Experiment: Is Sonic's D-Air Spike Overpowered? (YES)

[Bent 00]

Hypothesis: Sonic's D-Air is a One Hit K.O. in most situations offstage.

How I am testing this:

Training Mode at 1/4 Speed
Final Destination

Stand Target at left edge.
Target will always be at 0% damage whenever hit, unless otherwise noted.
Make Sonic use Up-B. At (or near) the apex of Sonic's jump, mash C-Stick Down until D-Air triggers.
For Experiment A (for "Air"), have Target intercept Sonic's D-Air by single-jumping into it.
For Experiment E (for "Edge"), have Target intercept Sonic's D-Air by walking off the edge and falling into it.
Result J (for "Jump"): Can Target survive the Spike by mashing Jump repeatedly?
Result S (for "Special"): Can Target survive the Spike by mashing Up-B repeatedly?

Notes:
1.) A Result of just "No" means that the Target could not do anything (besides D.I.) before getting K.O.ed., or the move is cut short by the blast zone.
2.) A Target who can't survive Sonic's D-Air offstage beside the ledge won't be able to survive if they are hit by it while holding onto the ledge, either.

Spoiler: RESULTS

Bowser
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Captain Falcon
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Diddy Kong
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Donkey Kong
AJ: Yes (0-15% only)
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Falco
AJ: Yes
AS: Yes
EJ: No
ES: No

Fox
AJ: Yes
AS: No
EJ: No
ES: No

Ganondorf
AJ: Yes (0-3% only)
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Ice Climbers
AJ: Yes
AS: No
EJ: No
ES: No

Ike
AJ: No
AS: No
EJ: No
ES: No

King Dedede
AJ: Yes
AS: Yes
EJ: No
ES: No

Kirby
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Link
AJ: Yes (0-9% only)
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Lucas
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Luigi
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Mario
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Marth
AJ: Yes (0-5% only)
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Meta Knight
AJ: Yes
AS: Yes
EJ: No
ES: No

Mr. Game & Watch
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Ness
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Olimar
AJ: Yes
AS: No
EJ: No
ES: No

Peach
AJ: No (cannot reach ledge)
AS: No
EJ: No
ES: No

Pit
AJ: Yes
AS: Yes
EJ: No
ES: No

R.O.B.
AJ: Yes
AS: Yes
EJ: No
ES: No

Roy
AJ: Yes (0-4% only)
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Samus
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Sheik
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Snake
AJ: Yes (0-1% only)
AS: No
EJ: No
ES: No

Sonic
AJ: Yes
AS: Yes
EJ: No
ES: No

Toon Link
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Wario
AJ: Yes
AS: No
EJ: No
ES: No

Wolf
AJ: No
AS: No
EJ: No
ES: No

Yoshi
AJ: Yes
AS: Yes (both Double Jumps required)
EJ: No
ES: No

Zelda
AJ: Yes
AS: No (cannot reach ledge)
EJ: No
ES: No

Zero Suit Samus
AJ: Yes
AS: No
EJ: No
ES: No

Observations:
- Sonic's D-Air Spike OHKOs everyone I've tested it on at edge-level or below on FD. No one can survive it, even if they have 0% damage.
- Other Spiking moves are much easier to escape from. Sonic's D-Air inflicts a LOT of hitstun, several times more than other Spikes.
- At Sonic's single-jump height, he can survive a Wizard's Foot Spike with as much as 100% damage. If Ganondorf gets Sonic D-Air Spiked at 'Dorf's single-jump height, he will not survive if he has more than 3% damage.
- A Sonic with up to 47% damage can survive getting Wizkick Spiked at ledge level (or while he's holding the ledge) on FD. He can Spring right out of the hitstun. On the other hand, a Ganondorf at 0% damage cannot survive a ledge-level Sonic D-Air in any normal situation.

Conclusion:
Sonic's D-Air is VERY overpowered. At edge-level or below, it is a OHKO no matter how much damage the Target has, yet it has none of the drawbacks of such a deadly move. It's actually very easy to hit with, and if you miss somehow, you still have a second shot at a Spike via Sonic's Spring. It doesn't have a crazy amount of hitstun like D-Air does, but it works nearly as well.

