BRAWL MINUS DEV STREAM! SUNDAY 8PM EST/5PM PST

[Pin Clock]

It could have the most awesome on-hit effects in the game (like SAHunterMech's GanoNuke GFX), but no one is going to attempt it in a remotely serious match if they're guaranteed to suicide for trying. The whole point of my arguments for changes to Warlock Punch is to make it a useable move offstage. This is Minus, there's no good reason it should be the only Move in the game that is always suicidal offstage.

Warlock Punch is an incredibly fun move, and fun things are fun. Thus Warlock Punch. Not everything has to be super serious, especially not in Minus of all things.

"Ultimate Disrespect" is "Ultimate Worthless" if you never use it.

Not every move is designed to be practical in every situation. That's why characters have more than 1 move. This is Brawl Minus, not Dive Kick.

As I've said countless times already, SFWP is supposed to be 'Dorf's least practical, most stylish offstage kill move. It's never supposed to be the best option -- F-Air, Wiz Kick, Flame Choke, and D-Air will always be safer choices -- SFWP is supposed to be that awesome move you consider going for when you have the lead, and want to show off, without throwing away a stock.

Yes, thus why it would be a disrespect and why the cancel is there if you can pull it off. If you are Warlock Punching off-stage, you have to accept the risk of missing and dying. That would be why you would even consider using Warlock Punch in the air in the first place over literally anything else.

This is Minus, there's no good reason it should be the only Move in the game that is always suicidal offstage.

There is nothing in Minus' philosophy anywhere that states tossing OHKOs offstage should be safe.
Also Rest exists.

 

[Bent 00]

Also Rest exists.

Until 'Puff loses some jumps, Rest is not always suicidal offstage.

 

[Pin Clock]

Until 'Puff loses some jumps, Rest is not always suicidal offstage.

Puff is losing some jumps.

 

[Bent 00]

There is nothing in Minus' philosophy anywhere that states tossing OHKOs offstage should be safe.

So make it not a OHKO in the air? I'd gladly give up the 666% damage in exchange for offstage usability without suiciding. Even with the OHKO, though, that's only active for 2 measly frames. You can see it coming from a mile away, and it's easy to dodge and punish.

How about adding some armor, like WP has in SM4SH? The OHKO is holding back WP; that is one of the main excuses that keeps popping up for not improving it. "It's a OHKO, it's supposed to be bad". That's fine for something like Link's Mortal Draw; it's tucked away as a Secret Taunt. 'Dorf's got a big, useless OHKO weighing down his Neutral B. His Signature Move.

Of course you're gonna say the OHKO is a Minus Staple, though, right? Well, why not hide it away in a Secret Taunt like Link's? Make the normal WP closer to vBrawl strength, maybe give it some armor, and make it safe to use offstage. Make Side Taunt switch to the 666% OHKO for one use, or until the Taunt is pressed again.

Puff is losing some jumps.

Going to sleep offstage should be suicidal. Throwing out your Signature Move offstage should not be.

 

[Pin Clock]

Going to sleep offstage should be suicidal. Throwing out your Signature Move offstage should not be.

Rest IS Jigglypuff's signature move in Smash Bros.

As for everything else, I've already explained all of my reasonings for why it's not being changed or moved or being made more practically useful almost a year ago.

 

[Bent 00]

Rest IS Jigglypuff's signature move in Smash Bros.

Going to sleep offstage =/= Throwing a Flying Punch offstage. One deserves to suicide, the other doesn't.

 

[Pin Clock]

Going to sleep offstage =/= Throwing a Flying Punch offstage. One deserves to suicide, the other doesn't.

You forget that Warlock Punch is an OHKO move while Rest, while powerful, is not.

It's not really comparable, from a gameplay perspective.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

Going to sleep offstage should be suicidal. Throwing out your Signature Move offstage should not be.

Aether offstage. Not a OHKO but still a signature move. Offstage, if not used as a recovery, you die.

Flare Blade offstage charged. OHKO and suicidal. Let's give it an on-hit cancel.

EDIT: PK Flash is debatable.

 

[Bent 00]

You forget that Warlock Punch is an OHKO move while Rest, while powerful, is not.

It's not really comparable, from a gameplay perspective.

So make it not a OHKO in the air? I'd gladly give up the 666% damage in exchange for offstage usability without suiciding. Even with the OHKO, though, that's only active for 2 measly frames. You can see it coming from a mile away, and it's easy to dodge and punish.

The OHKO is holding back WP; that is one of the main excuses that keeps popping up for not improving it. "It's a OHKO, it's supposed to be bad". That's fine for something like Link's Mortal Draw; it's tucked away as a Secret Taunt. 'Dorf's got a big, useless OHKO weighing down his Neutral B. His Signature Move.

Of course you're gonna say the OHKO is a Minus Staple, though, right? Well, why not hide it away in a Secret Taunt like Link's? Make the normal WP closer to vBrawl strength, maybe give it some armor, and make it safe to use offstage. Make Side Taunt switch to the 666% OHKO for one use, or until the Taunt is pressed again.

 

[Bent 00]

Aether offstage. Not a OHKO but still a signature move. Offstage, if not used as a recovery, you die.

You can edgegrab out of Aether. 'Dorf can't do that out of WP.

Flare Blade offstage charged. OHKO and suicidal. Let's give it an on-hit cancel.

You don't have to charge it all the way. Once 'Dorf commits to FWP as-is, he's a goner unless it hits.

EDIT: PK Flash is debatable.

