Brawl Minus 3.Q is all Qued up and ready to go!

[Glyph]

Yeah, people like Thor and PowerUp just don't understand the balance process. THAT'S the problem.

How about a little clarification as to why apparently the entire BRoom hates the nair idea as much as they do? Pretty harsh to just leave it at 'yeah we saw it and it sucked'.

As for the argument for why Peach is good, I'm not impressed. Peach has combos, great! So does every other character in Minus! Its never been a question of Peach being unplayable, just that she isn't on par with the bulk of everyone else. The reason no one gives your Peach any credit is because you never even mentioned her until like a week and a half ago at the latest. Up until then you swore by TL, Link, Lucario, and Pit.


Oh, and I'm going to hold you to that 'Link getting hit harder than ROB' comment.

 

[PowerUp]

I did and the entirety of the BR sees it as a horrible idea.

Really? That's how you're gonna play it? Just "it's bad" with no actual reason?

If Backroom favoritism was a thing, you'd see nerfs to pretty much everyone that isn't Link, Sonic, TL, Pit, Ike, and Zelda. The fact is, that you have no idea what you're talking about in this particular situation, what you see happening isn't favoritism. It's a mixture of experimentation, and small tweaks. Everyone cries Link is OP now, but I'm almost certain that not everyone here can tell a 2 frame difference. (don't worry he won't be next update)

Okay. Let's look back at the last several releases for those characters and count the buffs vs the nerfs. Then let's consider everyone else: Peach gets nothing, Mario gets nerfed every release, Yoshi gets nothing, Ness gets nerfed, etc. HMM.

And PowerUp. You should go ahed and play as the entire roster on a pro level so you can offer up suggestions of better balanced alternatives. The 4 or so PSAers in the BR could use some help.

Can't tell if snarky or a legitimate suggestion. Leaning toward snarky. Either way, you may want to take a look at this:

And this:

Seems to me that if you can talk about balance, I can too.

 

[Neville]

As one of the better Peach players on the forums(Kien and I seem to be the only ones) I agree that Peach doesn't need a whole lot of buffing. A little tweaking yes but not LET'S BUFF ALL THE THINGS. Just my 2centz.

 

[PowerUp]

Nobody here is saying to buff everything on Peach. I suggested one defensive buff to nair.

 

[Kien]

Really? That's how you're gonna play it? Just "it's bad" with no actual reason?



Okay. Let's look back at the last several releases for those characters and count the buffs vs the nerfs. Then let's consider everyone else: Peach gets nothing, Mario gets nerfed every release, Yoshi gets nothing, Ness gets nerfed, etc. HMM.



Can't tell if snarky or a legitimate suggestion. Leaning toward snarky. Either way, you may want to take a look at this:

And this:

Seems to me that if you can talk about balance, I can too.

Err... Okay, so all this says is you're good at Minus.

Not only was I not being snarky, but guess what else? Nerfing Mario wasn't my idea, I never touched Ness, Yoshi was because we're removing pointless impales, Peach got buffs so I'm not sure where you're coming from. How about you do this? Start finding out who did what to who before you go and assume it's just me making all the wrong moves. Don't jump on the hate train before you jump on the question train. You know? And yes, please look at the several releases for Link, these are the first buffs he's received since the Max Beta began. Tell me I'm wrong. I've never coded any of my mains besides Link, TL, Ike, and Zelda actually. And a little bit of Sonic.

Anyway, I can tell you why nair invincibility is a bad idea. 45 frames of invincibility to projectiles that can be used while approaching and KOs from around 100 on the edge with a low angle similar to a star rod toss. Let's combine that with the pressure Peach can apply during an approach and tell me what you get.

 

[Neville]

Nobody here is saying to buff everything on Peach. I suggested one defensive buff to nair.

She doesn't need it. I've been messing around with positioning and I don't think she needs to be projectile invincible.

 

[PowerUp]

Can you please point us to the post where I said that you were the one responsible for nerfing Mario, Ness, etc? You're the most active BR guy, so everyone is going to try to make their case to you. The release notes don't even tell us all the changes, much less who changed what, so don't take everything so personally.

And no, I don't think 45 frames of invincibility to projectiles is too much. Quite a few powerful projectiles will stay in her hit boxes for 10, 20, or even 30 frames. Even if for sake of argument you tried it and found that it's too much, you do have control over how many frames the invincibility could last (this kind of tweak has been done to Bowser and numerous others in the past). At least you could say that you put it through some testing.

