Brawl Minus 3.3 is BACK!

[Gold_TSG]

People need to stop looking at BALANCING as NERFING. There is a massive difference between the two. If characters have anything on them that can be exploited and is generally unfun to play against, it's going to be looked over and changed so it's not broken anymore.

Ike was not nerfed. His mechanics were changed so you could not abuse them anymore the way you once could. I main Ike, and I support the changes that have been made. NSM was too easy to get into thanks to Ike's kill power, and the eruption/counter combo was broken to shit and allowed kills way too easily. Seriously, stop crying over the loss of a "win combo."

Mario was hardly touched at all and plays pretty much exactly the same as he has, save for the metal cap and needlessly high priority dash attack.

Falco and Falcon are hardly threats if you know how to fight them, and Falcon wasn't buffed. He was tweaked.

Zelda has been a pain to fight for a while now because that's how she's played. That doesn't make her unbeatable in any way. Skill is required to get around her range and overwhelm her up close.

 

[NEWB]

Also, someone said that they got a working Rivo build with max 3.3 awhile back. Don't know if that solves your music issue.

Also, you can use sdhc cards with the project m launcher. The code is actually in the gct. Turn it on, put the project m launcher folders in the right place and your good to go! Just out pm launcher app in the apps folder and put the other pm launcher folder next to the pf folder in the minus setup. Works perfectly for me! Also, this method doesn't use stacksmash, so delete the st folder in the setup to avoid SSS crashes

 

[Thor]

Gold_TSG said [my quote doesn't work right so I do this]:
[People need to stop looking at BALANCING as NERFING. There is a massive difference between the two. If characters have anything on them that can be exploited and is generally unfun to play against, it's going to be looked over and changed so it's not broken anymore.

Ike was not nerfed. His mechanics were changed so you could not abuse them anymore the way you once could. I main Ike, and I support the changes that have been made. NSM was too easy to get into thanks to Ike's kill power, and the eruption/counter combo was broken to shit and allowed kills way too easily. Seriously, stop crying over the loss of a "win combo."

Mario was hardly touched at all and plays pretty much exactly the same as he has, save for the metal cap and needlessly high priority dash attack.
Falco and Falcon are hardly threats if you know how to fight them, and Falcon wasn't buffed. He was tweaked.

Zelda has been a pain to fight for a while now because that's how she's played. That doesn't make her unbeatable in any way. Skill is required to get around her range and overwhelm her up close.]

Ike was NOT Lucario 1.00 tier as Ike existed in 1.01, so I'm still not sure making him how he is was the best fix - in another thread I suggested counter be cancellable into a grab or tilts, and that the mechanics for triggering and ending NS mode stayed the same as 1.01 [though I'll admit this was hastily thought up - the devs probably have better ideas). Eruption -> Counter was obnoxious to go around, yes, but a lot of characters have the tools to play around it (Lucario, Dedede, ROB, and Sheik have very few issues with it, Falco and Wolf don't really care either... Falcon does not like this though). I will say that the silliness of Eruption to Counter (I zero-deathbed a Dedede with it... yes the ridiculously fat DEDEDE was zero-deathbed by a counter -> eruption *facepalm*) did mean it should be changed. I just want the ability to store Eruption back - it was a nice combo finisher and made Ike more threatening up close (maybe he doesn't need it, but the storage back would not break him in my opinion).

Falco isn't much of a threat unless he camps you to death (he's probably as campy as Dedede - in FFAs this sucks, but in 1v1 or teams it's not hard to work around if you use your tools well). Falcon zer0-deaths people but he's not a huge threat given the balance of "not god versus projectiles" (he still has raptor boost for midrange and raw speed and jumping). Falcon is also super gimpable compared to much of the cast. No idea about Mario.

Fully agree with the part about Zelda.

Also, Sammi, you should mod my post on the previous page. I have dinner right now, but if we're trying to remove some stuff off, you should do that.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Sure thing Thor.

