It will need testing once it becomes a normal spike again, since DI was previously impossible. We don't want it to still guarantee kills with footstools/springs without much effort.
If you can DI it, that actually would just be bad DI on the receiving end, no?
Glad to see this was fixed [Thanks Bent].
I know it's basically "Mission Accomplished" now in this topic, but I was curious what you would say, Thor.
You and a couple of my local friends are the only vocal advocates of Cancellable Warlock Punch I know of.
I really liked it the way I had it in my CWP tweak, but I moved over to the SFWP tweak once it became obvious that the majority of Minus players would not even give it a chance.
Had to go back and read what Glyph said... here's what he said...
Glyph said:
Ok, let me go down the list with each of your points.
1. This point boils down to 'it would be better if he had the cancel'. And you're 100% correct. But the cancel in its own self is bad game design. Smash abides by certain rules to make the game something people can understand. Weak moves come out fast but don't hit hard and vice versa. Of course there's exceptions, and some moves hit harder than others, but that statement as a general rule is pretty universal. Removing 100% of Ganon's endlag (which he deserves to have after using a move as powerful as Warlock Punch, even if its scaled back to the power levels you've given him) breaks the ground rules of Smash. Giving him a cancel there is like removing the endlag from Ike's Fsmash. Ike would be better, but not the best character, so why not do it? Because its dumb, if you get to use a move with such ridiculous KO potential then you need to have a cost.
2. This is not a real argument. No character in smash has signature moves. They might have a move you PERSONALLY feel best represents them, but that doesn't entitle said move to being any better. As for the offstage portion of this argument, there's a LOT of moves that are bad ideas to use offstage. If you use Link's Dair offstage, you're probably going to die. You don't look at that move and say 'but Mario's Dair is safe offstage, Link's needs buffed', you just don't use that move offstage. Because its a really bad idea. And will cost you stocks.
This counterpoint boils down to a big argument I've had in the BRoom where just because Character 1 has X move, that doesn't mean Character 2 is entitled to changes. Characters should be balanced first in their own right and then against the rest of the ENTIRE cast, not specific comparisons.
3. It is! But that doesn't excuse the complete removal of endlag. The only time having the cancel there would end up rewarding Ganon is when the opponent literally didn't know he had a cancel at all. Any other time people would learn 'oh wait, this is that one move in the game where it doesn't follow the same logic as the rest of the game so I need to be careful'. Which is not what we want to do.
4. Reducing the power goes against the whole idea of Minus Ganon in the first place. This is not a tech based character. This is not a combo based character. Ganon is all about nothing BUT power. Even if you reduced the power, you would have to reduce it to well below the knockback you see on Falcon Punch to justify having a cancel on the end. Which is not Ganon at all.
5. Its not a mix-up if it only works if your opponent doesn't know it exists. Then its just your opponent not knowing how the move works, which is really understandable when its the only move like it.
6. The fact that you're saying 'offstage Gandouken' at all should be setting off alarm bells. Even if it is easily dodged (and I believe you when you say it is), its still a MASSIVE buff to Ganon's edge game. Even if you miss, you force them to recover around the projectile. A Ganon who can see what way you're recovering from is a Ganon who's about to pick up a lot of free kills.
So let me touch on a few other things. No one in the BRoom is doing this out of spite against Ganon. Yes, it would be better, but better in a really bad way. All it does is reward Ganon for absolutely no reason beyond 'yeah Ganon gets to do that'. Were it a huge problem that he couldn't Punch more often, then we would certainly have taken more stock into the complaint. But its not. Ganon is MASSIVELY viable just off his sheer strength. Not only that, but you have to made a bad decision to even try and land Punch normally. And thats ok! No one will ever force you to press that B button, you as a player have to make that decision. 99% of the time, you're going to regret doing it, not because the move is bad but rather because you can make so much better use of that time by getting in there and just fighting normally. Any opponent with even a basic level of skill will know to just stay out of the way during the startup, and they certainly deserve a chance to punish if they can get to you afterwards.
