Brawl Minus 3.3 is BACK!

[Tybis]

I thought there was also something about them being made for pm originally..

The portraits weren't made for PM per se... they were taken from THIS... and somebody turned them into portraits for PM.

 

[SunderStorm]

The skin portraits are the way they are because those other portraits would take far too long to make. I thought there was also something about them being made for pm originally.

Hopefully, they will find time to focus more on stuff like this in the future. I honestly wouldn't mind if all an entire patch was were bug fixes and aesthetic improvements.

I don't really understand understand this argument of them being made for P:M originally and so therefore we should back off. For one thing, P:M isn't even using the artwork. Also, considering that we're all a part of a community that loves Smash so much that we decide to mod it, that we should stop worrying so much about stepping on eachother's toes. I mean, in the end none of us really have the intellectual property rights to these things (right?).

Moving on, there are a few things that are somewhat...lackluster that I wish to bring attention to.

Mario - Will randomly not use the second jump on the up-B. I don't really know why or what conditions make this happen. Also, the lag on his fludd if you don't cancel it into anything is pretty lame. There's no reason not to cancel the move (I'm pretty sure shield is an option even), so I don't really get why he just gets tired at the end of it. Firebrand still somewhat useless imo.

Samus - I understand that the old fair had retarded levels of priority and that it was a problem, but Samus' old fair has always been a little bit awkward and not really rewarding so I hope that we can get something new for this.

Pikachu - This was a change a while back, but I find it just a little bit weird that tripping was added to Pikachu's up-B. In a game where everyone is super strong and you're supposed to win by your own strengths and not the enemy's weaknesses, it seems odd that it seems that a glaring weakness was added to this character. I guess there was some bad abuse case with up-B spam or something? Even so I feel like this is an inelegant solution in regards to the thesis of Brawl Minus (or at least what I personally interpret that to be).

Bowser - Bowser's forward smash is very vanilla and unimpressing. There's the whole cancelling thing which is somewhat interesting but the move itself still doesn't feel very rewarding or satisfying to actually land. If you look at Project M they added a fuckin explosion to it (uncharged even!). While I guess I understand that you guys are hesitant to just straight up take a design from another mod, this stands out as one of the iconic things about PM that I wish was in Brawl Minus (that and Solar Beam). If you guys don't want to just blatantly rip them off, which I guess I still understand, then I guess some other aspect that just makes it feel rewarding and satisfying to hit would do. I guess there's this danger that the move might be too safe because you don't have to commit (dodge cancel) and would be rewarded greatly, but at that point I'd rather have a rewarding and satisfying move than just a safe one. Safe doesn't really seem to fit Bowser's image anyways.

Ice Climbers - There are times where it seems that Nana refuses to teleport for no good reason. At least one of these that I think I remember is Nana getting up from a ledge while Popo cast's up-B, which results in Nana just leaving Popo to die.

Falco - I think this has been said before, but his slow wave of lasers seems to encourage "mew2king level's of gay" camping. I agree. It is really not fun to play against and doesn't really seem fun for the Falco player either. Other than this, Falco is a lackluster character in general, so I'd like to see his lasers changed and other aspects of his kit reworked or buffed. Actually, the fact whether Falco is lackluster or not is debatable. That's just my opinion. Apparently some people here think he's top tier. The important part is that the lasers, while seemingly intended to make approach opportunities, end up enabling a very campy gameplay style.

Ganondorf - I'm not sure if I like the new upTilt. It seems like a low risk low reward braindead kind of move (if you just use it for the quake) and I'm sure there's something cooler that can happen here. Project M's Ganondorf upTilt seems to be pretty cool. Gandouken spam, while manageable, is pretty silly. In my experience it forces the other player to air approach and anything that limit's the decisions of the enemy at the cost of typically nothing isn't good. That or play so close that Ganon doesn't have the time to do it at all, but that's still forcing a gameplay style onto the enemy. Additionally characters with reflectors just send it back for free so it's either moderately hard to deal with or not at all. I tend to look down on players that Gandouken spam, but it's not necessarily discouraged from a gameplay perspective. Could we get an internal cool down or something? Oh, and it says Donkey Kong on both Falco and Ganondorf's character pages on the main site. Lol.

Meta Knight - What's with the obscene lag after his new fSmash? I understand that it's powerful and that maybe you might be able to combo into it if you're good enough but damn does it leave you asking for a whopping if you miss for whatever reason. Charging it doesn't seem to be that rewarding either. Overall there seems to be little reason to use this move over faster kill moves with little endlag like dSmash.