 

[Gold_TSG]

What's the name of this good peach you're afraid of? Do you have any replays against them?

That whole post boils down to 'peach is good, trust me I would know' but you don't do anything to actually support your argument outside of calling her tricky.

You know what gets annoying, Glyph? This incessant need for replays and "proof" that you keep calling for. Firstly, you're the only person I could even give replays to, and outside of your little tournament, you won't take replays from me anymore because "boo hoo Rob lost excess power now he's unplayable" and you won't use the most current stuff to play anymore, using your own build.
Secondly, I said "A" good Peach, as in, not being specific. I have faced some frightening Peach players back in vBrawl, and I'd hate to face them in Minus. The only Peach I've really played in Minus thus far is Kien, and it isn't difficult to gauge how much better she can be, especially when I have more trouble against his Peach than I do his Link.

So please do me a favor and avoid "calling me out" pointlessly, especially when I'm not being specific with something like Peach players in particular. Thanks.

 

[Glyph]

lol ok Gold

 

[Thor]

I did and the entirety of the BR sees it as a horrible idea.

Um... what? Why? What's so bad about it?

Speaking of frame data... Peach has a 1 frame jab, that combos into her smashes thanks to hitstun. It also combos into her dash attack which combos into her smashes. It even combos into her grabs. And with her throw changes this can either combo into aerials or a kill throw. You guys act like i don't play Peach as one of my better characters. There's a reason I've been so hesitant on buffing her. You know that she can pretty much instakill anyone with their back to the edge with dash attack into dtilt? It lifts them off the ground and meteors them. You know that she can toss a turnip and if she predicts they'll block it just rush in and grab while they're shielded because of shield stun? If they break out of stun she can retreat and try again with no hazard to her health. I nerfed her nair because it was too good. The people saying Peach is bad are probably the same ones who think that Ness is a glass cannon.

Why are jabs randomly buffed? If Falco doesn't have a frame 1 jab, I'm now pissed off, because jabbing was Falco's thing, and you gave it to other characters (it would explain why his CQC feels lacking - because his jab is now comparatively average or maybe it even got nerfed to being bad). If he has a frame 1 jab ok, that's fine, but I'd swear it's not...

SDIing jab fixes all of those problems and gives one a free attack on Peach. I suppose someone is using IDA to get the dash attack, but unless CC mechanics were changed I'd think you could also just CC jab -> powershield followup and punish, if one doesn't wish to SDI it.

If someone is dying to dash attack -> dtilt, they either need to get their stuff together and lrn2 meteor cancel or else they're at a high enough percent where Peach could smack them out and edgeguard them. This combo doesn't impress me in the slightest (heck, Ganondorf can dair -> dair at low percents for this and Falco can sort of do that too - this combo is like standard fare for parts of the cast, it's not scary on Peach).

It's called rolling away from turnips or jumping out of shield. Also, Sammi-husky's status used to be the perfect response: "If your opponent predicts something, times a move, and you fail to predict them, you've been outplayed." Guess what, if you guess wrong and they spotdodge or jump Peach is grabbing at air and either being grabbed or eating aerials, it's how someone plays Smash. Also if she retreats from this then the opponent is given more stage and can probably advance making her health in hazard by proximity.

Also wtfudge Ness is the definition of a glass cannon - he can 4-stock you with precision onstage, but any number of characters can 4-stock him right back if they just kick or throw him offstage and land like 2 dairs. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlassCannon

Yeah, people like Thor and PowerUp just don't understand the balance process. THAT'S the problem.

How about a little clarification as to why apparently the entire BRoom hates the nair idea as much as they do? Pretty harsh to just leave it at 'yeah we saw it and it sucked'.

As for the argument for why Peach is good, I'm not impressed. Peach has combos, great! So does every other character in Minus! Its never been a question of Peach being unplayable, just that she isn't on par with the bulk of everyone else. The reason no one gives your Peach any credit is because you never even mentioned her until like a week and a half ago at the latest. Up until then you swore by TL, Link, Lucario, and Pit.

Oh, and I'm going to hold you to that 'Link getting hit harder than ROB' comment.

No let's be real I clearly understand nothing, I thought fast lasers were a bad idea, and they're absolutely fantastic.

Also second the explanation, and the "Peach has combos but that doesn't make her too good."

