Experiment: Is Sonic's D-Air Spike Overpowered? (YES)

[NEWB]

Jiggs Uair gimps easily. So does samus dair, pits arrows, zelda dtilt distant hitbox plus dair, Mario footstool, wario dair plus double jump and upb, fox shine, Kirby/D3 inhale, and wario bite. All of these can abused. Did I forget to mention edgehogging? I am more inclined to say deal within then recognize that it is a huge problem. Does sonic dair work too well with bair? Maybe but it's no harder to setup with any of these than to do that.

Let's add luigi fireballs and pikachu thunder jolt and most of all, double thunder bolt. And these attacks need no setup other than hitting you offstage in any number of ways. IC blocks also kill any character that has an upb with startup.

 

[Bent 00]

Jiggs Uair gimps easily. So does samus dair, pits arrows, zelda dtilt distant hitbox plus dair, Mario footstool, wario dair plus double jump and upb, fox shine, Kirby/D3 inhale, and wario bite. All of these can abused.

NEWB. Does any ONE of those moves you listed guarantee a KO if landed offstage, at ledge-level, on all characters at 0% damage?

IIRC, none of those moves have the ridiculous amount of hitstun that Sonic's D-Air has. They also require more skill to use.

I really don't understand how anyone can defend such a fast, safe, easy-to-use move having this much hitstun and OHKO potential.

Have you played a good Sonic main lately?

 

[Thor]

Jiggs Uair gimps easily. So does samus dair, pits arrows, zelda dtilt distant hitbox plus dair, Mario footstool, wario dair plus double jump and upb, fox shine, Kirby/D3 inhale, and wario bite. All of these can abused. Did I forget to mention edgehogging? I am more inclined to say deal within then recognize that it is a huge problem. Does sonic dair work too well with bair? Maybe but it's no harder to setup with any of these than to do that.

Let's add luigi fireballs and pikachu thunder jolt and most of all, double thunder bolt. And these attacks need no setup other than hitting you offstage in any number of ways. IC blocks also kill any character that has an upb with startup.

Falco can recover easily from all of those. ALL OF THEM. According to Bent, he can't recover from a dair at zero percent at/below FD stage level from Sonic. That's dumb.

Kirby/D3 and Wario have to SD for those to work - they're suicide moves, which is why they are fair. And I KNOW you can mash out of the Kirby/D3-cide - don't know about Wairo but I don't think it really matters, since it's for suiciding.

Edgehogging is how you play the game - you actually have to hit them out multiple times (After they've already tried coming back) [or they have to be really, REALLY bad] to get an edgehog gimp.

Pretty sure that only works for desynced ICs block, and only if the player isn't that good or is a PK kid/Wolf, AND is recovering almost directly under the stage lip, but not actually under the stage itself and riding the wall back out to the ledge - it doesn't gimp Fox [side+b -> immediate Fire Fox to shine to move a bit, Fire Fox] or Falco (unless Falco has zero jumps AND used up his side+b walljump), doesn't gimp Wolf if it's not desynced [and might not anyway, not sure], would have to check about Ness/Lucas though [Ness probably, Lucas I think it can clank his PKT so probably]. Every other recovery can deal with it I believe.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Bent,I think we Need to see more sonics exploit this if it's a serious problem. Nerfing things this early could destroy a tool that could has potential to some interesting things in sonics meta. Instead, I think we should put most of our time to tweaks and clean ups as some characters feel really messy in their design.

 

[NEWB]

Edgehogging is not difficult. Many minus recoveries still can be just edge hogged. You just may bot have noticed because most people here don't like doing that. When falco is low enough, he won't recover because you can edgehog his recovery if he came from low enough, which does happen.

On some stages, you can spit characters against the stage to stage spike. Wario's is legit. As I said, dair true combos with his upb, which will either put you off the blastline, stage spike you, or throw you beneath the stage in many cases.

Bent, your problem is that that situation of being at zero percent offstage is an unrealistic situation. You will likely be at around 30 percent when you are gimped, which is the magic number for gimping.

 

[Bent 00]

Bent,I think we Need to see more sonics exploit this if it's a serious problem.