Wolf - Why does Wolf still go into helpless state on his forward-B if he doesn't cancel it into something else? I mean that doesn't happen with Fox and there doesn't ever seem to be a reason not to cancel it. This ends up in Wolf players randomly suiciding because of a very punishing mechanical mistake, which is just never fun for any players in general. Same kind of design choice here between Wolf and Mario that I don't really understand.

Lucas - I get lots of comments about how Lucas' neutral-B feels weak now since it doesn't freeze or kill. I see that it has some obscene stun which he can follow up with say like UpSmash but I as well as the general populace still think that it should be a kill move like before. Right now, it doesn't really feel rewarding or satisfying to land (especially when compared to PK flash). Even moreso for new players who don't really recognize that they have to follow up or don't have the skill to do so.

Diddy Kong - The PopGun Malfunction is cool and pretty powerful, but still damn useless as you have to sit in one spot for a very long time. I'd like to see him being able to move while charging the gun. This way, his projectile game gets better and he can actually explode on people. I mean it's still a pretty big read and outplay to be able to do that so I think it should be fine. If other aspects of the move have to be nerfed (like killing power) then so be it but right now I don't think his neutral-B is that much worth using.

Charizard - I don't know if this is intentional or not, but Blast Burn sometimes rolls across ledges harmlessly while other times delivering a deadly edge guard. I'd like to see this normalized one way or another (personally probably towards not hitting people with their hand on the ledge).

Squirtle - Squirtle's side-B seems to be very deadly versus people who don't know the answers to it and somewhat useless against the people who do. I get that if you start it in the air it becomes much safer, but the problems above still apply. Maybe change it so that he still takes damage but can jump cancel it? That would make for an interesting chase game while still making him vulnerable. More risk, more reward.

Ike - I really like the new changes as I thought the old version of Ike was pretty toxic.

I still think that the overall design of the game is great so I'm expecting more great things to come out of you guys!

 

[NEWB]

Wow a lot said! Allow me to shed some light on afew things! I'll probably get ninja'd.

Mario: his second up b is done when b is held long enough. I hold it all the way through. I don't know why fludd has frames that don't allow interrupt. Firebrand has no Landlag. It's grounded version isn't really useful to me, but the air version is pretty good. Also sets up for footstools if you let the last hit connect. I did that once.

Samus: old fair was a fairly useful tool and missed by many samus mains. But.....ugh..... Discuss her in the samus thread I made. She is just bad now and needs to be reverted to 2.6.

Pikachu: I'm not sure what's going on here. Pika trips during up b??? To me, minus is actually all about winning with your opponents weaknesses. When you mess up, you die. Gotta play smart or you die dumb.

Bowser: remember that he also has super armor while charging his fsmash. It is a pretty lethal counter. I see your falcon punch and raise a fully charged fsmash that tanked all the hits and ignores sheilds!

IC's: Yes I know about that. Remember that grounded solo belay is sheild cancelable.

Falco: I really like him as he is. I main him and enjoy playing him very much! I also don't see how he is particularly bad. I need to practice with his Nair.

Dorf: his Uptilt is easy to avoid. Just short hop, sheild the quake, or spot dodge even. If he catches you while your teching, he has earned IMO. I've never played a dorf that gandouken spams well. Most chars have a projectile, so most have no issues. That's just a matchup thing.

MK: what's wrong with having a high risk, high reward move? It shouldn't be used much. That being said, his attacks are undergoing power edits, and the move may need to be further strengthened now that his damage output is being normalized.

Wolf: the helpless state is to nerf the recovery. The attack sends him up, so if he lives, he recovers. Not a good idea for such a powerful character!

Lucas: pk freeze can be jumped out of! When this happens, the attack continues untill it hits a wall or the floor and explodes. Did I just blow your mind? No one would ever say that this move was bad if they knew that.

Diddy: this feature isn't meant to be practical. Don't use it ever unless in FFAs, the onky time it could work. It takes a really bad player to get hit by this move in a 1v1.

Zard: can control the direction he shots blast burn.... Not much else to say. I see know issue.

Squirts: that's basically the move in a nutshell. What to do about it? Let's see what the devs do!

Ike: I also really like new NS mode.

Note: minus isn't balanced for FFAs.

Hope that answered some questions. Regarding taking things from pm, that is purely a matter of being professional. Neither side wants to see the other helping themself to their things. Or something like that. And again, the BR has few members. While it would be appreciated, it would take a lot of time to make those portraits.

 

[SunderStorm]

Pikachu - When Pikachu hits a floor with its up-B, it trips. It just seems kind of wonky. Was Pikachu just deemed too good when this change was made? I don't think that's still the case.