Anyway, I can tell you why nair invincibility is a bad idea. 45 frames of invincibility to projectiles that can be used while approaching and KOs from around 100 on the edge with a low angle similar to a star rod toss. Let's combine that with the pressure Peach can apply during an approach and tell me what you get.

That's 3 quarters of a second, which isn't much - and since Raptor Boost had its projectile immunity adjusted, you (or other coder) certainly could adjust it on Peach too, right?

And what do you get? A floaty that still loses to spacies, Captain Falcon, and Marth. Whoop de doo. Really it improves her Link and TL MUs, but not all that much otherwise.

Why would she airdodge? She has enough float time to go well out of the angle and range of anything Link or ROB can do. Sure Link can throw a bomb up, but she can just slide to the front or back. Tell you what, I'll see if I can find the password for my internet, and you can fight my Peach tonight. If she just plain sucks against projectiles we'll see about getting rid of her weakness. But if I can beat your anti Peach characters, well...

While I have to readjust to Minus (a bit of Melee recently, but no good Brawl- in forever) and make my Falco (quote of Coontail) "as GAY as POSSIBLE!", once I've done that I'd love to fight any Peach someone wants to throw at me. Because I want something to fill full of lasers, and high-speed lasers at that [something tells me I'll end up on Metal Cavern and just be like "well crap there goes that strategy..."].

 

[Kien]

Um... what? Why? What's so bad about it?



Why are jabs randomly buffed? If Falco doesn't have a frame 1 jab, I'm now pissed off, because jabbing was Falco's thing, and you gave it to other characters (it would explain why his CQC feels lacking - because his jab is now comparatively average

Why is average bad? I buffed Link's jab to make it average, and we saw how hat turned out.

If someone is dying to dash attack -> dtilt, they either need to get their stuff together and lrn2 meteor cancel or else they're at a high enough percent where Peach could smack them out and edgeguard them. This combo doesn't impress me in the slightest (heck, Ganondorf can dair -> dair at low percents for this and Falco can sort of do that too - this combo is like standard fare for parts of the cast, it's not scary on Peach).

How hard does Ganon have to work to land a dair? Regardless of what you want to say, harder than Peach has to try to land a dash attack is the proper answer.

It's called rolling away from turnips or jumping out of shield. Also, Sammi-husky's status used to be the perfect response: "If your opponent predicts something, times a move, and you fail to predict them, you've been outplayed." Guess what, if you guess wrong and they spotdodge or jump Peach is grabbing at air and either being grabbed or eating aerials, it's how someone plays Smash. Also if she retreats from this then the opponent is given more stage and can probably advance making her health in hazard by proximity.

Untrue. Just plain untrue. If someone jumps out of shield she can catch them with a 4 frame nair. Sorry, but you aren't beating that unless you started your aerial first.If you roll away from turnips, anything but a lucario length roll is pretty much gonna end you out of shield in dash attack range. You don't grab when you see someone move. Let's remember that minds work at all times.

Also wtfudge Ness is the definition of a glass cannon - he can 4-stock you with precision onstage, but any number of characters can 4-stock him right back if they just kick or throw him offstage and land like 2 dairs. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlassCannon

That's project M. El oh El. Please don't point to PM to prove a point in Minus.

That's 3 quarters of a second, which isn't much - and since Raptor Boost had its projectile immunity adjusted, you (or other coder) certainly could adjust it on Peach too, right?

Yep.

And what do you get? A floaty that still loses to spacies, Captain Falcon, and Marth. Whoop de doo. Really it improves her Link and TL MUs, but not all that much otherwise.

You get a Peach who has only one weakness which is her lightweight. I'd love to know how Marth dominates Peach as well.

I'd love to fight any Peach someone wants to throw at me. Because I want something to fill full of lasers, and high-speed lasers at that [something tells me I'll end up on Metal Cavern and just be like "well crap there goes that strategy..."].

I don't think things will turn out in your favor, but don't worry about the stage. I'll never go to Metal Cavern intentionally.

Also, Falco does have a 1 frame jab.

 

[NEWB]

A couple of errors make me not quite understand a couple sentences there....

lol that isn't a proper answer.

 

[Valravn]

How hard does Ganon have to work to land a dair? Regardless of what you want to say, harder than Peach has to try to land a dash attack is the proper answer.

That's project M. El oh El. Please don't point to PM to prove a point in Minus.