Hope this cleared up things a bit more for you, none of this is because we hate Ganon, its because the cancel was a toxic mechanic that was used as a crutch to make a very powerful move much less risky. The power was always intentional, the safety not so, the safely was booted and the power remained.
First, NEW suggestion - make Warlock Punch taunt-cancellable only - Ganondorf can then whip out his sword if he screws up with it, but he will still be punishable at the end (but won't lose to another Warlock or Falcon Punch for example, and can time it to beat out an fsmash or something]. He'd still be disadvantaged, but it would make the move safer without being broken (since just wait for the sword to go away and smack him). I think this cancel would be awesome, Minusy, and it wouldn't be any action but only taunts. That's just a happy medium I came up with. (Airborne one would need something else...).
1. Brawl- doesn't abide by general smash rules (heck vBrawl MK didn't - dominance on-stage, dominance offstage, no lag on his most powerful attack [afterlag], other stuff) so I don't know why we'd bind this move to an arbitrary ruleset - as a better example [and Minusy one], Ness's grab has low endlag and low startup AND beats shields, but it can KO at 130% on nearly the entire cast - that's bad game design too, we should add endlag to it, right? Your Ike fsmash example is silly because Ike fsmash has low startup - Warlock Punch is the highest startup attack in the game (bar some recoveries, like Firebird MIGHT and PKT probably does], it can have no or low endlag just fine.
2. Falcon Punch is a signature move XD and it's been given amazing buffs that make it awesome (the taunt makes it usable) [his knee is close but it isn't Falcon Punch]. Heck it's the most iconic move in smash and it was the only thing even close to a real fighting move Captain Falcon did outside of smash - ask someone who barely plays video games and they probably will know that there is a thing called the Falcon Punch out there. Warlock Punch is just as signature for Ganondorf (or the Wiz Kick aka Megabus which also was sadly nerfed) but I won't really argue this further because I don't think buffing signatures moves is necessarily a great route either [BUFF MACH TORNADO PLEASE!!! IT'S HIS ULTIMATE SIGNATURE MOVE!!! was the route I'd have taken explaining that to Bent, but not "there are no signature moves."]
3. It would reward a Ganondorf who knows the opponent is aiming to avoid Gandouken and could punish more readily if he didn't have a cancel at all - and some characters are so fast he'll almost never get to use the Gandouken anyway (Sheik, ROB), so I think this could help him get away when he slightly misjudges a Gandouken and can get away quickly then or possibly counterattack - it would make people more wary of blindly rushing in, but it wouldn't actually stop people from punishing it if they know the timing - it's just a bit of leeway for Ganondorf and makes his Warlock Punch something that deserves slightly more respect.
4. No to power reduction, yes to lag [or taunt] cancel.
5. You can mixup with cancels or Gandoukens, so they have to be quick or else wait it out, providing the Gandouken some added safety (which against good player just comes out too slow to ever be useful against campers and only works as a mildly effective edgeguarding tool , so I think the mixup options would aid the Gandouken a lot, since they have to respect it ever so slightly more if they are halfway across the stage on FD).
6. No offstage Gandouken (PLEASE NO) but offstage WP is cool - some sort of aerial-only cancel or Bent's SFWP would be good enough for me, even if my taunt-cancel or the full cancel can't get back in.
7. Gandouken is an awesome projectile that's rarely ever safe except when the range is too low and WP is an awesome edgeguarding trick that I think shouldn't be told no because it's hard to land and there are better onstage options - if you want to use a ground Warlock Punch to punish my Firebird, it having no endlag means even if you miss you won't be punished, which I think is cool and Minusy.
Just because you shouldn't do it doesn't mean it's not awesome, and I think as Sneak as said, Minus is lacking some awesome stuff. This would be a small step in the right direction, AT LEAST the SFWP (even w/out flub hitboxes) and/or taunt-cancelling to project yourself from full-charged smashes (and eating half charges instead).
Players should hit him during the windup - if he fires his punch, he should be able to somehow protect himself.
And that move is still massively unsafe lol that's like calling his old utilt safe if they removed endlag - it's still massively punishable without endlag, and slightly more so with endlag.
So yeah, those are my thoughts on Glyph's thoughts.
