Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
PROJECT STREET KOMBAT TEKKEN ALL-STAR BROS. MINUS FEATURING DANTE.
BRAWL MINUS DEV STREAM! SUNDAY 8PM EST/5PM PST
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Glyph
Moderator
You two are so ridiculous lol, how are you not getting this? Look at how absurd your logic is:
-Its the only suicide move!
That's because its on GANON. You dummies, of course jiggs can recover from more stuff she has a like a million jumps. You're better off asking for Ganon's recovery to be buffed, and if you push that you don't really get balance. Also, blatently untrue since plenty of moves will result in your death offstage.
-But how come Falcon can do it and not Ganon?!
BECAUSE GANON SUCKS AT RECOVERING. Falcon is all about mobility and going fast and then going faster. OF COURSE Ganon isn't going to be able to do that too.
-But -similar move/concept- is in Minus already!
AND? How do you not get that just because one character gets something that doesn't entitle your character to that same thing? Pushing that logic is about as likely as getting 10 jumps on Bowser because its not fair jiggs gets so many (can you imagine though)
I'm so so so sick of reading about this shit, I've been gone for literal months and you're STILL harping on it. If you genuinely think that Ganon is somehow entitled to anything more than the pity on hit cancel you've already received then you are sorely mistaken. If you want to use Ganon punch offstage, DO IT. Tons of kills are all about going in deeper than you can recover from, and THAT is style. With your ez-mode offstage punch you literally could try it every time they were offstage. And it would just be boring and watered down. That's not style, that's 'make this game easy for me'.
EDIT: If I ever see anyone cite something being a 'signature move' as grounds for balance I'm going to lose any and all respect for them immediately.
Also sorry this is super harsh but WOW I am really tired of this mess.
-Its the only suicide move!
That's because its on GANON. You dummies, of course jiggs can recover from more stuff she has a like a million jumps. You're better off asking for Ganon's recovery to be buffed, and if you push that you don't really get balance. Also, blatently untrue since plenty of moves will result in your death offstage.
-But how come Falcon can do it and not Ganon?!
BECAUSE GANON SUCKS AT RECOVERING. Falcon is all about mobility and going fast and then going faster. OF COURSE Ganon isn't going to be able to do that too.
-But -similar move/concept- is in Minus already!
AND? How do you not get that just because one character gets something that doesn't entitle your character to that same thing? Pushing that logic is about as likely as getting 10 jumps on Bowser because its not fair jiggs gets so many (can you imagine though)
I'm so so so sick of reading about this shit, I've been gone for literal months and you're STILL harping on it. If you genuinely think that Ganon is somehow entitled to anything more than the pity on hit cancel you've already received then you are sorely mistaken. If you want to use Ganon punch offstage, DO IT. Tons of kills are all about going in deeper than you can recover from, and THAT is style. With your ez-mode offstage punch you literally could try it every time they were offstage. And it would just be boring and watered down. That's not style, that's 'make this game easy for me'.
EDIT: If I ever see anyone cite something being a 'signature move' as grounds for balance I'm going to lose any and all respect for them immediately.
Also sorry this is super harsh but WOW I am really tired of this mess.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
We all kinda are tired of hearing about it.
Link has mortal draw cuz it's one of his hidden skills from TP and all zelda characters but toon link are from TP. As it is now, it can't be used on its own except with an unreliable deku nut. Dev stream also stated that mortal draw will lose its ability to kill.
Link has mortal draw cuz it's one of his hidden skills from TP and all zelda characters but toon link are from TP. As it is now, it can't be used on its own except with an unreliable deku nut. Dev stream also stated that mortal draw will lose its ability to kill.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
They actually confirmed that it will kill 100% of the time now. 3.Q Mortal Draw wouldn't kill Bowser cross-stage on Hyrule Castle at 0%.
Thor
Well-Known Member
There's literally only moves that induce helplessness and Warlock Punch. If the dev team just says "guess what, we want Warlock Punch to leave you helpless", then fine. That's dumb, and I'll continue to think it's dumb. But I dare you to name other suicide moves that aren't recovery ones, because I frankly I can't name them [unless you are using them wholly ineptly - but no matter how you use Warlock Punch, you whiff, you die].
