Bashdemears
Jiggs2stronk
She isn;t already? :O
Moves that need Buffing or Re-Working to be viable
- Thread starter Bent 00
- Start date
She isn;t already? :O
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Speaking of throws, what can Ike's fThrow do besides be abusive against walls? I don't really grab much besides for his uThrow.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I want Warlock Punch to have zero endlag in the air.
I still want the cancel as a whole (the move is still ridiculously useless offline and only good online for pure trolling because mild lag can screw people - @Greatest_Aether can attest to that) but just an aerial no endlag so he can go offstage in the most disrespectful way possible would be sweet. Yeah I know if you hit it cancels, but it shouldn't be a suicide-oh-wait-only-you-die, because that's what side+B does already. [Also I'm not saying cancel on Gandouken - use that offstage, you die, I think that's totally fair.]
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Also can Falco get slow lasers back? They are more fun. @Pin Clock if not, can I get a reason why? They don't fix uthrow/bthrow (more below on that), which I believe was one rationale for speeding them up.
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I also think Peach's fthrow should be a little less harsh, but extend the grab as LB said. I've said this elsewhere, but remove the "This is FUN!" on fthrow, speed it up even w/out it (to make DI slightly hard if you aren't ready), make DI do more against it [raise angle?] (and maybe remove a tiny bit of the KBG), and then add the "This is FUN!" to dthrow (and make dthrow set up for combos if it doesn't.) Seeing Peach yell "This is FUN!" before butt-slamming someone I think would be hilarious and Minusy [and if dthrow doesn't combo, well, now it does!].
Falco's bthrow can have all the lasers avoided by DIing down and you can still SDI out of the lasers of bthrow somewhat easily to avoid followups. I dunno how to fix it though... maybe the bthrow does all the damage and the lasers do no damage but induce hitstun (For followups on bad DI)?
Uthrow still sucks hard [faster lasers don't fix the issue]. But someone explained why that's really hard to fix so yah. However if you edited bthrow like I suggested, that would fix part of uthrow's problem - DI frees one from all laser damage [although the positional advantage of uthrow isn't as good for Falco as the advantage of bthrow, fthrow, or dthrow - it may be the worst throw in Minus].
Flourish should have zero SDI multiplier or something - I've SDI'd out and punished Ike for using Flourish - that's dumb.
Not sure of other moves that need fixing, but if I think of any I'll post here.
In regards to earlier posts...
Fast Falcon Punch having any sort of I-frames is just dumb. No. But I would love grab immunity + super armor on the punch INSTEAD OF invincibility that can be grabbed (because landing two hits and getting RR'd out of it by Bowser is just dumb).
Throw them offstage and edgeguard [i.e. positional advantage]. Maybe set up for a razing eruption if you can throw them near the edge and they don't tech and you read the missed tech?
This is just plain dumb. If a move isn't useful in at least one situation, it's useful in no situations, and therefore terrible [and no, the situation of trolling doesn't count]. Gandouken is useful so neutral+b does pass the test, but telling someone "We're gonna make a useless move, make it useful!" is just moronic, since if the move isn't useful in a situation, it could just be removed entirely and the character would be no worse off [which is anti-Minus, but also just anti-good character building, since you automatically just gave one character fewer tools than a good character, like ROB and/or Falcon]. Moves CAN be redundant or highly situational (in Melee, every move on Falco was useful, though ftilt and fair weren't useful often and for Fox, dthrow often did the same thing as uthrow, where you had to pick between a tech chase and hoping they couldn't SDI), but if a move literally doesn't serve a purpose, it just shouldn't be there [ignoring ultrataunts here, as Luigi's is amazing].
Now I'm not saying design stuff to be for a certain situation and "spoon-feed" players or whatever, but if a move has no use whatsoever, and players can't find one for it, it needs to be revamped. Ganondorf Neutral+b is a grounded projectile, and I [and Bent] stated I [we] want more from it, though that doesn't mean it NEEDS more. But c'mon, it's Minus and it'd be fun...