Both Ness's and Lucas's Neutral B moves are Jump Cancellable.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

Both Ness's and Lucas's Neutral B moves are Jump Cancellable.

Only Lucas's is Jump Cancellable.

 

[Pin Clock]

I have given my reasoning for all of that a year ago, which is why I didn't go into it when I first read your post.

We're not changing what Warlock Punch is, how it works, and we sure as hell are not going to let someone toss out an OHKO move offstage and live unless they actually pull it off, in which case they get all my respect and earn that recovery.

You don't have to charge it all the way. Once 'Dorf commits to FWP as-is, he's a goner unless it hits.

And that's how it should be. It's an OHKO move and if it weren't that, it'd still be extremely powerful. You shouldn't be able to recover from that under normal circumstances.

 

[Bent 00]

Only Lucas's is Jump Cancellable.

Ness's Neutral B is Jump Cancellable in 3.Q. Just tested it.

@Pin Clock: It's apparent you and I will never agree on this.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

@Pin Clock: It's apparent you and I will never agree on this.

Correct. A cancel on WP would be kinda unbalanced and unnecessary, especially us moving away from the reason "because we can".
So for a cancel or even SFWP:

Although current WP makes for a good recovery.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

Ness's Neutral B is Jump Cancellable in 3.Q. Just tested it.

Seriously? How did I not know this? What am I doing calling myself a Ness main? XD

 

[Pin Clock]

@Pin Clock: It's apparent you and I will never agree on this.

All of us on the dev team explained why we disagree on the concept of Warlock Punch being safe in the air in the very stream that this thread is about.

Usually I don't say "it's not happening" but this is really just not happening. The on-hit cancel was our compromise because we feel that if you pull it off you deserve to live, but Ganon should not just be flying off the stage tossing OHKOs and praying they hit, and we're not making WP anything less than an OHKO.

 

[Neville]

@Bent 00 You should read up on Glyph' s thread. One of his points is we shouldn't add stuff because, "lol it would be awesome gaiz"

 

[Bent 00]

@Doqtor Kirby: You too, huh? I agree that the Cancel was too much, but not even SFWP?

@MegaSaturn99: I don't agree with Glyph's design philosophy. Many of the fun things in Minus wouldn't have come about if we followed what he said in that topic.

At any rate, looks like there's not much use discussing WP any further in here.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

@Doqtor Kirby: You too, huh? I agree that the Cancel was too much, but not even SFWP?

As Doqtor Kirby (me), I personally think it's cool and all and wouldn't mind the addition, but as Doqtor Kirby (representing the dev team), I think the NO is a correct decision for the future well-being of Minus.

 

[Neville]

@Doqtor Kirby: You too, huh? I agree that the Cancel was too much, but not even SFWP?

@MegaSaturn99: I don't agree with Glyph's design philosophy. Many of the fun things in Minus wouldn't have come about if we followed what he said in that topic.

At any rate, looks like there's not much use discussing WP any further in here.

I honestly don't think things were only added for shits and giggles. But I would have to ask the devs directly about that.

 

[Pin Clock]

I honestly don't think things were only added for shits and giggles. But I would have to ask the devs directly about that.

If things were added for shits and giggles it would only be the secondary reason for the addition.

A lot of concepts are founded on shits and giggles but are modified before final release.

 

[Bent 00]

On a different subject: If you bring the SEP back, and include any stages that have Project M's speedy camera, please change it to the camera style used in Minus -- the one that doesn't pan as fast or zoom in and out as quickly.

 

[NEWB]

If things were added for shits and giggles it would only be the secondary reason for the addition.

A lot of concepts are founded on shits and giggles but are modified before final release.

Like a bigger fish on summit.

Seriously, I am so holding you guys to that.

 

[Thor]

I don't think Dorf should have a no risk edgeguarding move. Doesn't make sense from a game design standpoint and no other fighting game I've ever seen has done this. Even though the point of minus is to break a fighting game, I dont see the point in it.

Falco's dair. Peach's nair. Falcon's every aerial. 'Dorf's every aerial, side+b, and warlock kick.

Hm guess everything 'Dorf does offstage needs to kill him.

We street fighter now.

If things were added for ***** and giggles it would only be the secondary reason for the addition.

A lot of concepts are founded on ***** and giggles but are modified before final release.

Also we need to remove Mortal Draw guys, it doesn't kill Link but you can people offstage with it. And it's clearly added for kicks, nothing more.

We also need to remove every super taunt in the game, since they were all just thrown in for kicks, nothing more. Especially Luigi's.

We project M now.

...

STREET FIGHER - PROJECT M EDITION. I'M A GENIUS. LET'S DO THIS THING DEV TEAM!!!

 

[Neville]

Falco's dair. Peach's nair. Falcon's every aerial. 'Dorf's every aerial, side+b, and warlock kick.

Hm guess everything 'Dorf does offstage needs to kill him.

We street fighter now.



Also we need to remove Mortal Draw guys, it doesn't kill Link but you can people offstage with it. And it's clearly added for kicks, nothing more.

We also need to remove every super taunt in the game, since they were all just thrown in for kicks, nothing more. Especially Luigi's.

We project M now.

...

STREET FIGHER - PROJECT M EDITION. I'M A GENIUS. LET'S DO THIS THING DEV TEAM!!!

Every single one of those moves you listed is not o one hit ko move or a guarenteed kill when used off the ledge even. Minus is arguably more balanced than PM or Street Fighter and I honestly have no idea where you're going for with those analogies. Also Mortal draw allows Link to capitalize off a Deku nut