Bowser - I mean fSmash is a versatile and powerful move for sure, but it just doesn't feel satisfying to hit. That's what I'm trying to get at here. It feels like there's little payoff when I'm expecting a lot.

Ganondorf - I don't think upTilt is a hard move to play against. I just mean that from Ganondorf's perspective, there's little risk and not really much reward to using his uptilt, unless you sweetspot it. It's just kind of boring I guess? Also, I don't think Gandouken spam is particularly hard to play against but it's something particularly toxic for new players, so I think that should be kept in mind.

MK - I acknowledge that his fSmash is a high risk high reward move but it still feels like there's little to no reason to use it over something like dSmash.

Wolf - The thing is though, if you execute it right he will never go into helpless state from his side-B. He'll just cancel it with fair into jump or up-B. The only time he dies from using side-B is when he screws it up and doesn't cancel it. This just makes it mechanically harder to play Wolf for no good reason.

Lucas - I know this. I acknowledge that PK frost is a good move, but it still feels lackluster to hit, especially when you're expecting a large payoff.

Diddy - It doesn't have to be bad though. It could be actually useful and we could make his neutral b more useful at the same time. Whether he deserves it though, is another question. I think he does though.

Regarding the portraits, I mean they're already made and we've actually already had them in a build. Can't we just revert back to what we had?

 

[Gold_TSG]

As a Dorf main, I can tell you that spamming the Gandouken isn't that easy on a skilled player, so there really shouldn't be a problem here, especially since there are worse, more easily spammable moves in the game. His utilt is meant as a punisher, a surprise ledgeguard, or a way to control how you want your opponent to play. Dorf has a pretty powerful game, even in the air (though no mobility to take further advantage of it), and most of his game requires you be able to control the pace of your opponent. He's more a patient powerhouse until he gets in your face and essentially melts it off.

As for Lucas and Bower "feeling" lackluster, it's a matter of personal opinion. Bowser has lots of benefits in his fsmash, and taking advantage of this to power through your opponents for a potential kill always feels good to me. Lucas's PK Freeze doesn't need to be a kill move here because it was redesigned on purpose to further open up his combo game. Comparing it to PK Flash isn't really fair because they have no reason to function similarly on-hit anymore. Both Lucas and Ness can jump cancel out of the move, but the way they follow up behind it, and considering the differences in their ranges, makes all the difference in their playstyles.

 

[NEWB]

Ness can't JC out of pk flash. The move will continue after he is hit or grabbed, but no JC. Or am I missing something here?

I would also say your opinion on MK is just that means you aren't willing to take the risk. That move kills really easy though, so there is plenty of reason to land the attack whenever you can, even in favor of a combo since MK doesn't have onstage kill combos barring up throw. Of course, now that his damage and knockback are being messed with... I need to look at it some more.

Yes, if you execute it wolfs side b right with the cancel, you don't go into helpless state, but you also lose the height side b grants. That's the whole point. Minus thinks infinite horizontal recovery is ok, but not vertical.

I would also say that diddy doesn't need that kind of buff. He is a great character in all regards. His popgun is still really good by the way. It eats jumps and disrupts up specials so you can space with your bananas onstage or simply punish and control their recovery.

 

[NEWB]

Oh yeah, as for bowsers fsmash, I can see you complaint. But hey, it's not our fault we love explosions. At least our Ganon fsmash is way better than any other version of his fsmash! I personally don't like bowsers head exploding with Fsmash though. I mean... just why...? It's not like these games are supposed to make sense, but it feels very random. The only explanation I can give for that is that his head is that much hotter when his is using it. But this isn't a discussion that should be had.

 

[SunderStorm]

Fair enough, I can agree with the counter arguments given. I guess in the end, I guess I'm just expecting these moves (Bowser, Lucas) to sort of 'feel' better when they don't really need to be. I agree with GOLD_TSG's (mybadlol) description of Ganon. Gandouken spam isn't really that bad. But it just seems abusive to newcomers. Same with Lucas' neutral B. It seems bad to newcomers, but in reality it's pretty good. I guess I agree that Diddy is solid enough not to elicit a straight buff too. I don't think you should balance around casuals so I guess things are fine.

I guess I don't really know enough about Samus to judge her fair or her kit in general.

About Wolf though, I still don't like how you can often just randomly kill yourself by using sideB and forgetting to cancel.

Is there actually a way to reliably combo into fSmash with MetaKnight?

P.S. I brought out Brawl Minus at a social event today. It was a huge hit! Cough cough they really liked the 1.0 portraits.