Sonic is one of the least-played characters as-is. Most of our community's active players don't use him, and aren't going to start just to prove a point. We shouldn't ignore a broken move on any character because not enough people play as him/her/it.

Nerfing things this early could destroy a tool that could has potential to some interesting things in sonics meta. Instead, I think we should put most of our time to tweaks and clean ups as some characters feel really messy in their design.

What would be so bad about reducing the hitstun on Sonic's D-Air to a reasonable level? I'm not saying that the move needs any drastic changes, just that the hitstun needs to be Nerfed. It should still spike; it just shouldn't kill so much earlier than other characters' Spikes.

I'm still waiting on someone to show me something more broken than Sonic's D-Air. It's the biggest problem move that I know of right now.

 

[Thor]

Edgehogging is not difficult. Many minus recoveries still can be just edge hogged. You just may bot have noticed because most people here don't like doing that. When falco is low enough, he won't recover because you can edgehog his recovery if he came from low enough, which does happen.

On some stages, you can spit characters against the stage to stage spike. Wario's is legit. As I said, dair true combos with his upb, which will either put you off the blastline, stage spike you, or throw you beneath the stage in many cases.

Bent, your problem is that that situation of being at zero percent offstage is an unrealistic situation. You will likely be at around 30 percent when you are gimped, which is the magic number for gimping.

Those Falcos need to learn to angle Fire Bird at the 22.5 diagonal more up than left/right. Also no one in their right mind would be that low unless they've been meteored multiple times or made a bad tech error that just about never happens [they'd need like two aerials buffered back to back for that] - Sonic not only gets you that low with one meteor, he also removes the chance for that character to recover at all because it apparently can't be meteor-cancelled until it's too late. And edgehogging only works if your recovery is insufficient to land you onstage - Sonic dair works even if you could make it back, unlike EVERY other meteor in the game [at least at 0-40% I believe - the range might be bigger or a bit smaller].

Stage spiking? Lrn 2 tech.

30% isn't the magic number for dair off the bottom - Pikachu's doesn't work until at least 80%, Falco's sweetspot doesn't work well until at least 70% unless you get two, Mario's doesn't KO until 60%, Falcon's doesn't do it until 50% or so, and I think later, and Bent's already told us about 'Dorf's meteors. AND all of these estimates are generous - I've meteor-cancelled Pikachu Thunder above 130% [FOOTAGE: ]. While this wouldn't work with most characters not named Falco, it means Thunder doesn't KO at reasonably high percentages for most recoveries.

Bent,I think we Need to see more sonics exploit this if it's a serious problem. Nerfing things this early could destroy a tool that could has potential to some interesting things in sonics meta. Instead, I think we should put most of our time to tweaks and clean ups as some characters feel really messy in their design.

Giving someone what is functionally the only spike in the game where the game is supposed to have only meteor smashes IS messy design [for reference, Marth dair at 0% on Fox in Melee [a spike] cannot be survived if Fox has no DJ - I have done that in teams]. Sonic's dair should be able to be meteor cancelled like every other meteor dair - I would assume they either need to adjust the angle or adjust the hitstun/meteor cancel window.

As Bent 00 said, it's the biggest problem right now, at least in terms of looking at moves that are broken in a bad way, not in a good way [like Falcon Punch or Ganondorf side+B].

 

[Tybis]

Don't really wanna take sides, but an observation;
If Sonic's Dair is so good, then why aren't we seeing more good Sonic players? (Or higher-placing Sonics in our small community?)

 

[NEWB]

Nothing would be so bad about reducing the hitstun a small amount, enough so that the move doesn't kill on its own I suppose. Otherwise, I still say it's fine.

Replays would also be appreciated.

Also, I haven't seen one player that consistently stage techs or even regular techs. Techs are missed all the time by the most skilled players in even melee, so that really doesn't hold.

 

[Bent 00]

Don't really wanna take sides, but an observation;
If Sonic's Dair is so good, then why aren't we seeing more good Sonic players? (Or higher-placing Sonics in our small community?)

