Moves that need Buffing or Re-Working to be viable

Discussion in 'Characters' started by Bent 00, Jul 4, 2014.

  1. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    You misquoting me to make it look like I'm saying things I'm not is ridiculous.

    Kirby WOULD need love in the KO department IF he didn't have uthrow, because then he'd have fsmash (a little slow), dsmash (faster, but unreliably short-ranged), usmash (still fairly slow), and hammer, which is super slow (But can be set up if your opponent can't SDI fair). Kirbycides don't count [like, no], and his gimp game is fine but it's not better than Falco's or Puff's in my opinion.

    Uthrow gives him the last tool to make fsmash and usmash better KO moves, since otherwise shield would be perfectly safe vs Kirby [and shieldgrab would make him cry].

    P.S: If Kirby was, say, Mario's weight, or Falcon's, or something, his KO power sans uthrow is fine, because he can take a beating. But Kirby dies SUPER fast, so he needs reliable KO stuff, since he can't waste time building percent, since trades just wreck him.

    Also Peach fair should probably be slightly buffed - not a lot, but maybe like 3 or 4 points of KBG would help her out.
     
  2. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Make Popo throw Nana like a projectile as an attack (no, not up B) and I'll come back to Minus. I'll even main ICs.
     
  3. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    They could probably reanimate their side special to do that :p
     
  4. Doqtor Kirby

    Doqtor Kirby Resident Design Nitpicker Minus Backroom

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  5. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Thor, what I was getting at, is that Kirby doesn't lack KO power at all. Even if he didn't have uthrow he'd be fine. Raw KO power and ability to KO aren't the same thing. Kirby has good KO power with all his smashes and Uthrow as well as hammer and block (down B) He has great ability to KO by setting up into those moves with literally over half of his moveset. Utilt, dtilt, and fair can all combo into hammer. Ftilt can combo into his smashes. Any move that makes them airborne can be baired to death with improper DI, etc. There's a LOT that he can do even if he didn't have his uthrow is what I'm getting at. His combos can easily hit 60% which isn't something anyone can shake a stick at. Building damage is his specialty.
     
  6. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    First things first... either A) reintroduce the single-hit version of Pikachu's fsmash, or B) remove all SDI from it - there are many times when I've had an opponent SDI out of the last hit of fsmash, when the last hit was all I really wanted... an old changelog read "There was no reason not to use the multi-hit version from the start", but there is, and it's called SDI. Pikachu's fsmash is inconsistent for KOing as is, and I think that being more consistent in Brawl than in Minus is just dumb [if I land it at KO percents in Brawl, they are dead - that's not the case in Minus, they might live because of SDI].

    ALSO, @Pin Clock I think Fire Bird should be changed in the following manner: Re-add the "Personally, I prefer FIRE!" with no flames around him during the saying. HOWEVER, if you press something (I dunno, hold B, A Z, whatever) either before the saying starts or before the word "I" or something, Falco blasts off with a Brawl or Melee or Smash 4 or 2.x.6 (just something shorter than the current length) Fire Bird travel distance, but if you wait until the word "FIRE!" he does the current full-length charge. As it stands, Falco is probably the hardest to gimp character in the game, because Fire Bird has so much protection around it on movement and startup, and because Falco has one of the best anti-edgeguard tools in the game, which is having multiple jumps and his dair [as well as side+b with a walljump to get around prospective edgeguarders at least somewhat, though this doesn't always work since he can be hit out of this move]. Currently, the only real counterplay available to the entire cast is a perfectly timed ledgehog and punishing the endlag on stage, and with so few ledge I-frames, this is VERY difficult. This change would at least make Falco somewhat easier to gimp, because as of now, he's harder to gimp than Puff in my opinion, which is kind of dumb.

    At the same time, he NEEDS a fast version of fire bird [that is, as fast as the current version], or else he literally can't use fire bird vs Puff (the gravity taunt), and that's just stupid.

    If by shake a stick at, you mean match...

    If we're going with improper DI, Falco can EASILY do 60% combos. The problem is, you SDI his utilt and Falco's hosed, and you have to read SDI for nair to be any good.