 

[NEWB]

I get it at lower percents with dtilt nnd nuetral A. Otherwise, I hit them with fsmash by calling a tech or nabbing someone foolish enough to land on the stage during special fall. My go to kill move though is usually downb when you face forward and fire it going backward.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It's TSG, actually.

The newcomers argument could be used with any character in the game. Anyone with a higher skill or understanding of a character would be able to abuse it on lower level players. That's how those lower players get better. They experience these attacks and patterns, and they learn how to avoid and punish them, therefore rendering said spam to be much less effective.

And yes, Ness can JC out of it. If you time it right, you can keep the move going when you jump out, instead of having it explode when you cancel.

 

[NEWB]

Guess I need to find that timing.

And it's not like I don't agree about about the portraits. We would all rather have those, but it's fair that the devs should be able to make things a little easier on themself.

So you can't use pichu? Thats a shame.

 

[Pin Clock]

For those curious about the portraits and why they were changed, here are our 5 reasons:

1. The portraits were not made by nor made for Brawl Minus. In fact as mentioned before the one who made them CSPs made them for P:M.
2. We did not have permission to use said portraits, unbeknownst to us at the time.
3. They are harder to recolor for when we add more colors
4. Some characters like Hands and Alloys still had the old "MS Paint" ones, so they stood out and looked out of place, not really giving the game a unified style. In addition, Pichu had neither a sprite or an "MS Paint" doodle.
5. We knew we had to get rid of the sprites, and also knew people weren't entirely fans of the MS Paint ones, while some also were, and knew the sprites were loved, so the new CSPs were designed to be a compromise between the sprites and the MS Paint style of artwork.

I hope this answers your questions about them.

 

[Sammi-husky]

The loss of the 1.0 portraits is a shame indeed, however im under the impression that since the icon's and CSP's were not made for us (and were actually made for PM) that we would like to use portraits that are original to minus alone. We wouldn't want to rely on something not made for us. However that's not to say that there isn't a possibly that we will add serious icons and CSP's in the future so don't get discouraged~

In any case, I'm glad to see you enjoying and spreading Minus around! That's exactly what minus needs, more publicity and players. Minus has been taking a new direction in terms of it's image recently, and hopefully we can turn that 'joke mod' image that we all know around

EDIT: Ninja'd by Pin lol

 

[NEWB]

By the way pin, the portraits really are excellent for what they are. I say weegee and I was like YYYEEEESS!!!! Love it!

 

[Thor]

Yes, if you execute it wolfs side b right with the cancel, you don't go into helpless state, but you also lose the height side b grants. That's the whole point. Minus thinks infinite horizontal recovery is ok, but not vertical.

If we wanted to remove this problem, I suggest making Wolf's side+B have a property similar to Falco's side+b, where Wolf will fall a [adjective - short, moderate, long?] distance if you don't cancel it, but he will be out of helpless state - he would obviously need to fall just as far as he would using fair or uair (I'm not sure which has the shorter total duration) and probably a little farther (to encourage the cancel), but this would address both sides of the issue.

Minus doesn't really have any infinite horizontal recovery, with the exception of Charizard... unless Wolf side+B frame perfect is infinite too. Admittedly, a lot of characters (ROB, Wario, and Sonic are the big ones...) have absurdly good horizontal recovery (very little height lost for a huge distance), but it's not infinite.

P.S: CaptainEllipsis may have found one infinite recovery - Game and Watch bacon to Game and Watch up+b into the bacon [made easier since bacon doesn't clank] and repeat until you mess up or die. I haven't tested this, but it's almost certainly a horizontal recovery buff and may actually grant him height each time (it may even be the key to getting him under FD and to the other side - then we just need to be able to get Sheik and Bowser under). You do have to take damage for it, but I don't think bacon has KO power until well over sudden death percents, so it is offstage functionally infinite in exchange for some percent (which is a good trade). Also, can one walljump out of Sonic's side+b? If so, that is probably an infinite recovery move on stages with bases going to the bottom of the stage (side+b -> walljump -> side+b -> walljump -> etc.) but I haven't tested this so I don't know - it sounds possibly useful on maybe Dreamgreens or if you got trapped under part of New Pork City and need to stall, so it's not an issue if this works, but I'm curious about this.

 

[Bent 00]

However that's not to say that there isn't a possibly that we will add serious icons and CSP's in the future so don't get discouraged~

Interesting... I may draw a few sample CSP's and post 'em. Has anyone else shown any interest in taking a shot at this? I know our new member Dr. has experience with CSP's...

I like Pin's CSP's well enough, but I would like to see some that are more detailed.