I get the feeling that Sonic isn't popular because he isn't as fun to play as compared to other characters. Personally, I don't like him because running around and being annoying aren't my style; I prefer a more direct approach.

There's also the fact that speedy, high-precision characters get thrown way off by even a little lag, making them less fit for Online play.

 

[Darxmarx]

Ya know, I would totally main Sonic if I didn't love Kirby so much.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Also, I haven't seen one player that consistently stage techs or even regular techs. Techs are missed all the time by the most skilled players in even melee, so that really doesn't hold.

And we play our mates online too, which is another factor as well.

Giving someone what is functionally the only spike in the game where the game is supposed to have only meteor smashes IS messy design [for reference, Marth dair at 0% on Fox in Melee [a spike] cannot be survived if Fox has no DJ - I have done that in teams]. Sonic's dair should be able to be meteor cancelled like every other meteor dair - I would assume they either need to adjust the angle or adjust the hitstun/meteor cancel window.

As Bent 00 said, it's the biggest problem right now, at least in terms of looking at moves that are broken in a bad way, not in a good way [like Falcon Punch or Ganondorf side+B].

No, that's not messy design, it's uniqueness. Messy design is isn't crisp, smooth, or clean. It doesn't FEEL, ACT, or properly FUNCTION well. Vbrawl D3 had a really messy design because he was too extreme in his attributes. vbrawl MK has a messy design because he didn't have a proper weakness. Those are messy designs. Tweaks are key here because you're fixing a "splurge" on a character canvas (since making characters can be argued as a form of art). Examples of good, clean design are vbrawl diddly kong, marth, wario, melee marth, pikachu, fox, falco, shiek, etc... I could go on but I think I made my point (if I made any point to begin with, felt like I just went on and n and on
EDIT: characters that can only be played in one playstyle w/o variation is messy design as well.

 

[Thor]

Don't really wanna take sides, but an observation;
If Sonic's Dair is so good, then why aren't we seeing more good Sonic players? (Or higher-placing Sonics in our small community?)

Because Sonic is hard to play, and we also don't exactly have a plethora of people play the game. As I've said before, I have very little interest in playing Sonic, and neither do others.

That's like saying "If Falco is so good, then why aren't we seeing more good Falco players?" There's me [sort of], owo, and you can count Gold_TSG [but I think his Falco is good because his fundamentals are good, not because he's actually good with Falco, if that makes sense - though his Falco is far from shabby or anything]. But are people trying to nerf Reflector and figure out how else to nerf Falco? Yes. Why? Because people think it's broken as is, even though there are not a plethora of good Falcos.

Nothing would be so bad about reducing the hitstun a small amount, enough so that the move doesn't kill on its own I suppose. Otherwise, I still say it's fine.

Replays would also be appreciated.

Also, I haven't seen one player that consistently stage techs or even regular techs. Techs are missed all the time by the most skilled players in even melee, so that really doesn't hold.

I would love to see RPs on Bent's test data, but whatever.

I consistently regular tech offline, and you can watch countless videos of PPMD, M2K, Armada, Mango, or Hbox, and find rather few missed techs on their end - teching, especially just from tumble, is easy [online it's tricky, I'll give you that].

I will now link you to a "YOU MUST RECOVER!" video that shows techs - and also if you've ever seen Ken vs PC Chris 3 (Arguably the best game of Melee ever recorded), you will see at 3:38 that Ken amazingly techs the platform off a uair - he somehow SDIs into the platform and techs it, which is obscenely skilled.

Players DO miss techs sometimes [not frequently if they practice, as I've said], but go watch Axe fight Armada - he gets at least like 3 techs where he CCs, SDIs down, and techs to survive - it's crazy. Also, I know Doq and I almost never fail to tech Falcon hug - it takes some quick reaction time but if you KNOW they're going for the stage spike like with Wario, it's really just about timing, because you can see it coming.

Links: [there is at two in the first match alone, and more throughout I think - now if only he'd won...]

[especially watch the bit less than a minute in with Puff and Link, and the part at about 5:20 - so many techs in relatively short succession]

ALSO, just noticed this from Sneak:

And we play our mates online too, which is another factor as well.