Sorry to go way back but parts of this thread bugged me before and it just got re-bumped so I dropped this here.
I still want the cancel as a whole (the move is still ridiculously useless offline and only good online for pure trolling because mild lag can screw people - @Greatest_Aether can attest to that) but just an aerial no endlag so he can go offstage in the most disrespectful way possible would be sweet. Yeah I know if you hit it cancels, but it shouldn't be a suicide-oh-wait-only-you-die, because that's what side+B does already. [Also I'm not saying cancel on Gandouken - use that offstage, you die, I think that's totally fair.]
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Also can Falco get slow lasers back? They are more fun. @Pin Clock if not, can I get a reason why? They don't fix uthrow/bthrow (more below on that), which I believe was one rationale for speeding them up.
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I also think Peach's fthrow should be a little less harsh, but extend the grab as LB said. I've said this elsewhere, but remove the "This is FUN!" on fthrow, speed it up even w/out it (to make DI slightly hard if you aren't ready), make DI do more against it [raise angle?] (and maybe remove a tiny bit of the KBG), and then add the "This is FUN!" to dthrow (and make dthrow set up for combos if it doesn't.) Seeing Peach yell "This is FUN!" before butt-slamming someone I think would be hilarious and Minusy [and if dthrow doesn't combo, well, now it does!].
Falco's bthrow can have all the lasers avoided by DIing down and you can still SDI out of the lasers of bthrow somewhat easily to avoid followups. I dunno how to fix it though... maybe the bthrow does all the damage and the lasers do no damage but induce hitstun (For followups on bad DI)?
Uthrow still sucks hard [faster lasers don't fix the issue]. But someone explained why that's really hard to fix so yah. However if you edited bthrow like I suggested, that would fix part of uthrow's problem - DI frees one from all laser damage [although the positional advantage of uthrow isn't as good for Falco as the advantage of bthrow, fthrow, or dthrow - it may be the worst throw in Minus].
Flourish should have zero SDI multiplier or something - I've SDI'd out and punished Ike for using Flourish - that's dumb.
Not sure of other moves that need fixing, but if I think of any I'll post here.
In regards to earlier posts...
Fast Falcon Punch having any sort of I-frames is just dumb. No. But I would love grab immunity + super armor on the punch INSTEAD OF invincibility that can be grabbed (because landing two hits and getting RR'd out of it by Bowser is just dumb).
Throw them offstage and edgeguard [i.e. positional advantage]. Maybe set up for a razing eruption if you can throw them near the edge and they don't tech and you read the missed tech?
This is just plain dumb. If a move isn't useful in at least one situation, it's useful in no situations, and therefore terrible [and no, the situation of trolling doesn't count]. Gandouken is useful so neutral+b does pass the test, but telling someone "We're gonna make a useless move, make it useful!" is just moronic, since if the move isn't useful in a situation, it could just be removed entirely and the character would be no worse off [which is anti-Minus, but also just anti-good character building, since you automatically just gave one character fewer tools than a good character, like ROB and/or Falcon]. Moves CAN be redundant or highly situational (in Melee, every move on Falco was useful, though ftilt and fair weren't useful often and for Fox, dthrow often did the same thing as uthrow, where you had to pick between a tech chase and hoping they couldn't SDI), but if a move literally doesn't serve a purpose, it just shouldn't be there [ignoring ultrataunts here, as Luigi's is amazing].
Now I'm not saying design stuff to be for a certain situation and "spoon-feed" players or whatever, but if a move has no use whatsoever, and players can't find one for it, it needs to be revamped. Ganondorf Neutral+b is a grounded projectile, and I [and Bent] stated I [we] want more from it, though that doesn't mean it NEEDS more. But c'mon, it's Minus and it'd be fun...
Sorry to go way back but parts of this thread bugged me before and it just got re-bumped so I dropped this here.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
I'd support having the cancel returned.
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I must be the only person on the forums who still gets hit by Warlock Punches. Because lag.