Falcon sucks at recovery too, I don't see your point. I'll show you the gif in my status if you need me to prove the point [and link you to videos of various people destroying his recovery]. The problem isn't Dorf recovery either, it's just endlag on the punch. If there was less endlag OR an upward boost, problem solved. But people here are blatantly against that because they're scared of someone throwing a ridiculously tiny hitbox offstage, when 'Dorf's dair is also basically a zero-death offstage [and his side+b is if you're frame-perfect, since you can cancel it where they die and you don't].
Giving a character a special that is literal suicide to use offstage because it is insanely slow is just stupid. I'll stand by that. It's not any more stylish to me to hit it when there is a cancel than when there isn't, it's the hitting it at all that looks cool [and combo videos don't know the difference either].
You're also holding a fundamental contradiction that's been around for a while - "This move is so bad you'll never hit it so the cancel is useless" and "This move would be too good because it would be easy mode if you didn't die every time you whiffed", when in reality, it's "This move sucks, but we don't want to let people even try to style unless they have to SD every time they whiff, which theoretically is every time. This move should suck because if someone happens to hit it they look dumb." That's stupid and anti-Minus [where everything should be useful]. If you're going to make the move useless in the air [ala Pit's whip], then CHANGE THE MOVE IN THE AIR. To be totally honest, if the team opted for a significantly faster warlock punch in the air [ala Smash 4] that did only 18%, but you didn't SD when using it and missing, I would be 100% behind that. But as it stands, the move is useless and can't even be used in a game full of zero-deaths, since here more than almost everywhere else, 1 stock is not a lead [especially with Ganondorf's horrible neutral game].
Max-range boomerang draw-in where you start the draw immediately facing the other way links properly. Hard to setup, but it happens [I've done it].
Oops, Sonic's dair OHKOs (YAY TRUE SPIKE). If done correctly, Falco can do stupid things to zero-death an offstage person at 0% with it (I've done it) But you said something about "moves offstage with no risk" and all of those moves are FAR less risky than warlock punch. And also, you might say "Those take skill, WP doesn't", but with WP, you frontload all the risk and execution into aiming/timing, whereas the others can usually get more immediate, but less substantial payoffs, since timing/aiming is so much easier.
I was being sarcastic, since your writing along the lines of "everything should be super risky" implied edgeguarding should be suicidal [like, Peach dtilt is riskless too] hence street figher [no ledges], and fun-cancelling (since nothing is only for kicks) so we PM, hence PM Street Fighter, [starring Dante].
If I missed someone, I'll address it later, but this was what I saw.
Ganon's flying Warlock Punch was originally supposed to be used in the air as a recovery move when you got sent really high due to DIing really well. I have no idea why you and Bent are insisting that it should be used as an edge guarding move when its original purpose was recovery.
We Linkin Park now.
I have composed a haiku for this situation.
Fish stink and I hate them
They have creepy googly eyes
Therefore I won't do this
They have creepy googly eyes
Therefore I won't do this
(In all honesty though, we'll see what happens.)
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Rest isn't a definite suicide offstage until they reduce the number of jumps Jiggs has in 4.0.
Jiggs can ledgegrab out of Sing IIRC. Besides, it's pointless to Sing over empty space, since only grounded opponents are affected.
Tap B when using IC's Hammer Spin to gain height. Not a guaranteed suicide.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Rest can be recovered from, Sing is useless in the air [unless it puts people to sleep in air, which it doesn't] and grabs ledges, Squall hammer is a recovery move. Warlock Punch can't be recovered from on whiff, actually does stuff to people in the air, and is impractical [at best] as a recovery move.
This second half is a Minus vision thingy Glyph was discussing earlier. We're at an impasse.
But I seriously can't understand why everyone both insists the move is impossibly bad and then insists the move would be broken if it were impossibly bad but not suicidal [ez mode as others have said]. There's a clear contradiction here.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Stone? I thought he could revert out of it in time to save himself.