No, that's not messy design, it's uniqueness. Messy design is isn't crisp, smooth, or clean. It doesn't FEEL, ACT, or properly FUNCTION well. Vbrawl D3 had a really messy design because he was too extreme in his attributes. vbrawl MK has a messy design because he didn't have a proper weakness. Those are messy designs. Tweaks are key here because you're fixing a "splurge" on a character canvas (since making characters can be argued as a form of art). Examples of good, clean design are vbrawl diddly kong, marth, wario, melee marth, pikachu, fox, falco, shiek, etc...

No it's messy design, and bad design at that - if anyone "deserves" a spike, it's Falco, both as homage to Melee and because his combo game relies quite a bit on dair which can be cancelled out of, breaking his combos [nair can be SDI'd too much], but that would break [utterly and completely] Falco as a character in my opinion because double dair would gimp then pretty much everyone [currently need at least 3 from 0% even on Falcon from what I've seen/done, and those all must be sweetspotted]. And it's been said by Pin Clock that everything is supposed to be rather intuitive, which is why the turnips on Peach are colored - but Sonic has ZERO reason to have a spike [he doesn't even have one in vBrawl at last check], and it DOESN'T function well because that's not how Sonic rolls (hah hah I'm punny). If anyone got a spike, it would be Dorf, because his overwhelming powers break meteor cancel rules here, or else Marth's dair [Melee esque], or MAYBE Pikachu dair to make it more rewarding compared to Thunder, but that's it.

And Sonic dair DOESN'T ACT properly, because it's a meteor smash disguised as a spike. vBrawl D3 was fine if the dthrow wasn't dumb, and vBrawl MK had no weaknesses because hitstun coding error + best airdodge to abuse it.

I do just want a tweak - let it be meteor-cancellable properly, based on the meteor cancel window, not some weird spike properties it has.

 

[Glyph]

Seriously, if this is BROKEN broken, you'll be able to pick up Sonic and win games with him. If not, then guess Sonic just has a really good dair. Too many nerfs already getting thrown around, if you want this pushed through them please PROVE it needs to be nerfed. As is, 'its really good and you can't survive it' doesn't cut it for me at least.

 

[Thor]

Seriously, if this is BROKEN broken, you'll be able to pick up Sonic and win games with him. If not, then guess Sonic just has a really good dair. Too many nerfs already getting thrown around, if you want this pushed through them please PROVE it needs to be nerfed. As is, 'its really good and you can't survive it' doesn't cut it for me at least.

I'm really really pissed off at your sucky line of reasoning right now but I'm not going to do any mudslinging, just respond to this with a few similar examples. If one can't do something, it's not broken? Have you heard of Ice Climbers tripless back throw infinites in vBrawl??? Can you do them? No? Mkay, they're obviously not broken then, or you'd win games with them! Can you beat Trela with Meta Knight? No? Obviously not broken!

...Oh wait. [And funny enough, each still has 50-50 or better answers, but I've read your opinions on those characters elsewhere - can't run and hide from those posts now...]

I am not a Sonic player. That doesn't mean it's not broken. Just like how I can tell MAX ROB [and his beta multilaser] was broken, even though I didn't play as him. Open your eyes Glyph.

 

[Bent 00]

I would love to see RPs on Bent's test data, but whatever.

Can't save Replays in Training Mode, unfortunately. :/ However, I outlined my testing method in detail, so you can repeat the experiment if you need to see the results for yourself.

I did save some Replays of my matches against BC's Sonic... but I was playing my usual characters with easy-to-gimp recoveries, so I'm sure that would be the defense raised if I bothered posting them.

Seriously, if this is BROKEN broken, you'll be able to pick up Sonic and win games with him. If not, then guess Sonic just has a really good dair. Too many nerfs already getting thrown around, if you want this pushed through them please PROVE it needs to be nerfed. As is, 'its really good and you can't survive it' doesn't cut it for me at least.

Ugh, the thought of having to learn Sonic is giving me a headache. I don't like the character or his playstyle, and I already play NINE characters regularly. If I had to pick a tenth main, it would be Sheik, Wario, or Zero Suit Samus.

