AeroIncarnated
The Only Hero
I'm probably 420 years old at this point. The only time I sleep is in my grave.
BRAWL MINUS DEV STREAM! SUNDAY 8PM EST/5PM PST
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40. EVEN WITH CRUISE CONTROL YOU STILL HAVE TO STEER.
justadood
Just a dood with ideas
When you guys said pancake snake i was expecting
a statue of this
made out of these
INB4 TOO MUCH SMASH
AeroIncarnated
The Only Hero
oh no.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Something something I think you got an infraction anyway.
Something tells me there's a belief that power > actual utility because once in a blue moon is still too much for an OHKO [to them, not me]. They intended it to serve zero functions [essentially, removing his neutral B would not change the character, since gandouken is too slow to fire except as a ridiculously bad edgeguard], and so when it accidentally had the potential to be used in a [still obscenely useless] non-suicidal manner [that is, when your opponent isn't able to move wherever at will if they aren't committed to an attack's lag], they said "too much" and removed it.
Also something something risk/reward vs risk/reward/reliability/zillions of other Rs, where since reward is maxed they feel evaluating other Rs or other letters [usability for U or whatever] doesn't matter.
My guess as to what they think.
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
You mention me being a main, but not a developer. How does that make my opinion matter any less? I was part of the BR at one time as one of the main testers of the mod, and even then, it was discussed with a ganondorf main as to why it shouldn't be included. I imagine none of this has changed since I left, and I made it blatant on Skype what the situation was. I find it kinda disrespectful that you keep going on with this and making me feel like the time I spent debating with you over it personally in a civil manner was a complete waste of my time.
You claim the team is adamant about not changing it, but the same could be said about how much you keep pushing for it. What is the real reason you want this in the official release? Given that the team has said no, what exactly drives you to push this hard instead of keeping it in your own build and letting the curious seek it out for themselves?
You claim the team is adamant about not changing it, but the same could be said about how much you keep pushing for it. What is the real reason you want this in the official release? Given that the team has said no, what exactly drives you to push this hard instead of keeping it in your own build and letting the curious seek it out for themselves?
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Was Gold always a moderator and I just never noticed?
Valravn
Well-Known Member
My bad, posted at the same time as Gold there. I hope that wasn't interpreted as a jab.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Was interpreted as a neutral B.
Also your argument is simply another ridiculously ineffective strawman. You can try to peg the argument as something else all you want, but that doesn't mean you somehow make a counterargument when all do you is mock something.
That said, it's not up for further discussion, so it really doesn't mean much... I think Bent was curious as to why the devs think Ganondorf should have an intentionally useless move, outside of I guess maybe one MU [Bowser], but at this point it's neither here nor there.
Gold was made a moderator just recently.
AeroIncarnated
The Only Hero
Is it finally over?
Mawootad
Minus Backroom
The punch portion of warlock punch will never be a "good" move from a competitive perspective as it doing 666% damage is part of Minus's identity and that makes it impossible to be a competitive move. There is nothing anyone can do or say to change that. If you want a competitive neutral special use the hadouken which isn't safe in the air for what I believe are obvious reasons. So if you want usability things related to the hadouken cool, but the punch isn't changing.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
I get that it's a "Minus Staple", but it could easily be put on a toggle (Side Taunt) which switches between the OHKO and a more useful form of the move. IMO, the OHKO Punch should be 'Dorf's Secret Taunt. This setup works well for Falcon.
Just saying it could be done, and that it's a compromise that should make both sides happy.
But that's Custom territory, so back to the Custom WP thread I go...
Mawootad
Minus Backroom
Yeah, it's a good idea, but the Warlock Punch OHKO is above "Minus Staple", it's one something that defines what Minus is and thus not something that cannot be changed without fundamentally weakening the identity of the mod. So even if someone comes up with a Warlock Punch that's just all around admittedly better than a slow, unsafe OHKO we still wouldn't change things (and in case anyone is wondering, that's basically the only gameplay related thing that's not up for debate).
Thor
Well-Known Member
The punch could be a "good" move if this game had enough shieldstun to ever make shieldbreaks remotely possible (although I'm sure it's getting patched, I was working on ways to force shieldbreaks with Pikachu, since fsmash could single-handedly widdle away about 75% of a shield or more - it was tricky but I managed to force one or two and land full-power skull bash). But Ganondorf lacks the moves to force a shieldbreak with any semblance of reliability (no autocancel on dair is really what makes this so hard as far as I know, unless I just need to mess with nair more). Like, if he had some way to make someone at least fear a shieldbreaking move [one that did ~50% of a shield's health while not being terribly slow - maybe fsmash does this, but it seems not to...], I'd be ok with it, but since he can't even do that AND the punch suicides offstage, I wasn't happy, which is why I wanted the no suiciding that the team hates.
The hadouken sucks. Anyone with a projectile that stuns can easily punish the startup on reaction (like you'll basically never pull it off vs Samus), and those without a projectile are almost always fast enough to close the gap [expect maybe Bowser crossFD, and even he can get close and RR through it]. Some have a projectile and a reflector which makes it even worse (as Fox/Wolf stand just outside punch range and hold down+B, they either fire the punch and you jump out and punish endlag or get the projectile to the face - and keep in mind these two can side+b from halfway across stage on reaction to do this with good spacing).
It's at best a highly situational edgeguarding tool that still has massive startup and can be avoided by solid recoveries easily (and probably the bad ones too, as I don't usually have issues getting around it with the characters I use with more lackluster recovery). It's probably somewhat useful vs Bowser and on stages with walls [repeatedly fire it into a wall while hugging the wall to be hard to hit by characters without disjoints (though still vulnerable)], but that's about it.
That's part of why I liked a twist on the taunt suggestion - default is the punch we know, but the taunt mode is only ever the projectile with less startup (normal endlag) - still slow, but not slow enough to completely suck. And with that idea already shot down in the hearts of the dev team, back to the customs thread...
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