I think there are more polite methods of discourse than asking questions and telling someone they're wrong no matter what they answer. I'm also pretty sure he was referring to Brawl Minus, since this is the forum for that, and there's no need to deflect the statement by putting words in his mouth. That link was to the TVTropes page on glass cannons. The drama in this thread is getting pretty heavy, guys. Once we're to the point where every post is a point-by-point rebuttal of every other point, people are honestly just talking past each other.

On another note, does anyone else really, really, like the 3.Q Dedede Ftilt? I found it super useful for scooping Waddle Dees and Doos from behind me horizontally across the stage much faster than they would walk, and without throwing them way up into the air. Probably my favorite change for the patch, though I don't like everything. (I miss my combo-extending Ganondorf down smash, mostly.)

Out of curiosity, was the change to Nayru's Love inspired by the old Balanced Brawl mod? I remember being able to slide back and forth using that to aggravating effect back when my friends and I played that. Though it definitely went further much than a dodge in the build we played with.

 

[Gold_TSG]

3.Q reverted DDD ftilt because it could be used for easy mode combos and kills. You can fling Dees and Doos just as easily with how it is now, and gives him an extra pseudo projectile.

 

[Kien]

I think there are more polite methods of discourse than asking questions and telling someone they're wrong no matter what they answer. I'm also pretty sure he was referring to Brawl Minus, since this is the forum for that, and there's no need to deflect the statement by putting words in his mouth. That link was to the TVTropes page on glass cannons. The drama in this thread is getting pretty heavy, guys. Once we're to the point where every post is a point-by-point rebuttal of every other point, people are honestly just talking past each other.

On another note, does anyone else really, really, like the 3.Q Dedede Ftilt? I found it super useful for scooping Waddle Dees and Doos from behind me horizontally across the stage much faster than they would walk, and without throwing them way up into the air. Probably my favorite change for the patch, though I don't like everything. (I miss my combo-extending Ganondorf down smash, mostly.)

Out of curiosity, was the change to Nayru's Love inspired by the old Balanced Brawl mod? I remember being able to slide back and forth using that to aggravating effect back when my friends and I played that. Though it definitely went further much than a dodge in the build we played with.

There certainly are more polite methods. I dunno anything about TVTropes, but what I do know, is that having one very distinct weakness doesn't make you a glass cannon. Also there's no need for me to deflect anything, I know what Ness is capable of and can assure you that his weak gimpable recovery does not make him a glass cannon.

About Zelda, yes actually. I figured it might be too much of a buff though if I gave her the full distance that BBrawl had.

But I guess I'll quote this from the Tvtropes thing...

"In short: he can dish it out, but he can't take it. The Glass Cannon is characterized by insane attack power coupled with pathetic defensive ability."

Ness can take hits. In order for this to be true, he would also need to be a very lightweight character, think Sonic's weight class. Ness has high damage output, quick attacks, a solid projectile (or two) that allow him to be defensive if he wants, and even an absorption field for healing. His air mobility is decent, his dodging is fine, and he's just as tough as most other middleweights. Let's compare weights...
Mario -98
Ness- 94
Pit- 94
Peach- 90

Zelda- 85
Sonic- 82
Kirby- 78
Jigglypuff- 68
See the difference?

"Glass Cannons often overlap with the Fragile Speedster; characters of that type tend to put out high damage and dodge most incoming attacks, but go down quickly if they do get hit."

This section applies to Pichu to an extent.

"Also often overlaps with Long-Range Fighter, using range to keep out of harm's way."

While this applies to Zelda.

"Mighty Glacier, who can dish out at the expense of speed rather than toughness"

To my understanding, this would apply to Ganon, as he is powerful and tough, but not very fast.

"Lightning Bruiser, who can do the same without sacrificing anything."

Lastly, this would from my knowledge best be applied to Captain Falcon.

 

[Thor]

Why is average bad? I buffed Link's jab to make it average, and we saw how hat turned out.

Link smacks you with a long range sword. Falco attempts to swipe at you with pitiful range. It's not just about frames, which people keep telling you - the composite of the move means Link with a frame 3 [or whatever] jab is a very, very good jab, while Falco with a frame 3 jab is just bad. Falco is also a character who should be jab -> grab because he lacks a good rapid jab (it's really average at best) while Link smacks someone away automatically with his.

How hard does Ganon have to work to land a dair? Regardless of what you want to say, harder than Peach has to try to land a dash attack is the proper answer.