    60% combos that end with the uppercut on up+B as Ganondorf aren't that hard. Zero-to-death. He can do other 60% combos easily.

    Falcon can do jab combo -> dash attack -> uair -> uair -> nair -> knee for a zero-to-death as well, and has other strings that go to 60% easily.

    Pikachu has bair -> nair for a KO seupt, QAC -> fsmash for a potential shield break -> skull bash (though I'm under the impression our little mouse wasn't intended as a destroyer of shields, so I'd guess this is being removed...), uair -> anything, and can usmash -> thunder -> read tech (or just thunder KOs off the top). Bair -> uair -> bair -> whatever can work as well.

    The problem with all of those Kirby setups is that they can be DI'd rather easily (except I guess dtilt hammer, I can't figure out for the life of me how to DI dtilt). Falco's dair is a somewhat reliable setup move in that it can combo into fsmash (But this has to be by the ledge to KO more often than not) or a uair if you've hit the dair well (Again, percents are picky). Ganondorf can setup into a number of easy reads that aren't DI-dependent [only tech dependent, and warlock kick vs ftilt the other direction covers literally every option] with a single side+b, and landing an aerial one allows him to do a stomp if they miss the tech [that tech is hard]. Falcon has almost anything -> knee or an edgeguard. Sheik can do ftilt -> basically anything (and ftilt KOs too). Most, if not all, of these setups are more reliable than a lot of Kirby's stuff. And as I've said earlier, I think Kirby doesn't have time to waste racking damage; trades for him are almost always of the negative variety (trading with the hammer, a smash attack, and getting a grab off his grab armor, are the only exceptions I can think of - almost any character in the game would be willing to trade with basically any other move at any percent below 100, and many at higher percents depending on position, which is not good for him).

    Since shield shuts down all of his setups (except dthrow -> fair, which you can bet I'll be SDIing like crazy since I've had the whole dthrow animation to prepare), and allows most characters to set up whatever they want with a simple jump backwards, I'm of the opinion that he needs that grab to keep him able to apply better pressure. You can say Luigi is shut down by shield too, but Luigi is heavier and he can reliably chip at the shield from mid-range with fireballs - and if any of those aren't shielded, he can tornado in and convert (and he can tornado right on by if he misreads it, OR stay there - 50-50 as to if he goes on or not, and if they react wrong, a punish for Luigi or a reset). Most characters have something like this that alleviates their problems (or a throw directly into a kill move, not into a move into a kill move), but Kirby... he's got bthrow and dthrow into bair or fair, but SDI fair and DI bthrow away, and he's left with needing uthrow. That's how I see it, at least.

    P.S: If he has his old silly fsmash that was almost unpunishable on shield (couldn't be shieldgrabbed) I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but all of his moves that set up into KOs are unsafe on shield except dtilt, which I think might be unsafe with a quick punish anyway (ex: Falcon might be able to drop shield run up SH uair or something.)

    P.P.S: This all came about because some people were talking about some stuff as if they meant Kirby uthrow should be nerfed. I'm not saying buff it (that'd be dumb), I'm just saying it's fine as is (please don't nerf), and that I think it fits well into making Kirby a more rounded character, taking his KO options from mediocre to good. That's all. If you thought I meant something else, we can drop it or whatever.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2015
  7. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Sounds like you never played a good Kirby to me.
     
  8. Greatest_Aether

    Greatest_Aether Forum Reg of sorts

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  9. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    I've played Darxmarx. I shield a fair bit and if it weren't for uthrow I'd do it all the time at high percent because he's not gonna kill me with dthrow -> ... -> hammer or anything.

    I get fair -> hammer'd sometimes but that's usually a byproduct of me messing up. Most the rest of his KOs are misspaces (so punishes). Kirby's strong, but when Falco's killing him at around the same percents [and Falco has lackluster power - fsmash is nice, but not terribly fast], I don't feel that Kirby would still have amazing KO power without uthrow - in fact, that's how I die most of the time.
     
