FAVORED THREADS. THANKS A LOT PIN.
I'm gonna get to answering some things now.
Minus is too safe. This is for everyone to know. Kill moves shouldn't be safe on shield unless they have reason to be. Fast, powerful, and easy to land should not also be safe.
I'm gonna get to answering some things now.
I'm pretty sure I've been updating the overall changelist. If not, it would be updated in the individual patches inside of the character folders and whatnot.
As Falcon's most powerful move, I believe that knee should have the highest landing lag. It can also be true combo'd into out of a lot of stuff, making it the end all Falcon attack. I can tone down landing lag a bit, but this move kills earlier than Link's dair. Given that Link is slow in the air, he puts himself at more risk in using it. Falcon is hella maneuverable and capable of getting out of the way if he misses a knee. Part of my reasoning for increasing the endlag was to make the move harder to chain with shorthopped knees, because 0 to deaths aren't cool and I plan to remove all of them.
If half of minus falcon's fun comes from his fair, then he's not a well crafted character. Also, I wouldn't call the nerfing overzealous. Eventually, I'd like everyone to feel powerful, but removing one trick ponies is a must. I stand for balance, and I will achieve it. Not perfect balance because that isn't possible, but I'll be at least 20% more balanced than Minus for sure. When I hit that level, the power can rise again, but not in the areas that it's been seen.
Minus is too safe. This is for everyone to know. Kill moves shouldn't be safe on shield unless they have reason to be. Fast, powerful, and easy to land should not also be safe.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Knees don't chain unless one's DI is bad [coming from a guy who's been double knee'd too many times, in Melee, PM, and Minus <_<]. Also you really can't "remove" zero-deaths - Falcon would still technically have Falcon Kick -> usmash (or dair -> usmash) -> uair -> fair -> Fast Falcon Punch off the side, for instance, unless you reduced hitstun to where that's not possible, and Falco will still have fair -> fair -> fair from the ledge [I'd honestly like to see his fair become his nair and his nair become Falco Melee nair, but that might be more broken than current fair is, since current fair is broken in a lot of stupid ways but very bad outside of those situations, making it something that either chains someone way offstage or something that just sucks. My swap would improve his neutral but remove the stupidity of that zero-death.] Zero-deaths have been in every smash game so far [though in Smash 4 they require a few reads to set up the lethal offstage dair - ex Falcon dthrow uair uair uair dair], and I doubt you'll remove them.
If you're trying to remove "Standard" zero-deaths, I'd hope you've addressed DK's aerials [I don't remember if you have], those things can easily KO Fox from a single grab.
He said stringing aerials, not knees.
Grabs are safe on shield - you removing kill throws? And are you changing how Warlock Punch works??? Also, Yoshi's usmash is stupidly safe on shield, fix that then [I faced BC and almost lost to his Yoshi that was intentionally only using usmash, and it wasn't for me not trying, it's literally just the interruptible frames + shieldstun on that move are dumb, combined with the fact that at low percents it chains into itself two or three or more times on fastfallers].
By what percentage is Minus unbalanced? 73%?
Knee is easy to land? You mean a move with high startup, low priority [it loses to Falco's dair], and one you must sweetspot? I guess Falco's dair is going down the drain, since it's low startup, high power, and easier to land than the knee. Also RIP Pikachu's bair, Fox's shine, and Falcon Kick [though removing the JC except on hit would do the trick for Falco Kick].
Minus is "safe" because the punish game is unreal - at this point Minus is "It's very hard to get in, but about as rewarding as Brawl ICs landing a grab." This post frankly doesn't make much sense to me, because what you're doing is hardly Minus at all - Falcon's knee is strong because it's slow, low priority [any aerial beats it out during startup and good placement of nearly every nair straight up beats it, and you can trade with tons of other moves], and because Falcon sucks offstage and gets combo'd hard. DK's fair is the same way [though he's better offstage in my opinion and his fair trades a tad bit of startup for better priority, that is, more favorable hitbox placement].
He said especially knees. The start up and priority of an attack don't matter at all when you can true combo into it. Otherwise great spin would've been seen as useless. The other moves you named aren't moves that chain into themselves with the potential to kill in 3 hits. I'm not removing kill throws, either. I feel throws are one of the things that have reason to be safe on shield, it's the point of them after all.
The punish game being unreal is a big issue with me. The only moves that should be exceedingly hard to punish are moves that retreat and ranged attacks.
The punish game being unreal is a big issue with me. The only moves that should be exceedingly hard to punish are moves that retreat and ranged attacks.