Unless you screwed up jump heights, it's very easy to land a dair as a thunderstorming Ganondorf. It's also very easy to side+b -> dair if you can read an opponent at all, and side+B is easier to land that dash attack (can be done standing still, not just running, 100% safe on shields (it beats them)), and Ganondorf's dair -> dair KOs at significantly lower percents than Peach's dash attack -> dtilt (which could be DI'd or SDI'd to escape anyway). And as Glyph said, boohoo she has combos. This is nothing more than average at best (and I think downright mediocre).

Untrue. Just plain untrue. If someone jumps out of shield she can catch them with a 4 frame nair. Sorry, but you aren't beating that unless you started your aerial first.If you roll away from turnips, anything but a lucario length roll is pretty much gonna end you out of shield in dash attack range. You don't grab when you see someone move. Let's remember that minds work at all times.

If you jump OoS before she throws the turnip she's already either floating (at which point you should've rolled first, or perhaps stayed in shield for a bit) or she still has to actually throw the turnip, so she can't nair you at all. Your original post was "If she reads you and throws a turnip you get stuck in shieldstun and grabbed." Well guess what if you roll or jump out she is holding a turnip so she can't nair OR grab, which makes all of what you said literally irrelevant, because she's STILL holding the turnip that MIGHT catch your roll but WON'T catch a smart jump.

Oh lemme guess, "BUT GROUND FLOAT!" That's why you fullhop out or short hop and maybe airdodge away too - if someone is ground-floating to catch you out of shield you're just getting read hard and deserve to get hit. Or you could jump away, catch the turnip, and throw it at her, hitting her out of nair - catching items isn't that hard.

And oh no, Peach has frame traps and setups on shield! So does TL, Link, Diddy Kong, and pretty much anyone else with a projectile with decent shieldstun projectile - that's how you play the game. Peach being able to do standard stuff is not a reason to not buff her, when others can do all this and more.

That's project M. El oh El. Please don't point to PM to prove a point in Minus.

No you're stupid. That's a TV tropes URL with a URL implying it's a PM url when it's not. El oh el lrn2 not suk. Seriously you're pissing me off now so I'mma keep insults to a minimum but this is getting ridiculous where you just assume I'm wrong when OMG I might actually be right about something. Ness = glass cannon because if you exploit his one weakness he's hosed. He's like Melee Falco - dominates onstage, my god don't knock him offstage or he's in bad shape (a good DJ but get him in his up+B and you can kiss him goodbye).

You get a Peach who has only one weakness which is her lightweight. I'd love to know how Marth dominates Peach as well.

Marths's sword > Peach. He can combo her with efficient spacing, she dies to Ken combos rather easily, and Marth's recovery is more than strong enough to beat her edgeguard if one doesn't waste the jump. Also, pretty sure side+b1 -> utilt is still a thing. He can also DS out of any pressure she has, and her KO power on him is still rather weak.

Also, Falco does have a 1 frame jab.

That's a relief (sort of). Does he have his vBrawl spotdodge too? I know ROB's was buffed, did Falco get the same treatment?

 

[Kien]

Link smacks you with a long range sword. Falco attempts to swipe at you with pitiful range. It's not just about frames, which people keep telling you - the composite of the move means Link with a frame 3 [or whatever] jab is a very, very good jab

Does this mean that DK with his really long arms shouldn't have 4 frame jabs? Because he has them.

thunderstorming Ganondorf. It's also very easy to side+b -> dair if you can read an opponent at all, and side+B is easier to land that dash attack (can be done standing still, not just running, 100% safe on shields (it beats them)), and Ganondorf's dair -> dair KOs at significantly lower percents than Peach's dash attack -> dtilt (which could be DI'd or SDI'd to escape anyway). And as Glyph said, boohoo she has combos.

Ganon can't thunderstorm in Minus. You really should practice a bit more. Keep hanging on to Glyph, you'll get better. Also, reading your opponent is only as easy as your opponent makes it. Thus Ganon doesn't get off as easy as Peach.

If you jump OoS before she throws the turnip she's already either floating (at which point you should've rolled first, or perhaps stayed in shield for a bit) or she still has to actually throw the turnip, so she can't nair you at all. Your original post was "If she reads you and throws a turnip you get stuck in shieldstun and grabbed." Well guess what if you roll or jump out she is holding a turnip so she can't nair OR grab, which makes all of what you said literally irrelevant, because she's STILL holding the turnip that MIGHT catch your roll but WON'T catch a smart jump.