  10. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Falco is a mismatch for Kirby. Falco has fast attacks and can keep Kirby off him with his reflector and lasers. He can also gimp his upb for days. Falco's weight might also be helping you DI out of his stuff.
     
  11. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Kirby ducks Falco's reflector [and lasers] and dtilt is a punish on reflector -> whatever basically, and the fallspeed actually makes me fall into some stuff (I think he got me with uair -> hammer cuz I DI'd badly once). But anyone can SDI Kirby's fair (except I guess the super large characters might struggle). If Falco's reflector could actually hit a ducking Kirby, I'd see your point, but even rapid jabs are dangerous because SDI and fair or bair can punish it as well.

    Darx is also relatively hard to gimp - I usually can get him if I can Darx to up+B (probably about 50% of the time that I force the up+B, I can get the gimp - maybe a bit less, but it seems like I get it a lot...), but Kirby can recover high with good DI, and if he reads even one dair, bair, or fair (Falco's best gimping tools, as bair/fair can make them come back with fewer jumps to make the dair easier) and airdodges it, he can always get back onstage. While Falco can definitely gimp Kirby, it takes some strong reads, and Kirby still probably should be able to get back more often than not, even with DI forcing him to recover low. So I can gimp up+B, but I have to get him to where Kirby has to up+B, and that's tricky.

    I think Kirby Falco is probably about even. To be honest, I think if I faced Darx in one of our tournaments, I'd probably go Sheik instead of Falco [or at least try]. because Sheik is also very good, but all her stuff works properly vs Kirby [needles can be ducked too, but SH needles to lay traps and Kirby can't duck that].
     
  12. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Still sounds like Kirby is fine to me. Reading your opponent is part of the game, and Kirby has all the necessary tools to excel in the areas he was designed for. If he is ducking your attacks or avoiding gimps, he is outplaying you. If he is stomping you for your mistakes, then you have been outplayed. He is not lacking in any department. In fact, he has far more KO options than Minus MK, who is even lighter than he is. I fail to see any issues, because anything you've listed can be debated, and depends entirely on player skill and matchup.
     
  13. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    He's not arguing that kirby isn't fine. He's just saying don't nerf u throw cuz he needs it. He doesn't need it that much either. U throw would just be useless if it didn't kill.
     
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  14. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, the MU feels like that if either of us gets a gimp, we outplayed the opponent, whereas if we get back onstage, that's how the MU should work (kind of like Fox gimping Puff in Melee usually looks like the Fox outplayed the Puff). I don't feel I particularly outplayed Darx when I get onstage, I just feel like I didn't walk into something really dumb, since neither character seems to be able to effectively cover enough of the opponent's recovery options to make gimping a threat if one is not being stupidly obvious.

    Minus MK has obscenely early options (uthrow and shuttle loop offstage), and running dsmash is more reliable than most of Kirby's other stuff in my opinion [except uthrow]. Also, MK is generally better in neutral, with ftilt, nado, drill rush, glide, fair, uair, and dair. Kirby has a projectile, but Kirby doesn't quite have the mobility or range MK has.

    To be honest, I don't feel like fighting about Kirby vs MK though.

    Exactly this. I'm saying that nerfing uthrow would make an issue, not that there is one now.
     
  15. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    If we are talking about MK, Kirby does kill much better than Mk does. A majority of his stuff doesn't hit hard.
     
  16. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    The only thing I'm debating here that Newb isn't clear on is that Kirby doesn't need more KO power. You can keep pointing to uthrow until your fingers are sore, but I see no issue on him anywhere. He plays fine, he feels fine, and he KOs fine. He isn't a character that needs to depend on raw power to get kills because he has a fairly strong gimping game.
     
  17. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    What about Peach's down angled fsmash(tennis racket)? It has less range, does less damage, and has less knockback than her golf club. What's the point of kt exactly?
     
  18. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    The general idea is that it's got a much lower angle than peach's other forward smash options as well as a powerful sweetspot which should make it kill at lower percents off the side compared to her other smashes. That might not actually be the case at this point, but in theory that's how it should work.
     
  19. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    Where's the sweetspot?
     

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