Please Nerf Sonic's D-Air to a level comparable to the other Spikes in the game. It should not be a guaranteed KO anywhere NEAR low percents, considering how easy it is to use and how it has a Backup Spike.

 

[Darxmarx]

I didn't come here for science!
Just kidding. I'm kinda interested in the results that you get here, mainly because I basically know nothing about Sonic's dair.

 

[Bent 00]

Tested 14 characters. That's enough for me to conclude that Sonic's D-Air is definitely BROKEN.

 

[Thor]

Test Falco. Best vertical recovery in game, curious about it.

 

[Bent 00]

Update: Tested against everyone except the Pokemon characters.

No one can survive getting hit by Sonic's D-Air at edge-level or below on FD, even at 0% damage.

Sonic's D-Air has way too much hitstun.

 

[NEWB]

Practice facing sonic more bent. It isn't as easy to land you think. You also play characters that are more easily prone to being spiked. Just because it can OHKO everyone doesn't mean it will hit every character with as much ease. This move has been around for an obscenely long time without edits to its power. Except for it gaining a cancel into sideb during landlag.

At the same time, his moveset has changed and he has been buffed however it isn't possible to simply weaken the move either. It doesn't matter if it's an OHKO because using spring afterwards will KO the foe anyway, even if they don't footstool first. Making the move do anything else wouldn't be a good idea either.

The only conceivable way I would see to balance the move, should that be necessary, is to make it only cancelable on hit. That way it requires commitment.

 

[NEWB]

Okay, to be fair, I can't say for sure if it's easy or difficult to land. I don't know sonics combos nor have I played a good sonic. I have seen kien's sonic a few times though, so I know some of his combos.

 

[Bent 00]

It isn't as easy to land you think.

Yes it is. What are you supposed to do when you inevitably get knocked offstage, and Sonic jumps after you? Once he's above you offstage, you're screwed unless you've got a great Special Recovery; you can airdodge Sonic's D-Air, but then you're too low to recover or you've got a Spring falling your way.

Ike and Peach are especially vulnerable to getting OHKOed by D-Air.

This move has been around for an obscenely long time without edits to its power. Except for it gaining a cancel into sideb during landlag.

You know why Sonic hasn't been Nerfed much? The devs didn't know that he needed to be, because hardly anyone plays as him. Little Feedback has been posted about him because he's one of the least-played characters.

however it isn't possible to simply weaken the move either.

Spoiler: It's simple.

We reduce the hitstun. There is no good reason Sonic's D-Air should have SO. MUCH. HITSTUN.

It doesn't matter if it's an OHKO because using spring afterwards will KO the foe anyway, even if they don't footstool first. Making the move do anything else wouldn't be a good idea either.

It is not hard at all to get Sonic's opponent offstage. B-Throw gets the job done well. This OHKO is easy to set up in comparison to the other two.

Also, a Spring spike doesn't have as much hitstun as Sonic's D-Air, so it may be survivable at low percents (I haven't tested it much).

Returning Gale Boomerang into Quick Mortal Draw got Nerfed. Warlock Punch lost its Cancel. Why? Because you shouldn't be able to throw out OHKOs that easily. Sonic's D-Air Spike is a better OHKO move than either of those two, because at least you can see them coming and dodge to safety. No matter how little damage you have, a good Sonic is going to Spike you when you wind up underneath him offstage.

The only conceivable way I would see to balance the move, should that be necessary, is to make it only cancelable on hit. That way it requires commitment.

Even without an on-hit cancel, it would still be a cheap move that kills people at 0% at ledge-level or below offstage.

Unless you're right beside a blast zone, the only moves that should be able to kill at 0 ******* percent are moves like Warlock Punch and Mortal Draw. You should be able to see OHKO moves coming from a mile away, and be well able to avoid them. A hard-to-avoid OHKO (much less an UNavoidable one) is the most cheap and broken thing there is.

