Kien's Custom Minus Build

[Gold_TSG]

We view it differently because we use it differently. I've never had these issues you're bringing up because I play Falcon extremely well. I rarely have an instance where I can't combo into the knee in some way, except out of Falcon Kick.

As for Falco, the goodness of his dair is the fault of the devs for making it that way, instead of giving it a sweet and sour spot with varying meteor strength. Falcon's knee, outside of the flashy "HYES" is about as good as it is in melee, since the hitbox was minuscule in brawl. Honestly, the only thing I can think of that would be worth changing is the shield stun in which the knee forces on the opponent, as well as the shield push distance, both of which would make it less immediately punishable, while keeping perfect shielding the best option against it.

That, or just remove the hitlag, but then that removes the powerful, flashy feel of the move, which destroys the point of that addition. Falcon is supposed to be flashy and manly. It's a matter of concept vs competitive at that point.

 

[NEWB]

Well, doesn't Falco's Dair have a sweet and sourspot that does just that, gold? Maybe the power is the same but the sweepsot does sound different then the sourspot.

Actually, I'm mixing sweet and sourspots with the initial and lingering hitbox on Falcos dair. Nevermind.

 

[Thor]

We view it differently because we use it differently. I've never had these issues you're bringing up because I play Falcon extremely well. I rarely have an instance where I can't combo into the knee in some way, except out of Falcon Kick.

I combo everything into knee when my opponent isn't DIing well, but when they DI well, it all comes down to either Falcon Kick -> dair -> knee, the DI traps, or percent specific uairs. I have combed every non-throw Falcon has into knee [and dthrow], but that's not how it'd actually work vs someone who understands how to consistently combo DI well.

I also tend to think I play Falcon very efficiently, although you don't play Minus anymore so it's whatever.

As for Falco, the goodness of his dair is the fault of the devs for making it that way, instead of giving it a sweet and sour spot with varying meteor strength. Falcon's knee, outside of the flashy "HYES" is about as good as it is in melee, since the hitbox was minuscule in brawl. Honestly, the only thing I can think of that would be worth changing is the shield stun in which the knee forces on the opponent, as well as the shield push distance, both of which would make it less immediately punishable, while keeping perfect shielding the best option against it.

This would be fine with me. Falco's dair is designed that way because it's basically necessary for his onstage game - they'd have to make some tweaks to make his aerial game not suck outside of those dumb fair chains.

That, or just remove the hitlag, but then that removes the powerful, flashy feel of the move, which destroys the point of that addition. Falcon is supposed to be flashy and manly. It's a matter of concept vs competitive at that point.

We've already decided concept on other moves, I don't know that making the knee that way is better... is it possible to make the knee only be flashy on hitting a body, not shield?

Well, doesn't Falco's Dair have a sweet and sourspot that does just that, gold? Maybe the power is the same but the sweepsot does sound different then the sourspot.

Actually, I'm mixing sweet and sourspots with the initial and lingering hitbox on Falcos dair. Nevermind.

Initial and lingering are the same as sweetspot and sourspot - Fox nair has a sweetspot and sourspot, the initial strong hit and the lingering hit. We refer to them as initial and lingering because they do the same thing, whereas Falcon's knee has a sweetspot, initial hit and a sourspot lingering hit because they do different things. Ganondorf's Smash 4 dair just has a sweetspot and sourspot, since the hitboxes don't linger. It's a matter of convenience.

Power on Falco's strong dair [aka intial hit aka sweetspot] is higher than on weak dair [aka lingering hit aka sourspot], but it has the same angle, which is why it's so good.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

We view it differently because we use it differently. I've never had these issues you're bringing up because I play Falcon extremely well. I rarely have an instance where I can't combo into the knee in some way, except out of Falcon Kick.

I can combo into knee from FK easily. I just prefer upspec to be flashy and upsmash to kill.

 

[NEWB]

I always assumed sweet spots and sourspots had only to do with what part of the move hit them. Didn't know they were used in tandem with initial and lingering hit boxes.

 

[Thor]

I always assumed sweet spots and sourspots had only to do with what part of the move hit them. Didn't know they were used in tandem with initial and lingering hit boxes.

