Moves that need Buffing or Re-Working to be viable

Discussion in 'Characters' started by Bent 00, Jul 4, 2014.

  1. Baby_Sneak

    Baby_Sneak Active Member

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    not exactly safer, more rewarding. When jiggly and her opponent are offstage and she's behind them

    EDIT: nvm what I said about Dacus upsmash, or rest
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2014
  2. Bashdemears

    Bashdemears Jiggs2stronk

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    If you're within range for usmash, you're with range for rest. If you can kill with usmash, you can kill with rest.
    Okay, at that point you should fair, or bair because faster, more range, and KO power. Bair even eats through alot of other arieals and some special moves.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2014
  3. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    I'mma let you finish, Jigglypuff, but Ganondorf just got his Warlock Punch Cancel back!

    Unofficially, anyway. Check it out here for Flying Warlock Punch greatness.
     
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  4. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    We got you covered. That's all that can be said.
     
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  5. The Concept

    The Concept Philosopher & Assassin

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    Great to hear. Looking forward to it.
     
  6. Valravn

    Valravn Active Member

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    I was messing around with some Sonic strats today, trying to figure out if the Spin Dash (Pretty sure that's what they call the Down-B?) is ever useful.
    It has an absurd start-up time compared to the rest of Sonic's horizontal movement options, it isn't particularly fast, and it doesn't deal much damage. If you manage to connect (and your opponent fails to react at all during your massive end-lag) you can get a followup with a short-hopped Fair or something; but you could do more damage using Boost -> basically any other option and use a different followup.

    I compiled a list of useful situations for the Spin Dash:

    1. You want to feint an approach and use the Spin Dash's jump functionality to hop over or above the opponent instead. This would be a good use, except there's no reason your opponent should expect you to connect the spin dash in any case.

    I don't ever consider using the move to be my best option for approaching, evading, dealing damage, or even just messing with spacing. It's hard to beat Boost's horizontal movement capabilities, so I think that Spin Dash should either do something else as a main focus or allow for a different sort of horizontal motion. I was considering the implications of being able to cancel Spin Dash into a taunt at any time. If one were to use a taunt during the move, one could instantly stop to taunt. Sonic has (I think) the unique property of instantly-cancellable taunts, so one could then act with liberty after immediately stopping. This is assuming that momentum wouldn't be maintained between the Spin Dash and the taunt, and I'm not actually sure if it could work that way. The move would then exchange higher startup time (compared to Boost) for more options at the end of the move.

    For example, if I want to move across the stage and use Up-Smash, I have a couple options.

    1. Walk over and use the move (lame, but accurate.)

    2. Run over while timing the hyphen smash (really fast, but inaccurate)

    3. Boost over, pivot/crouch brake and then use the move (can be very fast, but easy to evade)

    Or, with this change:

    4. Spin dash to the side, taunt, up smash (startup animation gives it away immediately, but very fast and accurate)

    The alternative would be to give a reason for a player to actually connect the move. (So that feinting could be useful.) Somewhat more damage, or popping up the target to a better combo angle.

    Just spitballing. If anyone else finds the move to be useful, I'd love to know how.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2014
  7. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    IIRC you can cancel dash attack into spin dash.
     
  8. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Fight me on wifi and I'll show you just how wrong you are. But if you can't do that and just want me to explain how the move is good I guess you can let me know.
     
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  9. Valravn

    Valravn Active Member

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    I won't have wifi for a bit yet, so I suppose words will have to do. I'd love to play against you when I get wifi set up, though. What do you use it for?
     
  10. Baby_Sneak

    Baby_Sneak Active Member

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    i think ice climbers needs some help. they produce low damage compared to the cast, the only moderately consistent damage combination they have is Dthrow/Fthrow --> Fair --> ice block/blizzard, and if the opponent techs ( which they most likely will if they're good), then you can only do blizzard and that requires insane reflexes. Not to mention how most, if not all the cast are capable of separating them easily ( or if Captain falcon's case, he just needs to space good, but this MU was bad since melee, but doable). So, im proposing a chaingrab for ICs (not INFINITE, thats different), remove the ice from Dair, and have the knockback just 'pops' up the opponent. If anybody disagrees, please do.
     
