Experiment: Is Sonic's D-Air Spike Overpowered? (YES)

Discussion in 'Sonic' started by Bent 00, Aug 29, 2014.

  1. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Hypothesis: Sonic's D-Air is a One Hit K.O. in most situations offstage.

    How I am testing this:

    Training Mode at 1/4 Speed
    Final Destination

    Stand Target at left edge.
    Target will always be at 0% damage whenever hit, unless otherwise noted.
    Make Sonic use Up-B. At (or near) the apex of Sonic's jump, mash C-Stick Down until D-Air triggers.
    For Experiment A (for "Air"), have Target intercept Sonic's D-Air by single-jumping into it.
    For Experiment E (for "Edge"), have Target intercept Sonic's D-Air by walking off the edge and falling into it.
    Result J (for "Jump"): Can Target survive the Spike by mashing Jump repeatedly?
    Result S (for "Special"): Can Target survive the Spike by mashing Up-B repeatedly?

    Notes:
    1.) A Result of just "No" means that the Target could not do anything (besides D.I.) before getting K.O.ed., or the move is cut short by the blast zone.
    2.) A Target who can't survive Sonic's D-Air offstage beside the ledge won't be able to survive if they are hit by it while holding onto the ledge, either.

    Bowser
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Captain Falcon
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Diddy Kong
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Donkey Kong
    AJ: Yes (0-15% only)
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Falco
    AJ: Yes
    AS: Yes
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Fox
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Ganondorf
    AJ: Yes (0-3% only)
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Ice Climbers
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Ike
    AJ: No
    AS: No
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    King Dedede
    AJ: Yes
    AS: Yes
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Kirby
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Link
    AJ: Yes (0-9% only)
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Lucas
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Luigi
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Mario
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Marth
    AJ: Yes (0-5% only)
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Meta Knight
    AJ: Yes
    AS: Yes
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Mr. Game & Watch
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Ness
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Olimar
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Peach
    AJ: No (cannot reach ledge)
    AS: No
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Pit
    AJ: Yes
    AS: Yes
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    R.O.B.
    AJ: Yes
    AS: Yes
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Roy
    AJ: Yes (0-4% only)
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Samus
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Sheik
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Snake
    AJ: Yes (0-1% only)
    AS: No
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Sonic
    AJ: Yes
    AS: Yes
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Toon Link
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Wario
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Wolf
    AJ: No
    AS: No
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Yoshi
    AJ: Yes
    AS: Yes (both Double Jumps required)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Zelda
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Zero Suit Samus
    AJ: Yes
    AS: No
    EJ: No
    ES: No

    Observations:
    - Sonic's D-Air Spike OHKOs everyone I've tested it on at edge-level or below on FD. No one can survive it, even if they have 0% damage.
    - Other Spiking moves are much easier to escape from. Sonic's D-Air inflicts a LOT of hitstun, several times more than other Spikes.
    - At Sonic's single-jump height, he can survive a Wizard's Foot Spike with as much as 100% damage. If Ganondorf gets Sonic D-Air Spiked at 'Dorf's single-jump height, he will not survive if he has more than 3% damage.
    - A Sonic with up to 47% damage can survive getting Wizkick Spiked at ledge level (or while he's holding the ledge) on FD. He can Spring right out of the hitstun. On the other hand, a Ganondorf at 0% damage cannot survive a ledge-level Sonic D-Air in any normal situation.

    Conclusion:
    Sonic's D-Air is VERY overpowered. At edge-level or below, it is a OHKO no matter how much damage the Target has, yet it has none of the drawbacks of such a deadly move. It's actually very easy to hit with, and if you miss somehow, you still have a second shot at a Spike via Sonic's Spring. It doesn't have a crazy amount of hitstun like D-Air does, but it works nearly as well.

    Please Nerf Sonic's D-Air to a level comparable to the other Spikes in the game. It should not be a guaranteed KO anywhere NEAR low percents, considering how easy it is to use and how it has a Backup Spike.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2014
  2. Darxmarx

    Darxmarx The Learning Star Warrior

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    Just kidding. I'm kinda interested in the results that you get here, mainly because I basically know nothing about Sonic's dair.
     