Spoiler: Maybe this is clear, maybe it isn't

I was referring to the vernacular we use... the sweestpot of a move is usually the part people want to land [sweetspot knee] but there's also some stuff about hitbox priorities - like Luigi's dair tends to send outward, but there's a meteor hitbox. In order to land the meteor, you must touch with only the meteor and not the sideways hitbox [which is why you may've heard people tell others to aim for Luigi's neck with it, that's about where the htibxo is]. The non-meteor has priority 1 (or 0, not sure if they start at 0 or 1) and the meteor has priority 2 (or 1), so if you hit with both hitboxes, ONLY the non-meteor KB and damage occurs.

I think then technically the meteor is the sourspot [or coded as such], but we call it the sweetspot.

To be clear, I'm pretty sure [not 100%, a dev member may know more] that initial and lingering hitboxes aren't hibox decay, so to speak, but actually merely replacing the hitboxes with other ones - the sweetspot on Falcon's knee "lingers" because there is some form of hitbox out for a while, but I believe what actually occurs is that for frames 15, 16, and 17 [if Minus kept Melee's 3-frame sweetspot] there is a knee hitbox that electrocutes and does like 18% or whatever. Then for frames 18-30 [or however long knee hitboxes last], those hitboxes are not there, BUT there is a hitbox that does weak KB and little damage with no element attached.

This is what I meant by lingering/initial hitboxes coupled with strong/weak - we call them sweetspot/sourspot because they are not the desired hitboxes [or are], initial/lingering because it is either early or late, and strong/weak for the same reason - but I believe a strong hitbox on a move never actually changes strength (that is, it does not weaken) but is simply replaced by the different hitbox.

As a result, sweetspot knee is the strong knee is the initial knee, and sourspot knee is the weak knee is the lingering knee. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

OH BABY A TRIPLE

 

[Gold_TSG]

Cleared up the triple.

But yes, sweet and sour boxes exist and one replaces the other after a certain amount of frames have passed. The example of Falcon's knee and Samus's nair are two examples. The initial attack hits hard right away, but gets weaker after it comes out (normally referred to as a sex attack). The usual purpose of such moves is to use the sour boxes to sorta hit and run some quick damage because they last so long, and generally have little landing lag.

 

[NEWB]

I know how and why you use them. I just didn't realize the terms were almost interchangeable.

 

[Thor]

OH BABY A TRIPLE

I had internet lag but didn't realize triple post occurred, since I shut my laptop off shortly after.

My apologies for that.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You're welcome.

Let's get back on track, shall we?

 

[justadood]

tldr.. you guys talk for annoyingly long times, and are arguing one after another to fill the page too... i don't care anymore: i have my opinion, you guys all sound like you're bickering, and i really don't want anything changed enough to keep arguing one way or the other..

 

[Neville]

(normally referred to as a sex attack)

Sex kick or sex kick hitbox. Never say sex attack ever again plz.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Not every attack that functions like that is a kick, so that would be labeling it wrong.

 

[Kien]

I always assumed sweet spots and sourspots had only to do with what part of the move hit them. Didn't know they were used in tandem with initial and lingering hit boxes.

That's because you're actually right and Thor isn't too keen on what really makes a sweetspot. The sweetspot isn't the most desirable hitbox. It's the most powerful. There are many situations where you'd rather hit with a sourspot than a sweetspot for combo ability instead of getting maximum knockback. The sourspot is always weaker, but not always less useful. An example of this is with my Roy moveset for Minus. He has sourspots on his tippers that actually allow for different follow ups but they deal less damage.

Initial and lingering hitboxes can and sometimes do coincide with sweet and sourspots but not for all attacks. Furthermore, there are actually cases of hitboxes getting weaker overtime and NOT being replaced by new hitboxes. Toon Link's dair is one of those moves. The damage actually changes without any other hitbox properties being altered. In PSA the event is called (Change hitbox damage)

Sex kick or sex kick hitbox. Never say sex attack ever again plz.

I often use the term sex punch for some characters.

 

[Thor]

That's because you're actually right and Thor isn't too keen on what really makes a sweetspot. The sweetspot isn't the most desirable hitbox. It's the most powerful. There are many situations where you'd rather hit with a sourspot than a sweetspot for combo ability instead of getting maximum knockback. The sourspot is always weaker, but not always less useful. An example of this is with my Roy moveset for Minus. He has sourspots on his tippers that actually allow for different follow ups but they deal less damage.