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Ike fThrow knocks them in the air, so they can double jump can completely ignore your Razing Eruption, and punish you for it. Like how they can with Flourish. Devs should remove SDI factor in Flourish. It makes no sense why it was in there in the first plafe.
Thor
Well-Known Member
To be honest, I STILL think Peach fthrow is too strong even with her stubby grab range (I'm not actually a huge fan of Kirby uthrow either, but I like it because I play some Kirby, I think Kirby needs a little love in the KO department, and it reminds me of that E3 build where it KO'd at like 90% without vectoring, which I was SO hoping would be in Smash 4...). So my Peach changes were independent of a grab range extension (though they would probably come with a grab range extension, as making dthrow a combo throw [with the "THIS IS FUN!"] but slightly nerfing fthrow's KO potential is likely a net nerf).
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Let's hope Marth and Roy get theirs.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
Kirby is far from lacking in KO power.
I like peach's fthrow with its SFX.
I don't care for the return of warlock punch cancel in the air. Not really opposed or against it.
I can see why you would think what Sammi said sounds dumb but it makes a lot more sense. It is more fun to try and find a use for a move that didn't seem like it had a use. Smash 4 had a lot of moves that felt useless and that found uses later. It made the game a whole lot better.
I like peach's fthrow with its SFX.
I don't care for the return of warlock punch cancel in the air. Not really opposed or against it.
I can see why you would think what Sammi said sounds dumb but it makes a lot more sense. It is more fun to try and find a use for a move that didn't seem like it had a use. Smash 4 had a lot of moves that felt useless and that found uses later. It made the game a whole lot better.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I meant that I would suggest nerfing uthrow, but his uthrow is his best reliable thing - his smashes are short-range, good luck landing hammer, and his gimping power is ok but not fantastic (Then again, I play Falco a bunch against Kirby so bias) [I think Puff still beats him in that department]. Kirbycide is ok but gimmicky. So what I meant is that I would suggest nerfing uthrow, but it's his only really reliable KO method - and Kirby doesn't have time to waste damage-racking to KO with a bair or dash attack when he's so lightweight that he'll lose most trades.
Currently, Kirby has good KO power. However, you remove uthrow, and all of a sudden, I see a character who has several situational and/or very-hard-to-land KO moves. That's why I stated I don't want to nerf uthrow [and if someone buffs it... well, that'd be dumb, because it's already super strong].
I addressed that above.
I don't mind it there, but I think it would be funnier on dthrow, and it means that fthrow has this demonic angle, and when you know you're going to die, her doing that is annoying (As compared to Ness and Kirby, who just get rid of you when they kill you). I think her grab is also stronger than theirs (Kirby's maybe, Ness's I'm nearly positive unless that was buffed a ton).
I just hope some devs see that if you want to use one really dumb edgeguard, it's fine - not that you have to have no lag on the ground (which would be nice), but if you go for it and miss, you're offstage as Ganondorf, with an opponent probably onstage - that's usually a fantastically awful place to be [especially vs Falco, Kirby, Fox, another Ganondorf, Falcon, Pikachu, and Puff, to name a few]. Making an offstage Warlock Punch not certain death, but only a bad spot and probably death, would be greatly appreciated.
I get the point of "look for a use", but Sammi was saying "We're not going to fix moves that have been proven useless." In other Smash games you can get by with terrible moves in your moveset (Falco fair is pretty terrible in Brawl, MK usmash is basically useless, Dedede fsmash is almost worthless, but they're all good characters in Brawl [ignoring that MK hard counters Dedede]), but in Minus you basically need most of your moveset to be good, or else have a few REALLY powerful tools (Minus ROB and Sheik have both, Falco has most of his tools being good but situational, I'll admit I don't use some of Falcon's stuff a lot but his aerials, raw speed, raptor boost, falcon kick, and jab give him so much that if he has a questionable dtilt or whatever, he's still fine). If you don't have either, you're in trouble (Which is how I feel when I play Pichu, to be honest).
Darxmarx
The Learning Star Warrior
Let's just replace all of Peach's sfx with This is fun. Everybody wins.