Spoiler: Off Topic

For anyone interested, i just felt like posting a little bit of Progress here. Just a proof of concept. I show off a few things in this video, the first being the sfx that are played when the clouds are triggered. Second (and main thing) being the linking of this stage to a very distant completely different SSE stage. The door i was walking in at the end was simply a blank door that lead to nowhere, however it can be changed to lead to ANY stage in the game. Including boss fights. I also just show that everything works. Hitboxes, dying/respawning, item boxes etc

 

[Glyph]

Long time player and infrequent poster at the old forums here. First, let me say thanks for making a fantastic mod. BMM 1.0 is my favorite version of any Smash, and I really must commend the amazing work you've done to make it happen. That said, I want to offer some quick feedback. Two main points:

1) I'm still on 1.0. The main reason is because the nerfs in the changelog don't look very fun, and many of the characters my group enjoys like Mario, Lucario, and Ike keep getting nerfs while problem characters like Falcon, Falco, and Zelda can wreck shop harder than ever. This isn't the place to go into specifics; I just want you to know that selective nerfing is turning some players like us away from newer versions of the mod.

2) Bugs that crash the game are a sure fire way to ensure that as few people as possible upgrade. I don't like getting frustrated configuring XML files and trying to get BMM to work with my carefully selected custom music. I'm one of the people who will wait for another release as a result. Please consider accounting for custom music and SDHC cards.

Both very valid points. At the stage we're at in the game, we're really trying to balance characters not only in the overall tier list (which technically doesn't even exist since we can't create a truly reflective one without a massive playerbase and tourney results) but also within the characters themselves, if that makes sense. For example, Mario is not a top tier character, but his dash attack was clanging with things like fully charged smash attacks. Which in turn lead to Mario players dashing back and forth slapping out dash attacks that trump or clang with pretty much anything thrown at them. We don't want that, we want people to actually make use of ALL of Mario's tools, and so we lowered the priority. Its still a viable approach, and just as hard when it comes to pressure. It just also doesn't slam through things that it really should not have been in the first place.

The same kind of logic applies to the Ike rework (which is getting fine-tuned in the future as well). Basically the NSM became the only thing Ike players really needed to use. With the massive power boost PLUS the insane power of counter eruptions, you were pretty much foolish to NOT rush it. But again, that's not the idea of Ike. Ike's supposed to be rushing in and slugging it out with his side-b and massive hitboxes, not kind of sort of playing aggressive until he can manage to get some space and then waiting while he charged up his 'make Ike better' move. The way its coded now very much encourages players to get in there and get their hands dirty, while making use of the already wickedly powerful base Ike.

1. Falco is bad [while bad is an exaggeration, I wrote a lengthy post on it elsewhere - he has to camp, and is one of like 2 characters who must do so, because his approach is mediocre at best, and reliant on lase walls - this admittedly makes his camping super strong in FFAs though], Falcon's buff in 1.01 is really minor (I think just the Raptor Boost buff), and I don't know if Zelda got a buff to 1.01, but she takes a lot of practice to play against, but then fighting her isn't that bad. Many people are with you on the Ike nerf, but Lucario's nerfs are probably rather necessary (he was almost unarguably the best in 1.00, while now many still think he's the best). Unless you refer to Metal Mario nerfs (where the buffed version promotes running away), I don't know how Mario got nerfed. Just some input from someone who's played all 3 versions (I'd have to go to 3.3 changelogs to comment on those changes relative to 1.00, but I assure you the 1.01 was balancing in a positive direction).

2. This mod got delayed and rushed a bit at the end as far as I know, I don't have much else to say on this because I use the default music and I haven't had too many issues (more or less).

3. That was more of a one-time thing. We're normally more civil (this occurred like one other time ever, and a mod shut it down rather quickly - this one just spiraled rather fast). I'd hope you don't turn away because of one argument. If you reread what occurred, you'll notice nearly everyone tried to de-escalate the situation (I suggested each side apologize early on), and much of the community said "get over it and apologize." More or less, the community already shares your sentiments. I'll try to put this nicely and say most of us don't appreciate you implying we just fight amongst ourselves (except on Wifi, my Falco does indeed fight Glyph's ROB a lot) and assuming that we don't already know it should've been private, given the number of people who said "put it in PMs."