Initial and lingering hitboxes can and sometimes do coincide with sweet and sourspots but not for all attacks. Furthermore, there are actually cases of hitboxes getting weaker overtime and NOT being replaced by new hitboxes. Toon Link's dair is one of those moves. The damage actually changes without any other hitbox properties being altered. In PSA the event is called (Change hitbox damage)


I often use the term sex punch for some characters.

Sweetspots are *usually* most desirable. Falcon's knee is the usual example.

Doc's nair has a late sweetspot in Melee for the record.

Was unaware hitboxes can decay in damage - was unsure if that was a feature or not. Good to know.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Sweetspots = max damage and KB
Sourspots = less damage and KB, but makes it easier to follow up with extra attacks for more damage throughout a combo. On top of that, these sour spot sex attacks make it easier and safer to return to the ground.

Which, pray tell, is more desirable over the length of a match? Even the sourspot of Falcon's knee does this.

 

[Thor]

Sweetspots = max damage and KB
Sourspots = less damage and KB, but makes it easier to follow up with extra attacks for more damage throughout a combo. On top of that, these sour spot sex attacks make it easier and safer to return to the ground.

Which, pray tell, is more desirable over the length of a match? Even the sourspot of Falcon's knee does this.

Falco's sweetspot dair is easier to follow up with extra attacks for more damage at low percents, since it launches them into an area more appreciable for his SH aerials.

Fox's sourspot nair is minus on block, but strong nair is I think 0 on block [or maybe even positive], so Fox's strong nair is safer for landing on shield.

It would seem that outside of identifying direct characteristics [damage decay, hitbox size, hitbox trajectory, damage and KB/KBG], trying to classify these moves is difficult.

Also we can discuss it but it seems unrelated to modding Minus.

 

[Gold_TSG]

We aren't talking about what's safer on shield for my example. We're talking about overall utility. There are simply better choices to throw out for not-attacking-a-shield.

Thor bby stop attacking those shields.

 

[Thor]

We aren't talking about what's safer on shield for my example. We're talking about overall utility. There are simply better choices to throw out for not-attacking-a-shield.

Thor bby stop attacking those shields.

I don't attack shields very often except with Falco's nair and jab. And grabs.

I guess it's just a kinda lame habit from PM/Melee that I knee shields [it's hilariously bad in Smash 4 as well], but one I'm working over. It mostly annoys me when I try to knee someone's tech roll and they get shield up before I'm there.

Also I Falcon Kick the backside of shields a lot, as well as Pikachu fsmash and Marth shieldbreaker. I might have to stop the Pikachu fsmash in 4.0, but for the foreseeable future I will continue to attack shields with shieldbreaker.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Well ya gotta understand that personal habits don't put the attacks at fault.

 

[Thor]

Well ya gotta understand that personal habits don't put the attacks at fault.

That doesn't mean the attack doesn't suck, it just means other movset choice is required.

Which is something I think I finished fixing today in Minus. I still want the change, but at this point it just adds another option in neutral, instead of removing one that seems necessary.

 

[Gold_TSG]

There really is no reason tho. The only time you'd get grabbed out of shield is if you do something wrong. If you get shielded, you used the attack at the wrong time. As far as I can remember, the knee causes shield stun with a push, already making it hard for them to grab you right off while everyone is frozen.

Honestly, there is no reason you'd ever want to purposely attack a shield outside of two circumstances: pressure, and with intent to break it. Knee isn't good for pressure because of the pause, and because the pause is there, you, as the player, are supposed to know that using it for such is a bad idea, just like how the landing lag in smash 4 is a red flag for abusing it to try and hit people on the ground. It's not the attack's fault that you're using it in a way that wasn't intended.

 

[Valravn]

Hmm, I think I'll give these a whirl. Something new to tide me over until the 2017 4.0 release.

How much of these changes might end up going through?

 

[Bent 00]

I think I've made it known, but I've basically retired from Minus. Haven't touched the game in months[...]

Kien, are you still working on this, or are you finished with it? Still waiting for Patch 3.

What do you think of 4.0b? Do you like the higher gravity?