Or she simply jumped and didn't float at all... Also, do me a favor. Pick Peach, throw a turnip at her with another Peach and Nair. Watch what happens and be amazed.

Oh lemme guess, "BUT GROUND FLOAT!" That's why you fullhop out or short hop and maybe airdodge away too - if someone is ground-floating to catch you out of shield you're just getting read hard and deserve to get hit. Or you could jump away, catch the turnip, and throw it at her, hitting her out of nair - catching items isn't that hard.

Oh no, you caught an item but she used a short hop throw which had no landing lag. So yeah, you have a turnip now, and she hit you before you could attack. 1 point for Peach "outplaying" you.

No you're stupid.

I thought you were gonna keep the insults to a minimum...

Marths's sword > Peach. He can combo her with efficient spacing, she dies to Ken combos rather easily, and Marth's recovery is more than strong enough to beat her edgeguard if one doesn't waste the jump. Also, pretty sure side+b1 -> utilt is still a thing. He can also DS out of any pressure she has, and her KO power on him is still rather weak.

1 Point for Marth. Even if he does lose to projectiles.

That's a relief (sort of). Does he have his vBrawl spotdodge too? I know ROB's was buffed, did Falco get the same treatment?

And I dunno if he has vbrawl spotdodge. I'm too stupid. If only I could make that sad face bigger.

 

[NEWB]

Guys.... You can't manufacture a match on paper. There are endless possibilities. The both of you are describing players that are using tas essentially.

I also agree that Marth kills peach. Turnips aren't a problem compared to other projectiles. All of his aerials hit through them. Have you played a good Marth around here as peach. Shield breaker makes it impossible for her to float wherever she wants too.

Not to be that guy, but I'm pretty sure he did keep insults to a minimum. He was just condescending kinda most of the time.

Are you saying DK has frame 1 jabs?

 

[Thor]

Does this mean that DK with his really long arms shouldn't have 4 frame jabs? Because he has them.

His arms have hurtboxes, Link's sword doesn't. Also DK was just bodied by Falco in Brawl, it's good that he's not going to get wrecked by everyone else in this game with the insane jab speed everyone now has. DK frame 4 jab is reasonable. I was under the impression Link's was as well, which is pushing it, but okayish.

Ganon can't thunderstorm in Minus. You really should practice a bit more. Keep hanging on to Glyph, you'll get better. Also, reading your opponent is only as easy as your opponent makes it. Thus Ganon doesn't get off as easy as Peach.

Life lesson I guess, since I've never ever practiced Minus beyond just playing it with people, except for about 5 minutes spent working on my lasering with Falco a few days ago (someone let me borrow their non-Wifi-compatible Wii). I don't practice Ganondorf at all, but taking away his auto-cancelled dair strings is... disappointing.

Ganondorf doesn't get off as easy as Peach for zero-deathing with his dair, but he also, unlike Peach, doesn't have some gimmicky combos that prevent him from being buffed to a very strong top-tier character.

Also if you're trying to insult Glyph and I, point for you. Although I don't exactly hang on to Glyph, and I've never met him in person.

Or she simply jumped and didn't float at all... Also, do me a favor. Pick Peach, throw a turnip at her with another Peach and Nair. Watch what happens and be amazed.

So she can insta-nair? Well if she's close enough to connect the nair she's in shieldgrab range and she can't grab - I thought we were talking outside of shieldgrab range (say with a glidetoss), but if that's the case then yeah this would work. Or airdodge catch the turnip, which gets you through the nair and with an item in hand while she has none.

Oh no, you caught an item but she used a short hop throw which had no landing lag. So yeah, you have a turnip now, and she hit you before you could attack. 1 point for Peach "outplaying" you.

First, that's called a "frame trap" which means one let themselves get into a bad spot first. So that would be 2 points to Peach, one for getting you in a bad spot and one for successfully executing the frame trap...

but you could airdodge-catch the turnip and smack the c-stick to instantly throw the turnip (via cancelling airdodge) back at her. 1 point to instant tossing items, zero points to fake Peach frame traps. Unless she caught it and then tried to quickly throw it back (there's not instatossing on the ground), which would be your cue to jump away again, putting more distance between you and her and out of nair range.

I thought you were gonna keep the insults to a minimum...

When I saw you directly mock and insult me because you fail to check the URL, I wrote an entire post full of insults then deleted the entire thing and rewrote it with, ending up with the one (which was less offensive than the original insult I wrote there anyway, so insults were not just removed but toned down too).