Also, we'd appreciate your feedback, but don't necessarily expect it put in the game.

When he said 'fight amongst ourselves' he meant on the forum, not like literal minus on wifi. And its a good point. In the same stroke, Sammi wasn't in the right when he took down that part of his post before GoldenJoe could have done it himself, but you live and learn and we move forward.

Edit: Goddamn Sammi you never cease to amaze me with the stuff you've pulled off in this game in such short time none the less

 

[Gold_TSG]

Thor. I love Ike. I use him a lot. As much as I'd like the charge back (with the changes I mentioned in the other thread that would make him less likely to get it after every stock), I'm fine with him as is. It feels rewarding to work towards that extra power.

 

[Thor]

When he said 'fight amongst ourselves' he meant on the forum, not like literal minus on wifi.

I was making a joke. It must not have been funny.

Thor. I love Ike. I use him a lot. As much as I'd like the charge back (with the changes I mentioned in the other thread that would make him less likely to get it after every stock), I'm fine with him as is. It feels rewarding to work towards that extra power.

All I really want from Ike at this point is the ability to store Eruption again, and not have it trigger NS mode. If more stuff happesn to him I'll probably appreciate it; I just miss hitting people with a fully charged Eruption (now you either choose between Flourish or the Eruption, and Eruption doesn't see use outside of that or a very rare attempt to KO someone/super-armor through an attack). The other stuff I mentioned is probably not needed.

 

[Bent 00]

What was so "wonky" about Snake's air dodge cancels on aerial grenade hold that the cancel had to be removed?

 

[Sammi-husky]

It was seen to disrupt his gameplay too much and became detrimental to the health of snake as a character while he was trying to do other things. At least this is what i heard. Im not entirely sure who took it out and why, I'm sure pin would know. Just know that it wasn't taken out for a balancing reason. it was intended to make him play smoother

 

[Bent 00]

Any chance the Team will do something about Snake's tendency to walljump to his death during his Cypher recovery?

 

[NEWB]

Please remove that damn wall jump! I've said it several times back at smashmods. It's just the stupidest thing ever!

The air cancel grenade had weird issues. When you take out a grenade and then airdodge to hold it like a normal item, you drop it again sometimes when you press a on the ground to throw it, but it does jab instead. Didn't always happen, but it slowed him down and messes you up half the time. Maybe it's being perfected?

Would also like to know if the known issues with strap loader and randoms will be addressed soon.

 

[Bent 00]

Why is the camera so sensitive now? Was that an intentional change? It's headache-inducing... It has practically ruined Hyrule Castle for me. Is there a way I can fix it myself, or will I have to wait for the next update?

Also, what causes the top of Mario's head to vanish during his side taunt? I tried replacing the appealS.chr0 file in his FitMotionEtc with the one from MAX 1.0, but his head still disappears. :/

 

[Thor]

I would like to see Snake not lose walljump, but just walljump out of Cypher, if possible (maybe you can find a way to program it like his/a helpless state somehow? I have no idea how coding works, but this is an idea...)

I need to play some Hyrule castle to see what the camera issue is - I had a match there but wasn't paying attention, so I might've missed the issue...

 

[Bent 00]

Yeah, if it's all or nothing with Snake's wall jumps, keep it in...

The sensitive camera issue is most noticeable with just two players on certain stages, like Hyrule Temple and Fourside.

Is it just me, or is the camera much more sensitive in all stages?

 

[Gold_TSG]

The camera is only different in the melee and 64 stages. I don't know why, but they're using the camera type FROM melee/64 I believe.