  3. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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  4. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Test Falco. Best vertical recovery in game, curious about it.
     
  5. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Update: Tested against everyone except the Pokemon characters.

    No one can survive getting hit by Sonic's D-Air at edge-level or below on FD, even at 0% damage.

    Sonic's D-Air has way too much hitstun.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2014
  6. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Practice facing sonic more bent. It isn't as easy to land you think. You also play characters that are more easily prone to being spiked. Just because it can OHKO everyone doesn't mean it will hit every character with as much ease. This move has been around for an obscenely long time without edits to its power. Except for it gaining a cancel into sideb during landlag.

    At the same time, his moveset has changed and he has been buffed however it isn't possible to simply weaken the move either. It doesn't matter if it's an OHKO because using spring afterwards will KO the foe anyway, even if they don't footstool first. Making the move do anything else wouldn't be a good idea either.

    The only conceivable way I would see to balance the move, should that be necessary, is to make it only cancelable on hit. That way it requires commitment.
     
  7. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Okay, to be fair, I can't say for sure if it's easy or difficult to land. I don't know sonics combos nor have I played a good sonic. I have seen kien's sonic a few times though, so I know some of his combos.
     
  8. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Yes it is. What are you supposed to do when you inevitably get knocked offstage, and Sonic jumps after you? Once he's above you offstage, you're screwed unless you've got a great Special Recovery; you can airdodge Sonic's D-Air, but then you're too low to recover or you've got a Spring falling your way.

    Ike and Peach are especially vulnerable to getting OHKOed by D-Air.

    You know why Sonic hasn't been Nerfed much? The devs didn't know that he needed to be, because hardly anyone plays as him. Little Feedback has been posted about him because he's one of the least-played characters.

    [​IMG]
    We reduce the hitstun. There is no good reason Sonic's D-Air should have SO. MUCH. HITSTUN.

    It is not hard at all to get Sonic's opponent offstage. B-Throw gets the job done well. This OHKO is easy to set up in comparison to the other two.

    Also, a Spring spike doesn't have as much hitstun as Sonic's D-Air, so it may be survivable at low percents (I haven't tested it much).

    Returning Gale Boomerang into Quick Mortal Draw got Nerfed. Warlock Punch lost its Cancel. Why? Because you shouldn't be able to throw out OHKOs that easily. Sonic's D-Air Spike is a better OHKO move than either of those two, because at least you can see them coming and dodge to safety. No matter how little damage you have, a good Sonic is going to Spike you when you wind up underneath him offstage.

    Even without an on-hit cancel, it would still be a cheap move that kills people at 0% at ledge-level or below offstage.

    Unless you're right beside a blast zone, the only moves that should be able to kill at 0 ******* percent are moves like Warlock Punch and Mortal Draw. You should be able to see OHKO moves coming from a mile away, and be well able to avoid them. A hard-to-avoid OHKO (much less an UNavoidable one) is the most cheap and broken thing there is.

    Anyone who gave me flak for wanting Warlock Punch to be useful offstage, yet defends this **** is a real hypocrite.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2014
  9. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Bent.... You can't seriously be this pissed off by this. Just calm down. It can't be healthy to be getting so hung up on things.

    Also, it occurs to me that no one has thanked you for the effort you've put into this whether or not you tested it effectively or not which I don't know. I mean, I sat on my ass all day. I would have done the othe half of the cast if you had have asked. Or. Ah be I shoulda offered first.

    I am also not aware how hitstun is calculated. I see hitstun modifiers in the code set, so I assumed that hitstun isn't easily changed for one move. That would tone down the move but I think the idea of the attack is that sonic and the opponent would land on the stage at the same time to trigger a tech chase. Assuming that sonic hit the foe and they both fell onto the stage.
     
  10. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    "3 ways to irritate me"

    Ignore the problem
    Do not bother to fact-check
    Be a hypocrite


    "In this topic"

    That hedgehog's got a broken move
    With hitstun out the @$$,
    It's obvious it needs a Nerf,
    But all I get is Sass

    Hours I spent, to prove my point:
    "That hitstun has to go!"
    This move is fast and safe, so
    It should NOT one-hit-K.O.