And if someone directly insults me when they're in the wrong, be damn sure I'm not going to just "take it in stride" or whatever (since you can't even take a URL in stride and humor me enough to check it before slinging mud).

Also I was going to take it back, but you posted rather quickly in response, and then insulted me (and maybe were taking a dig at Glyph), so I'll let that one stand for posterity (or until a mod cleans it up).

1 Point for Marth. Even if he does lose to projectiles.

Not sure how these points are measured, but... if he's letting her get enough turnips for him to be losing, he's doing it wrong. Minus is supposed to be an offense-based game anyway - he should be applying a fair bit of pressure, which doesn't leave her much time to pluck her projectiles (maybe after a juggle, but at that point he's already winning). I also need to go test some stuff with Marth and projectiles, since I know in some games one can just clank out various items via fair.

And I dunno if he has vbrawl spotdodge. I'm too stupid. If only I could make that sad face bigger.

What a pity indeed. You could use a google image or something, although it's not quite the same.

Are you saying DK has frame 1 jabs?

Kien says frame 4. Would make sense to me.

 

[Kien]

His arms have hurtboxes, Link's sword doesn't. Also DK was just bodied by Falco in Brawl, it's good that he's not going to get wrecked by everyone else in this game with the insane jab speed everyone now has. DK frame 4 jab is reasonable. I was under the impression Link's was as well, which is pushing it, but okayish.

Not at all. Link had 6 frame jabs. The second slowest in Minus. I sped them up to 4 and everyone said he was God tier now. And actually that isn't how Brawl works. DK's rm is just as immune to damage as Link's sword while attacking. It simply becomes a test of priority.

Life lesson I guess.. I don't practice Ganondorf at all

Cutting this here to make it look like you have no idea what yo're talking about anymore.

Also if you're trying to insult Glyph and I, point for you. Although I don't exactly hang on to Glyph, and I've never met him in person.

I'm not insulting Glyph. I'm just pointing out that you hold his word and opinions highly, without much questioning.

but you could airdodge-catch the turnip and smack the c-stick to instantly throw the turnip (via cancelling airdodge) back at her. 1 point to instant tossing items, zero points to fake Peach frame traps. Unless she caught it and then tried to quickly throw it back (there's not instatossing on the ground), which would be your cue to jump away again, putting more distance between you and her and out of nair range.

What I was getting at, is that her nair will will cancel out any non red turnips. They won't hurt her.

When I saw you directly mock and insult me because you fail to check the URL, I wrote an entire post full of insults then deleted the entire thing and rewrote it with, ending up with the one (which was less offensive than the original insult I wrote there anyway, so insults were not just removed but toned down too).

And if someone directly insults me when they're in the wrong, be damn sure I'm not going to just "take it in stride"
(or until a mod cleans it up).

I mocked but didn't insult you. Not sure what an entire post full of insults would accomplish other than making everyone think you either hated me, or wanted me to die laughing. At least we take insults in a somewhat similar manner. Though in this case I was never in the wrong. I don't see any of us as in the wrong. It's a debate, of balance and tactics. And... I'm a mod?

Not sure how these points are measured, but... if he's letting her get enough turnips for him to be losing, he's doing it wrong. Minus is supposed to be an offense-based game anyway - he should be applying a fair bit of pressure, which doesn't leave her much time to pluck her projectiles (maybe after a juggle, but at that point he's already winning). I also need to go test some stuff with Marth and projectiles, since I know in some games one can just clank out various items via fair.

The points aren't being measured. Yeah he would be doing it horrible wrong. He wouldn't be able to clank out red turnips likely. Priority works on an 8% basis. Red turnips do 35%. Also take into account that Peach gets in too close for Marth to score tippers on her though if she plays right.

What a pity indeed.

I wonder if you understand the image... if anyone does...

 

[The Concept]

This is beginning to disgust me.

 

[Thor]

Cutting this here to make it look like you have no idea what yo're talking about anymore.

The maturity in this thread is too high. Because obviously no one will go back and read the original post.









Oh wait...

And you downright butchered that. Let's see what I can do...

I... was in the wrong.

Nah, it's just not worth doing.

I'm not insulting Glyph. I'm just pointing out that you hold his word and opinions highly, without much questioning.

Well when I read what he says it doesn't set off my bulls*** detectors, except on some of the stuff he says about ROB. I also play him a lot more so I tend to understand more where he's coming from - maybe if I had played a good Peach or two I'd get this, but I've played a few Peaches and they didn't impress me.