 

[CaptainEllipsis]

Small thing, but can Luigi get SOME kind of cancel (or surprise buff/armor) on his UDU taunt? It's pretty fun, but ultimately does nothing and ends in disappointment.
Also 100% agree with the Snake walljump cancel being removed.

 

[NEWB]

Why would you rather keep snakes wall jump if he can't lose the gay wall jump out cipher? If it's all or nothing, I'd rather go nothing. Wall jumping is virtually useless one the legal stages anyway and only see some use by other chars on the counter picks.

 

[Thor]

It's useful if you get meteored or something and then you jump at the base of Dreamgreens - you can walljump away for some distance away and extra height. I think you can walljump elsewhere, I'd have to look.

There's also the fact that Snake would be literally the only character who can't walljump - something about that just seems wrong to me.

 

[Other Aether]

Why is the camera so sensitive now? Was that an intentional change? It's headache-inducing... It has practically ruined Hyrule Castle for me. Is there a way I can fix it myself, or will I have to wait for the next update?

Have you tried reverting the .pac and .rel files back for Bridge of Eldin back to v1.01?

 

[NEWB]

But it harms him more than it helps. Two or three stages are very negligible. The issue then becomes the recovery itself. Maybe grant him slightly more range in exchange. It doesn't feel wrong at all if removing it helps more than it hurts.

 

[Pin Clock]

If we allow him to Cypher again after walljumping, the recovery becomes too safe
There is no way to remove the walljump itself due to how walljumps in Minus work for characters that didn't walljump in vBrawl

 

[NEWB]

Lame.... So many SDs.... And yeah that would be much too safe.

Can his wall jump itself somehow be adjusted? I mean it pushes him so far off the stage and his physics do not allow you to really move backwards at all...

 

[?0123456789?]

Does the Minus team plan on releasing a patch in the near future to address the last few remaining freezing issues and other small stuff or are you guys waiting for the next big release to do so? I'm curious because I've been checking in daily to see if anything has been resolved but honestly I don't know what to expect. Also, I remember at one point hearing that 3.3 was the first half or transition to another upcoming big release later this year? Is there an estimated time of completion on that as well? I don't expect another big release for at least a few months but at least I can have some idea and something to look forward to.

 

[SunderStorm]

I really regret the loss of the 1.0 portraits. I'm currently on 1.01 with 3.3 fighter files so that I can keep my old installation with the new content (besides Pichu). I'm part of the gaming club at my university and those portraits were an easy hook for the random casual to walk by and go "oh that looks really cool show me more about what you're playing". That and random skins (Billy Mays Ganondorf is always a hit). I love Brawl Minus and I feel like it's a real shame that we are hardly recognized at all. We had a pretty sizable head start over Project M but if you look at something like say the SmashBros reddit, you'll see that we get a paltry amount of recognition.

I've been trying to make Brawl Minus a thing where I am for two years now (playing since beta) and this new patch isn't making things any easier. I'd much rather the game look really cool and badass instead of this 'stylistic suck' thing that it's going for if not only for the appeal factor to the general masses. I don't want the first reaction of someone to be "oh look at how dumb that looks they're not even taking themselves seriously". There's this idea that Brawl Minus is somehow a joke or stupid mod, and I completely disagree. I find it interesting, super fun, and even competitive. So much so that I've made it my mission to convince people of how awesome this game is. Alas it seems sometimes that I'm fighting an uphill battle, even with how well I think the game is designed.

I think the reason that was given for using the new portraits was to pave way for the more skins mod? I don't think that's necessary at all. I don't need or want 10 skins per character at the expense of the game looking cool. I don't mean to necessarily diss on the current artwork, but seriously, that sprite artwork was on another level.

P.S. On a character design standpoint though...spot on guys keep up the great work.

 

[NEWB]

The skin portraits are the way they are because those other portraits would take far too long to make. I thought there was also something about them being made for pm originally.

Hopefully, they will find time to focus more on stuff like this in the future. I honestly wouldn't mind if all an entire patch was were bug fixes and aesthetic improvements.