justadood
Just a dood with ideas
You know kirby can escape brick mode and has the jumps and recovery--
--- while jiggs has the jumps but no cancel, and neither does yoshi or bowser for that matter, and off stage yoshis and bowsersit isn't as sure to kill but certain to get killed, and on stage yoshis and bowsers has little effect once hitting the ground... or wait, what mod or game did bowsers spike in?.. and yeah, kirby gets the jumos AND recovery, while jiggs just gets jumps which are getting reduced
justadood
Just a dood with ideas
also, my input on the ganon thing:
ganon could just get slightly higher jumps and/or slightly reduced weight so he could start the WP from a higher point, that way it won't end with him as far beneath the stage.. if either of those would effect the rest of him too much, then to specifically edit the WP and nothing else, you can just make it so you fall a little slower during the entire animation (for the first one in air only), or you could make it so just during the end of the animation it interrupts the speed he was falling at and maybe stalls him in midair when it releases... otherwise maybe make his UpB off the ground not go into helpless and go a little higher, or make it interrupt-able so you could use WP during it with a little upward momentum so by the time it punches you are just a little lower than the start height, or just make it launch you high enough that the interrupt isn't necessary to have him at that height when it's over... this could work a little better since it would make the setup a lot easier to detect, and would be a LOT more predictable, but still not suicidal as much as punishable...
otherwise, what if he was given something like falcon's current ultrataunt instant punch as an ultrataunt, except just with reduced endlag on the punch instead of coming out sooner...
btw, iirc i thought the OHC was taken off of WP in 3Q? i don't remember seeing it when i played last... although it has been a while... but any of those would work without the OHC to it, and if it is in there, then i guess i don't mind that instead of one of these, except it would be lame in that rather than being risky in if you miss your foe can punish you, and if you hit, you have to try just as hard to get back, you'd just be given an easy recovery for landing the move, and not need to be punished cause if you miss you die, regardless of your foe's compitence
...i don't know as a ganon player, i'd rather my foes have to put at least some effort into not just dodging a kamikaze, but punishing it to secure the kill, and i think it would be more satisfying when playing against a ganon that misses to knock him out like "not today!", but that's JUST A DOOD's opinion
ganon could just get slightly higher jumps and/or slightly reduced weight so he could start the WP from a higher point, that way it won't end with him as far beneath the stage.. if either of those would effect the rest of him too much, then to specifically edit the WP and nothing else, you can just make it so you fall a little slower during the entire animation (for the first one in air only), or you could make it so just during the end of the animation it interrupts the speed he was falling at and maybe stalls him in midair when it releases... otherwise maybe make his UpB off the ground not go into helpless and go a little higher, or make it interrupt-able so you could use WP during it with a little upward momentum so by the time it punches you are just a little lower than the start height, or just make it launch you high enough that the interrupt isn't necessary to have him at that height when it's over... this could work a little better since it would make the setup a lot easier to detect, and would be a LOT more predictable, but still not suicidal as much as punishable...
otherwise, what if he was given something like falcon's current ultrataunt instant punch as an ultrataunt, except just with reduced endlag on the punch instead of coming out sooner...
btw, iirc i thought the OHC was taken off of WP in 3Q? i don't remember seeing it when i played last... although it has been a while... but any of those would work without the OHC to it, and if it is in there, then i guess i don't mind that instead of one of these, except it would be lame in that rather than being risky in if you miss your foe can punish you, and if you hit, you have to try just as hard to get back, you'd just be given an easy recovery for landing the move, and not need to be punished cause if you miss you die, regardless of your foe's compitence
...i don't know as a ganon player, i'd rather my foes have to put at least some effort into not just dodging a kamikaze, but punishing it to secure the kill, and i think it would be more satisfying when playing against a ganon that misses to knock him out like "not today!", but that's JUST A DOOD's opinion
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
None of you seem to even understand your own arguments. You're asking for moves that put people into helpless offstage. Ledge grabbing has nothing to do with it. Rest, doesn't matter if you can recover from just because she has the jumps. What the fuck are you doing resting offstage? Sing, doesn't matter if it grabs ledges, you basically die if you use it offstage. Squall hammer isn't a main recovery move, nor is it a GOOD recovery move. It's a secondary recovery at best, and still puts you in a bad spot, on top of throwing you into helpless if you miss the stage.
This is the last time I am going to say this:
DORF SHOULD NOT BE USING HIS GODDAMN PUNCH OFF THE STAGE IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. "STYLE" IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO CHANGE HOW AN ATTACK FUNCTIONS.
If you want it doing something differently from the official release, code it yourself. Otherwise, stop fucking begging. You've been told "NO" countless times by the modding team, the people in charge. How is this so hard to accept?