Is Peach's fthrow really stronger than Kirby's uthrow? Kirby's uthrow kills more reliably for me because DI doesn't affect it nearly as much. Then again, I'm not always thrown by Peach near the end of a stage, so I just might not remember that many of my deaths.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Are you saying Ness has bad throws?
Yes.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I was stating that when Ness bthrows, he kills you quick. Peach holds you there and it's annoying to see the SFX every time in my opinion. I think it would be cooler/funnier on dthrow.
I don't know which has greater KBG/kills earlier, but I suppose I could test on a Bowser...
I think part of the problem is I tend to play Falco, a relatively fast-faller who is lightweight, so I die to Peach fthrow just as early, if not earlier, than Kirby uthrow, since fallspeed affects how early you die off the top more than weight in most smash games (Brawl had momentum cancelling which did some derpy stuff to the numbers, but in Melee it was almost entirely fallspeed, with weight only affecting a few [like Falcon > Falco > Fox if memory serves]).
They both kill super early, regardless.
Also I just realized it. Although it's going to be nerfed, strongest throw is MK uthrow, hands-down.
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Gold_TSG
Can't stop The Dorf Train.
Kirby's uthrow is dependant on the height of the top blast line, the opponent's weight, DI and damage to determine how early it kills. Peach's fthrow follows all of the mentioned (sans the top blastline), expect her placement on the stage has a stronger effect on how early she kills. The two aren't comparable.
GaMeZ
Well-Known Member
Need more big dumb gimmicks. For everyone.
*Drops the mike for the 48th time*
In all seriousness business, when Bent suggested an invincible punch, and Pin said it was would be too broken, I had a bit of an ironic laugh. I want Smash DBZ. I want to go into the patch notes and first thing I see is Mario's neutral B hold move hit like a bomb-omb. Bam, status quo fulfilled. Hes broken . Give him accessible mushrooms and metal caps(oh wait) and call it a day. Buuuuut maybe thats why I'm not a dev. Heheheh.(But yeah, I really do want all moves to basically explode)
Someone ban that man!
Huuuuuh? Did I hear something? Why yes, my ideas are incredible. Thank you.
*Drops the mike for the 48th time*
In all seriousness business, when Bent suggested an invincible punch, and Pin said it was would be too broken, I had a bit of an ironic laugh. I want Smash DBZ. I want to go into the patch notes and first thing I see is Mario's neutral B hold move hit like a bomb-omb. Bam, status quo fulfilled. Hes broken . Give him accessible mushrooms and metal caps(oh wait) and call it a day. Buuuuut maybe thats why I'm not a dev. Heheheh.(But yeah, I really do want all moves to basically explode)
Someone ban that man!
Huuuuuh? Did I hear something? Why yes, my ideas are incredible. Thank you.
Thor
Well-Known Member
I think the stall when Falcon dies it is to make it easier to tech, even in lag. That's an opinion, but I find Minus Falcon hugs the easiest thing to tech basically in the whole game.
I want metal taunt sped up or to have more health, but I think I'm alone there.
I don't want Mario's fireballs to be bom-ombs though. Unless you want every Fox laser to hit like a smart bomb too (and sorry, but that would be just gross).
Greatest_Aether
Forum Reg of sorts
Ike's Eruption when not in No Sympathy Mode is good for...
ground > air combos
Thor
Well-Known Member
Roll reads from the ledge [I think you can space it to also avoid getup attack, so it can cover two options]. Closer to the ledge I think it can cover neutral getup and ledgehop (and trying to DJ back on). The armor on it (I think when it's released but before the hitbox is out) lets you armor though getup attacks too if I'm not mistaken.
I think it has a meteor smash on the tip of it, so if you learn to space that you could have super scary edgeguarding with it.
It has enough KB to be a vertical KO move at high percents (if you can't seem to land a uair or utilt on Puff, it might be better at like 130% than a fair that would send her cross-stage on FD or whatever).
Aha... Oh man.
Anyway, this site is acting up on me... so I'm gonna... be back sometime tonight I think.