  11. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Valravn, minus has wifi built in its codes now with....wiimm? Is that what it's called?

    Unless you lack internet, you should be able to connect to wifi.
     
  12. Valravn

    Valravn Active Member

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    Never mind my complaints about Spin Dash, as usual when I think a move is bad I am simply using it poorly. Somehow I didn't realize before that one could immediately use aerials out of Spin Dash in the air, which makes it a really good combo move. I'd still like to know what you do with it though, Kienamaru.

    (I still think that it'd be cool to be able to taunt-cancel it, but I'm not sure whether that would give Sonic too many mixup moves.)

    EDIT: I do lack internet, I'm posting from a nearby library. Soon, though!
     
  13. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Sonic's dash attack cancels into taunts or maybe just side taunt. Dash attack is already jump cancelable I think, but this is useful to cancel into a ground move.

    Also, did you figure out how dash attack cancels into spin dash? By simply pressing B.

    I try not to offend, but not knowing about his spind dash canceling in the air into moves like you said makes me...unsure about how much you know about him. Are you somewhat new to minus?

    If you have any more questions, be sure to let us know! The only changelogs around here are the ones from recent updates. You'd have to dig around here to otherwise find out things.
     
  14. Valravn

    Valravn Active Member

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    I've been playing Minus for about 6 months, though not much Sonic until the past two months. I am aware that dash attack cancels into Spin Dash.

    As to the revelation about aerials out of the airborne Spin Dash, let's just say it was more of me not realizing that as a unique effect than me not knowing to do that. I feel particularly silly about calling the move useless because I've actually used it for chasing with aerials pretty regularly for weeks. Mentally, I assumed I was using the moves at the end of a homing attack, but homing attack and Spin Dash are distinct. Perhaps it's a holdover from watching others play Sonic in vBrawl (I never really played him then) and assuming all of the shitty spinning moves were the same. I had to take some time in a few practice matches against AI to map out the actual mechanics of the move to make sure I knew what I was talking about, and found out I didn't.
     
  15. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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  16. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    Still a very very bad idea. Instant Punch is much better in combos, and isn't really a trading move. Hell a Falcon Punch as fast as an fSmash should not have armor on it. Who does Falcon think he is? Bowser?
     
  17. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Still a bad idea. More or less for the same reason, even if it is only slight armor.
     
  18. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    So this is peach's grab range:[​IMG]
    Doesn't even reach her hand 'nuff said.
    Also her ftilt is kind of useless except against heavier characters or people with exceptionally crappy DI.
     
  19. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Her grab game isn't where she is strongest, but I don't know about other characters grab ranges or what her grab range is relative to vbrawl.

    Also, her ftilt never felt bad to me. Can't it juggle a couple hits or combo into fsmash or uptilt? Or does DI ruin that?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2014
  20. Bashdemears

    Bashdemears Jiggs2stronk

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    Jiggs uthrow. Cmon. Can't follow up with anything.
     
  21. Sammi-husky

    Sammi-husky Scientist #1 Minus Backroom

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    She has short grab ranges because we programmed her to have the strongest throw in the game, give or take a few exceptions for special cases. her f-throw to be specific. Look at other characters grabs who have short ranges, most don't extend all the way out to the extremities.
     
  22. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    Kirby's grab range is larger. Kirby's. Titchy armed characters shouldn't have longer grab ranges than humans.I'd at least like the animation to match up to the hitbox. As for ftilt, nair bair or fair is possible at low percent but it has huge kb scaling from what I've seen. It only combos at really low percents.
     
  23. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    So I don't rage as hard lol. I don't really want a buff, I realize that would be incredibly stupid. I think It'sd be hilarious if her arm shrank when she grabbed or something lol. I made a joke last night on irc about how she drives the karts in mario kart with her forearms.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2014
  24. Glyph

    Glyph Moderator

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    My personal fix to this problem would be to expand peach's grab to where her hand is, but also nerf fthrow by lowering the damage by 3 or 4% and raising the angle like 15 degrees or so. Otherwise you run the risk of her becoming fthrow the character.
     
  25. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    I don't want that just make the animation match up.
     

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