This is the last time I am going to say this:
DORF SHOULD NOT BE USING HIS GODDAMN PUNCH OFF THE STAGE IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. "STYLE" IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO CHANGE HOW AN ATTACK FUNCTIONS.
If you want it doing something differently from the official release, code it yourself. Otherwise, stop fucking begging. You've been told "NO" countless times by the modding team, the people in charge. How is this so hard to accept?
To respond to people saying rest is not always suicidal offstage if your high enough......neither is WP. If your high enough.
The bottom line is that WP was designed to be the single most powerful single hitting move in the game. It not being EXTREMELY RISKY, encourages doing either mindless things JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN, or doing them because the reward greatly outweighs the risks.
Ganon having the option to WP offstage, even if fairly risky but not suicidal, IS NOT RISKY ENOUGH. If you want to use a move that YOU KNOW IS SUPER RISKY, BUT COULD RESULT IN AN INSTANT KILL + STYLE, you should DESERVE to die on whiff. Not dying from whiffing an instant kill move OFFSTAGE, is totally bonkers. It's less about balance, and more about principal.
There are FAR more rewards than there is risk if you don't die on whiff. Any points that it's just as risky as rest or Falcon Punch doesn't matter because that's situational. Ganon needs a surefire drawback on throwing out the strongest move in the game and missing. A punishment that will ALWAYS go through. Not a punishment that may or may not ever happen.
To conclude: Dying is the only surefire punishment that is sufficient for throwing out a move that instakills offstage. Non suicidal WP would not have enough risk for the reward. Reward being "Oh shit, i just got killed instantly no matter the percent" and punishment on whiff being "Oh well, i didn't hit. Maybe he wont punish me hard." Punishment for an instakill OFFSTAGE should be guaranteed, not up to the opponent. And above all else, it's not a balance issue, but an issue of principal and going against our philosophy of game design.
I am sorry, but my vote and personal opinion is that WP offstage should be punished with death. It should always result in one player dying regardless of whiff or hit, as that's what the move is designed to do. No other moves in the game has been designed that way. Just WP. That's why there are no other OHKO moves in the game that can be done offstage that i know of.
And now, i will be going to sleep. Im not trying to say the idea is bad, Bent. Nor am i saying that your bad for wanting it. Im simply saying that it doesn't fit in with our idea of what minus should and shouldn't have.
The bottom line is that WP was designed to be the single most powerful single hitting move in the game. It not being EXTREMELY RISKY, encourages doing either mindless things JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN, or doing them because the reward greatly outweighs the risks.
Ganon having the option to WP offstage, even if fairly risky but not suicidal, IS NOT RISKY ENOUGH. If you want to use a move that YOU KNOW IS SUPER RISKY, BUT COULD RESULT IN AN INSTANT KILL + STYLE, you should DESERVE to die on whiff. Not dying from whiffing an instant kill move OFFSTAGE, is totally bonkers. It's less about balance, and more about principal.
There are FAR more rewards than there is risk if you don't die on whiff. Any points that it's just as risky as rest or Falcon Punch doesn't matter because that's situational. Ganon needs a surefire drawback on throwing out the strongest move in the game and missing. A punishment that will ALWAYS go through. Not a punishment that may or may not ever happen.
To conclude: Dying is the only surefire punishment that is sufficient for throwing out a move that instakills offstage. Non suicidal WP would not have enough risk for the reward. Reward being "Oh shit, i just got killed instantly no matter the percent" and punishment on whiff being "Oh well, i didn't hit. Maybe he wont punish me hard." Punishment for an instakill OFFSTAGE should be guaranteed, not up to the opponent. And above all else, it's not a balance issue, but an issue of principal and going against our philosophy of game design.
I am sorry, but my vote and personal opinion is that WP offstage should be punished with death. It should always result in one player dying regardless of whiff or hit, as that's what the move is designed to do. No other moves in the game has been designed that way. Just WP. That's why there are no other OHKO moves in the game that can be done offstage that i know of.
And now, i will be going to sleep. Im not trying to say the idea is bad, Bent. Nor am i saying that your bad for wanting it. Im simply saying that it doesn't fit in with our idea of what minus should and shouldn't have.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I feel like all this discussion of style and Ganondorf sorely needs a Bizzaro Flame joke, but I can't think of one.