I may try playing Sonic in a few local matches, but online? NOPE

 

[Baby_Sneak]

.
ALSO, just noticed this from Sneak:



No it's messy design, and bad design at that - if anyone "deserves" a spike, it's Falco, both as homage to Melee and because his combo game relies quite a bit on dair which can be cancelled out of, breaking his combos [nair can be SDI'd too much], but that would break [utterly and completely] Falco as a character in my opinion because double dair would gimp then pretty much everyone [currently need at least 3 from 0% even on Falcon from what I've seen/done, and those all must be sweetspotted]. And it's been said by Pin Clock that everything is supposed to be rather intuitive, which is why the turnips on Peach are colored - but Sonic has ZERO reason to have a spike [he doesn't even have one in vBrawl at last check], and it DOESN'T function well because that's not how Sonic rolls (hah hah I'm punny). If anyone got a spike, it would be Dorf, because his overwhelming powers break meteor cancel rules here, or else Marth's dair [Melee esque], or MAYBE Pikachu dair to make it more rewarding compared to Thunder, but that's it.

And Sonic dair DOESN'T ACT properly, because it's a meteor smash disguised as a spike. vBrawl D3 was fine if the dthrow wasn't dumb, and vBrawl MK had no weaknesses because hitstun coding error + best airdodge to abuse it.

I do just want a tweak - let it be meteor-cancellable properly, based on the meteor cancel window, not some weird spike properties it has.

Nobody deserves a spike, especially if it's a homage to a previous game because that's nota good reason t give anybody really anything. Why is it so bad that sonic has a spike? Why can't he keep it? If it's truely broken, then add a startup animation for it, no reason to kill a property in a move like that.
EDIT: D3 still would have a slightly messy design if the Dthrow was killed, because he would be unable to start a rushdown game. Ganon having the spike would need to be at his torso, or else it would be a bit too powered. Vbrawl MK also had the best recovery by far, best neutral game, hard to hit, lived long in spite of his weight, kills easily, and had a broken ledge game.

 

[Glyph]

I'm really really pissed off at your sucky line of reasoning right now but I'm not going to do any mudslinging, just respond to this with a few similar examples. If one can't do something, it's not broken? Have you heard of Ice Climbers tripless back throw infinites in vBrawl??? Can you do them? No? Mkay, they're obviously not broken then, or you'd win games with them! Can you beat Trela with Meta Knight? No? Obviously not broken!

Thor take a chill pill. I can't currently do ICs chain throws, but SOMEONE can. And I very easily could put in the time to learn it as well. There's nothing stopping me from doing so. You also go on to use a pro player to justify something being broken/not broken as well, which has absolutely zero bearing on this situation. We don't have a pro player here.

...Oh wait. [And funny enough, each still has 50-50 or better answers, but I've read your opinions on those characters elsewhere - can't run and hide from those posts now...]

Running from wha? Both those characters have people proving they're dumb all the time. We have zero people making Sonic scary, closest being Kien who freely admits his Sonic is one of his weaker characters.

I am not a Sonic player. That doesn't mean it's not broken. Just like how I can tell MAX ROB [and his beta multilaser] was broken, even though I didn't play as him. Open your eyes Glyph.

Then prove it. Its easy. All you have to do is play this video game. Stop getting mad, nut up, and CONVINCE people instead of being mad they don't agree with you instantly.

Or it could be really hard to pull off, and huh guess that would make Sonic not a problem.

 

[Thor]

Nobody deserves a spike, especially if it's a homage to a previous game because that's nota good reason t give anybody really anything. Why is it so bad that sonic has a spike? Why can't he keep it? If it's truely broken, then add a startup animation for it, no reason to kill a property in a move like that.
EDIT: D3 still would have a slightly messy design if the Dthrow was killed, because he would be unable to start a rushdown game. Ganon having the spike would need to be at his torso, or else it would be a bit too powered. Vbrawl MK also had the best recovery by far, best neutral game, hard to hit, lived long in spite of his weight, kills easily, and had a broken ledge game.

Fox is badly designed then, because he can wavedash just as homage to Melee.