    Stop ignoring the problem;
    Don't just say "It's fine",
    You can't deny the facts;
    This move has crossed the line
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2014
  11. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    I thought I was the only poet here. Hm. You really didn't have to do all the testing man. No one has said the move was fine, I've just stated that there are worse things. You're still speaking as if you have reason to be recovering while at 0%.
     
  12. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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  13. Doqtor Kirby

    Doqtor Kirby Resident Design Nitpicker Minus Backroom

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    Bent if you want results you should do it against a human. Join me in wifi later and you can test with me.
     
  14. Tybis

    Tybis Resident Minusaur Minus Backroom

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    You know these guys are serious when they start tossin lines and droppin beats.
     
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  15. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    Clearly Brawl Minus' next changes will be based on the best poetry posted.
     
  16. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2016
  17. Baby_Sneak

    Baby_Sneak Active Member

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    if we're going to nerf sonic's Dair, then we should add a side b canceled on some combo starters or some kind of buff, cuz sonic is lacking in potent areas
     
  18. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Or they need to better guarantee dair spring will KO, if the move by itself will be weakened.
     
  19. Baby_Sneak

    Baby_Sneak Active Member

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    idk about that. I would like to see some creative designs happened. besides, sonic needs more than that.
     
  20. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Not a whole lot more. The only thing he lacks is ko power. He excels in almost every other area.

    Also, his jabs STILL need to be fixed. You can DI up and out of the last hit. I've even shielded in the middle of the combo at times. I also think zamus needs her jabs to link better.
     
  21. Baby_Sneak

    Baby_Sneak Active Member

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    right, i just want out of the box ideas for sonic, and minus in general
     
  22. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    The "You can DI up and out of the last hit" is called SDI and every character's jab has that problem. If you were trying to crouch while shielding in the middle of the combos, you may have managed to CC -> shield the jab - I know that's a thing in Brawl, but I don't know about in Brawl-.

    That makes the problem worse, we're trying to stop Sonic from zero-death gimping people - no one else can do it well besides maybe Ganondorf, who's supposed to do stuff like that, but gets heavily combo'd and is very slow as a result, and arguably Falco with his dair, which still takes like 3 well-placed dairs to do on characters that are easier to gimp. Sonic getting easy zero-deaths is what people here don't want, which is why Bent tested Sonic's dair.
     
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  23. Glyph

    Glyph Moderator

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    If you want sonic's dair nerfed, pick him up and exploit this dair. If it's too hard to do, then that (to me) says its not broken.
     
  24. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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  25. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Shouldn't be necessary - there was NOTHING broken, ZERO POINT ZERO BROKEN THINGS about Warlock Punch cancel (The move is trash and was trash with it and will continue to be trash with it or without it - like Pichu in Melee, it's bad, usable but still just terrible - anyone wanna debate me on this I will **** you up because I didn't even use 'Dorf and the fact that devs were like "don't like it, it's balanced but we don't like it, nerf it" is a TERRIBLE model and also caused a vocal backlash, and then devs and others were like "But we're bad so we're removing it anyway deal with it" which was retarded on so many different levels) and it was nerfed anyway. The fact that people FEARED what it could do, which was literally NOTHING if you had any semblance of dodging, means the fact that we here KNOW what Sonic dair can do, when it's faster, safer, and harder to avoid [because low percent recovery and Sonic's juggling game, as well as bthrow where these have already been highlighted] than Warlock Punch [and its projectile] is MORE than good enough reason to nerf it.

    I'm also not suited to be a Sonic main. In fact I'm really not suited well to most of the cast I don't think - Falco, maybe Pikachu and MK cuz I like them, Sheik, Falcon, and Olimar, are about who I think I can actually use. I could play others at a decent level [Ness, Luigi, Mario, ROB, more] but it just doesn't feel natural or as good as playing the other characters.

    And if I wanted to pick someone up for that reason alone I'd have picked up Yoshi like a week ago.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2014
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