Squall hammer is REALLY good for recovery - it keeps the climbers together [allowing for more quickly moving to offense] and it's invincible [or it said that in a changelog somewhere], meaning that it's arguably the best in the game if you can grab ledge with it [which is feasible but tricky, and there's a mixup with landing onstage since it has a bit of aerial endlag prior to ledgegrab if needed]. If there's no I-frames then I retract the statement that it's "good", but it's still a primary means of recovery for a solo climber [and none too shabby at that].
I rest offstage to look like Hbox at 5:55 BRUH: [and in Minus he could recover from that unless the deathzones are too high - they're not on FD, not sure about Yoshi's].
There's a critical flaw in your reasoning - you do a risk/reward analysis, but fail to account for reliability - sure the payoff is immense and the risk is low, so if warlock punch was easy to hit, I'd understand. The move only lands once in a blue moon - as far as I can tell, Falcon Punch and Falco's dair both have significantly higher risk/reward/reliability ratios because Falcon Punch isn't suicidal and Falco's dair is extremely reliable AND highly rewarding. If we're going with risk/reward, then I guess I'll have to develop my own build or simply use a build from before 4.0, because that would make Falco dair nerfs inevitable, unless the dev team wants a blatant contradiction sitting in their mod.
Besides, if your opponent is competent, a Ganondorf offstage is a dead one, and the opponent recovering around it should make sure of that.
BUT I don't want to remove that out of the player's hands. If you think they should always be dead, if Ganondorf's recovery is so bad, the player should go out there and kill him for his arrogance in presuming he can warlock punch and return safely. Watching my opponent fall to their death after failing to style is never satisfying, it's just annoying - I want to make them pay in return, not just watch them sort of fall helplessly. Removing the punish game out of my control (now how am I able to style back if he can never make it back?) is lame and I think a very poor design choice.
And punishing it is extremely easy. Versus half the cast, Ganondorf will basically always die to a dair/other meteor [hit him out of his double jump and he's outta there since meteor cancelling won't get him high enough]. You can also 50-50 with him having to uair or get footstooled out of his DJ [also certain death], and you can also hit him out repeatedly with various moves that aren't meteors (it's really easy as Sheik, Luigi, Marth, Mario, Pikachu, Falcon, another dorf, Ike, the list goes on).
But stating that a punishment should always go through is absurd. If your opponent is too incompetent to recover in time to punish a move with over a second and a half of startup [considering our lagless ledges], they don't deserve free punishes encoded by the devs. Make the players earn their punishes, and don't punish them for attempting to utilize moves in ways you wouldn't. That's why the punch was cancellable in the first place - if you couldn't intercept it prior to launch, then you darn well didn't deserve to punish it, at least in Minus where everyone moves demonically fast (or is Bowser and has enough armor to eat through anything Dorf could do after a cancel).
Seems like the team is more interested in trying to make sure the move is never used [or somehow scared of it being used] than they are of making a move fun.
...And at the same time, I'm positive this will just get people to type in big angry words at me that ultimately accomplish nothing.
*** Also I hope people noted above that I would also be ok with an aerial version of the punch that was rather weak (like 18%) that would be able to be recovered from.
Lightning
Ikesexual
Tattoo this to my soul please.
Mawootad
Minus Backroom
Warlock punch has always done 666% damage and will always do 666% damage. There will be no weakening of the punch. This is not negotiable. Also the punch was cancelable so that if you got shielded you could roll and not die. Being cancelable for general purpose usage was an oversight. So please, stop trying to warlock punch as an edgeguard. It would be more effective to do literally anything else. Doing it for style is cool and all, but you'd be more stylish if you were actually semi-confident that you were gonna land the punch instead of going fishing all day long.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Also Gandouken is gonna become a huge badasss wave of death. This looks like it can kill if it hits anything while they are both offstage. So there is that.
I wouldn't be against a weater warlock punch in the air.
I've seen melee Ganon videos. Disrespecting with wiz kick is a favorite and makes the crowd go bonkers. This would be the case in minus but wiz kick always spikes. You can probably blame the devs then for taking away Ganon's only means of style.
I wouldn't be against a weater warlock punch in the air.
I've seen melee Ganon videos. Disrespecting with wiz kick is a favorite and makes the crowd go bonkers. This would be the case in minus but wiz kick always spikes. You can probably blame the devs then for taking away Ganon's only means of style.
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