Sonic shouldn't have a spike because Brawl- isn't supposed to have spikes - it's inconsistent with the design philosophy.

I wouldn't mind if in general stall-then-falls spiked [so TL dair, Sheik dair (though that can stay), Sonic dair, ICs dair (that can stay too), Warlock Kick and Falcon Kick could be lumped in, and Sonic dair]. But they don't, it's just Sonic's, which is bizarre and runs counter to Minus having good recoveries when someone can negate that entirely because of a single move that breaks the rules.

Thor take a chill pill. I can't currently do ICs chain throws, but SOMEONE can. And I very easily could put in the time to learn it as well. There's nothing stopping me from doing so. You also go on to use a pro player to justify something being broken/not broken as well, which has absolutely zero bearing on this situation. We don't have a pro player here.

Running from wha? Both those characters have people proving they're dumb all the time. We have zero people making Sonic scary, closest being Kien who freely admits his Sonic is one of his weaker characters.

Then prove it. Its easy. All you have to do is play this video game. Stop getting mad, nut up, and CONVINCE people instead of being mad they don't agree with you instantly.

Or it could be really hard to pull off, and huh guess that would make Sonic not a problem.

Those characters aren't even dumb, but that's a discussion for another time. But you're saying it's EASY - picking up MK is NOT easy, it requires time, effort, and dedication to the game, as does playing ICs because of how many people play around them - I can say for sure if you put the CGs back in Minus for ICs, it would hardly be a problem because of how easily pretty much every character can work around them. Sonic is in the same basket - just because it's dumb doesn't mean it's easy to do even at a high level - it's still dumb.

And I'll quote you right here because it fits exactly with my response: "We don't have a pro player here."

And even when something IS shown to be really easy, people are like "Still not broken", and as I said, I have no Wi-Fi, so it's not like I could prove a damn thing anyway.

Hard to believe people would defend something as broken as Sonic dair but not something as balanced as a Warlock Punch - and literally NO ONE has even the slightest response to my analysis of that situation [probably because there was no defense for that travesty done to Ganondorf.]

 

[Glyph]

Those characters aren't even dumb

Aaaaaaand I'm out

 

[NEWB]

Fox wasn't designed the way he was to give homage to melee. He was designed to have a reimagined melee moveset because that is ideal for fox and there isn't anything else you could really do to this guy. The only thing they want characters to pay homage to is their past respective games if they can make it work in this game.

 

[Thor]

Aaaaaaand I'm out

ICs lose to at least 4 characters and go even with like 6 others. And they clearly weren't broken in beta testing, showing that just because a group can't do something doesn't mean it's not dumb. MK goes even with Pikachu and is eminently beatable by the other top tiers - yeah it's tough but that's life - unless of course we need more even MUs for a character not to be dumb - if that's true, ROB needs some nerfing to be fair in the Minus sense since he beats up way too many characters too well, only losing arguably to Falco [probably even because ROB just has to play his pressure game] and being even with only like Sheik, D3, and 'Cario [maybe], and arguably a very skilled Fox/Wolf [and those are even AT BEST].

Brawl- ROB = vBrawl MK. Pretty much zero losing MUs and craps on most of the cast - always has great, fast, low-lag options, strong frame traps, among the longest, safest recoveries, and a pair of strong, useful projectiles [or 3 I guess]. And a great approach option that more or less has to be shut down before it starts.

 

[Glyph]

Looooooooooooooooooool, ok Thor.

 

[Thor]

Looooooooooooooooooool, ok Thor.

@Gold_TSG @owo @Kienamaru @Bent 00 @anyone else too I guess

Long, safe recovery, fast, repeatable attacks, powerful specials that can KO, projectiles [MK didn't get those], great tilts, fast, rather safe dsmash, strong fsmash, KO move(s) in air, strong combo game, heavier than MK, good KO power, strong ledge game, no real bad MUs... what am I missing? Glyph clearly thinks they are very different, and that ROB here is inferior to MK there...

 

[Glyph]

You're missing competitive experience. If you really knew what a terror MK was you'd realize how foolish comparing anyone in minus to him.