 

[Gold_TSG]

The thing about Wolf's side b functioning like Falco's is that he's got much more gravity pulling him down, so he would fall much further before he could do it again, which would make it near-useless anywhere below the ledge, and would leave you wide open for gimping anyway.

 

[CaptainEllipsis]

Wolf's sideB is fine imo. It's already the safest move in the game; super fast and cancel-able into anything besides another B. Also, Ness can break Wolf's up-B with -one- psynet now.

IF I CAN SUGGEST SOMETHING THOUGH, can he cancel reflector into Wolfdash somehow? I kinda miss waveshine combos.

 

[Pin Clock]

That would make him more alike as well as take away from the uniqueness of Fox.

 

[CaptainEllipsis]

Also, I'd like to take a moment to say why I think Wolf's up-B needs to be reverted to the previous version.
Here's a video as well. It only shows one or two problems.

• Ness, Lucas, and many other characters can interrupt it before it finishes with a quick aerial/special/fast-starting-armor
• You can SDI out of it insanely easy
• Hitlag is 3x higher than the 2.x.6 one, and ultimately slower than the previous due to multihits
• The previous one had more advantages, and was more useful than just dragging opponents off screen at low%'s. Example: Up-B downwards (in air) while a character is on the ground would "spike" them, and sent them up, so you can JC out the rebound and do whatever, even a second one, which would send them down, and if they choose to tech or not, build off of that. Another, plus was it could be used as a grounded finisher, by going left or right without hitting with the second hit.
• The current doesn't connect as often as the previous version, nor the older one.
• The current one is -very- easy to drag characters off screen by going right/left on the ground, hitting with the last hit (if it hits), then jumping, and doing it again, going straight up. The old one prevented it by hitting 16B (whichever you're traveling).
• The current one, limits you in ways to approach, and makes you predictable (should you choose to use it), because pretty much all you can do is go up if you're airborne, or sideways, then up if you're on the ground..
• Wolf is completely vulnerable to characters like Ness offstage, and off screen, because all it takes is a Psynet > djc > uair/dair and you're dead.

Keep in mind, that while the last version didn't always connect, it wasn't supposed to for two reasons: To encourage use only at higher %'s so you couldn't drag offscreen at lower%'s, and as a way switch things up, because Wolf is a character with a -lot- of options; nearly all of his combos change between person, because all of his moves flow together. It keeps opponents on their toes, because bad DI on one move would set you up for another move (hence the higher multiplier on his aerials). Using the previous (1.1 or 3.1 whatever) version gave him a ton of options on ground and in air. Aiming yourself downwards then JCing Rebound gave you opportunities to do combos you can't do normally, and on ground, any direction (besides downwards ones, because you can't go down) was great for finishing or combos, at whichever % you wanted, depending on the spacing (which adds another element to Wolf).

Even if it's not completely reverted, and you add a "hold B" option, I'll take that over the current one.
---
I didn't see the answer to the waveshine until now, but I suppose that's fine then. I've never seen Fox actually waveshine in Minus, but I rarely play fox (or vs).

 

[justadood]

yeah, i thought reverting wolf's up B brought back that problem of being interrupted easily by characters like ness/lucas also, the hit stun it causes is extremely annoying (especially in FFAs btw, even if that's not as relevant)... it could definitely be reverted to its more minus-like version, and i say minus like because you guys made it a move that felt different to the game, but with the same function, like "hey, this is pretty cool!" ...plus, it doesn't have that fire around it to justify (and i mean like sensibly) the multi-hits... the version you guys made before was like one hit from the dash, and a kick at the end to hit them away, and it made a little more sense that way... it just felt more right, and it would remove some of these lame problems and annoyances (for both players, i.e. hit lag being so long and "drag-y") that come up with the multi-hitting version

 

[Pin Clock]

We reverted the changes to Wolf's UpB due to it not always connecting properly and due it just not feeling powerful like vBrawl/2.x.6's did. In Max it was like Hit.....Hit....oh they're dead okay.

 

[Thor]

Maybe reduce the SDI multiplier on Wolf's up+B a little then?

 

[NEWB]

All I'm saying about the previous version of his upb is that I used it and connected with a luigi rocket in the middle of pokestadium one, sending us both on a hoizontal trajectory to our mutual and simultaneous deaths (but I won cuz he died a couple frames before me) so I say revert to max 1.1. Clanging is cool and all, but I love it even more when two moves connect and kill both parties like that. It's even more awesome than clanging! I wish more physical attacks did this instead of clanging.

 

[CaptainEllipsis]

If it feels weak, just change the sfx and gfx. I see literally no reason to hang on to the current version.
And even if you remove the DI, you can still be hit during it