I also play Link in Melee and I'll say it again - the jab1 buff felt fine but the rest felt like Link was just buffed because Link's cool or whatever, and since he's already high tier while low tiers like Pichu were left to sort of wallow in suckiness, it didn't feel right.

I mocked but didn't insult you. Not sure what an entire post full of insults would accomplish other than making everyone think you either hated me, or wanted me to die laughing. At least we take insults in a somewhat similar manner. Though in this case I was never in the wrong. I don't see any of us as in the wrong. It's a debate, of balance and tactics. And... I'm a mod?

You were mocking me and insulting me - it's called reading more than just the text of what you were saying, and you were calling me an idiot, plain and simple.

The points aren't being measured. Yeah he would be doing it horrible wrong. He wouldn't be able to clank out red turnips likely. Priority works on an 8% basis. Red turnips do 35%. Also take into account that Peach gets in too close for Marth to score tippers on her though if she plays right.

Non-tipper fair -> tipper fair. Also he can use his shield breaker, with its range that beats out any of Peach's moveset (sans turnips) to create spacing desirable to him.

I wasn't saying he'd clank out the red turnips, those are what someone should dodge. But unless Peach is getting a rate buff on her good turnips, that's very rarely a problem, and not enough to swing the MU to even or her favor.

I wonder if you understand the image... if anyone does...

I think you're calling me ugly, but gut check says I'm grasping at straws for this particular image.

This is beginning to disgust me.

Yeah, that picture is pretty disgusting.

Wait that's not funny.

 

[Kien]

Well when I read what he says it doesn't set off my bulls*** detectors, except on some of the stuff he says about ROB.

maybe if I had played a good Peach or two I'd get this, but I've played a few Peaches and they didn't impress me.

That's what I'm waiting for. Just let me know when you're available.

You were mocking me and insulting me - it's called reading more than just the text of what you were saying, and you were calling me an idiot, plain and simple.

That only applies to people who mean more than they say.

I think you're calling me ugly, but gut check says I'm grasping at straws for this particular image.

Not even. The guy in the picture's most used line is "Such a pity."

Honestly, The problem is that you're trying to get offended here. This is still totally relevant about 3.Q though, because we've been mentioning things about it with basically every other comment. Also, if you want to try and be mature, go for it. I'm not stopping you.

 

[Thor]

Honestly, The problem is that you're trying to get offended here. This is still totally relevant about 3.Q though, because we've been mentioning things about it with basically every other comment. Also, if you want to try and be mature, go for it. I'm not stopping you.

I'm not trying to get offended here, you're trying to say things that are indirectly offensive, pass them off with stuff like

That only applies to people who mean more than they say.

and

if you want to try and be mature, go for it. I'm not stopping you.

then act confused or get on your "why me??? I wish I could make it bigger so everyone could see how much of a victim I am" train so you spin it back around as you being innocent of anything but innocuous comments. Which is really irritating and not accurate to what you're looking to do, which is get your digs in and make me (or whomever you're arguing with) look like a bad guy if we say anything about it.

Or else you should clean up what you say so that you don't have to worry about saying more than you're trying to.

That's what I'm waiting for. Just let me know when you're available.

I get back August 9th, if my parents aren't being annoying about X (X being something I don't know about) I should hopefully be able to play by the 11th at the latest (maybe sooner, but I foresee unpacking and probably some random thing on the 10th, and I'll be getting back late on the 9th so I don't know that I'll have the energy to actually play Minus at any level above autopilot or sandbagging). I'm hoping it's earlier than that but I'll be realistic about it.

 

[Kien]

Oooooooooookayyyyyyyyy. All the Os all the Ys. How about I say this. You need to relax, and stop looking beyond what there is. I can promise you, that any snide comments I make are all in good humor, and any sad faces I place are all in better humor. I've been laughing at this for pages now. For real dude, we've talked outside of here and were there any problems? Nope. I've said exactly what I've wanted to say, you've just been seeing this as an argument and not a conversation. Me telling you to be mature is quite literally what it sounds like. Be mature, stop raging. Don't type up paragraphs of insults. I'd be amazed if this conversation had victims, no one is getting murdered here. (except Peach evidently) There are no crimes being committed. If you knew me better though, you'd realize that I say what I mean. Nothing is supposed to be deciphered in my somehow cryptic messages. Does that make sense?