Anyone who gave me flak for wanting Warlock Punch to be useful offstage, yet defends this **** is a real hypocrite.

 

[NEWB]

Bent.... You can't seriously be this pissed off by this. Just calm down. It can't be healthy to be getting so hung up on things.

Also, it occurs to me that no one has thanked you for the effort you've put into this whether or not you tested it effectively or not which I don't know. I mean, I sat on my ass all day. I would have done the othe half of the cast if you had have asked. Or. Ah be I shoulda offered first.

I am also not aware how hitstun is calculated. I see hitstun modifiers in the code set, so I assumed that hitstun isn't easily changed for one move. That would tone down the move but I think the idea of the attack is that sonic and the opponent would land on the stage at the same time to trigger a tech chase. Assuming that sonic hit the foe and they both fell onto the stage.

 

[Bent 00]

"3 ways to irritate me"

Ignore the problem
Do not bother to fact-check
Be a hypocrite

"In this topic"

That hedgehog's got a broken move
With hitstun out the @$$,
It's obvious it needs a Nerf,
But all I get is Sass

Hours I spent, to prove my point:
"That hitstun has to go!"
This move is fast and safe, so
It should NOT one-hit-K.O.

Stop ignoring the problem;
Don't just say "It's fine",
You can't deny the facts;
This move has crossed the line

 

[Kien]

I thought I was the only poet here. Hm. You really didn't have to do all the testing man. No one has said the move was fine, I've just stated that there are worse things. You're still speaking as if you have reason to be recovering while at 0%.

 

[Bent 00]

What is worse than this? Sonic's D-Air is a pretty big problem. Have you or NEWB played any good Sonics lately?

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

Bent if you want results you should do it against a human. Join me in wifi later and you can test with me.

 

[Tybis]

I thought I was the only poet here. Hm.

You know these guys are serious when they start tossin lines and droppin beats.

 

[Pin Clock]

You know these guys are serious when they start tossin lines and droppin beats.

Clearly Brawl Minus' next changes will be based on the best poetry posted.

 

[Bent 00]

Clearly Brawl Minus' next changes will be based on the best poetry posted.

Spoiler: O RLY?

Here's some more poetry for you then, ha ha.

Yes, I know you're only kidding...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

if we're going to nerf sonic's Dair, then we should add a side b canceled on some combo starters or some kind of buff, cuz sonic is lacking in potent areas

 

[NEWB]

Or they need to better guarantee dair spring will KO, if the move by itself will be weakened.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Or they need to better guarantee dair spring will KO, if the move by itself will be weakened.

idk about that. I would like to see some creative designs happened. besides, sonic needs more than that.

 

[NEWB]

Not a whole lot more. The only thing he lacks is ko power. He excels in almost every other area.

Also, his jabs STILL need to be fixed. You can DI up and out of the last hit. I've even shielded in the middle of the combo at times. I also think zamus needs her jabs to link better.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Not a whole lot more. The only thing he lacks is ko power. He excels in almost every other area.

Also, his jabs STILL need to be fixed. You can DI up and out of the last hit. I've even shielded in the middle of the combo at times. I also think zamus needs her jabs to link better.

right, i just want out of the box ideas for sonic, and minus in general

 

[Thor]

Not a whole lot more. The only thing he lacks is ko power. He excels in almost every other area.

Also, his jabs STILL need to be fixed. You can DI up and out of the last hit. I've even shielded in the middle of the combo at times. I also think zamus needs her jabs to link better.

The "You can DI up and out of the last hit" is called SDI and every character's jab has that problem. If you were trying to crouch while shielding in the middle of the combos, you may have managed to CC -> shield the jab - I know that's a thing in Brawl, but I don't know about in Brawl-.

Or they need to better guarantee dair spring will KO, if the move by itself will be weakened.

That makes the problem worse, we're trying to stop Sonic from zero-death gimping people - no one else can do it well besides maybe Ganondorf, who's supposed to do stuff like that, but gets heavily combo'd and is very slow as a result, and arguably Falco with his dair, which still takes like 3 well-placed dairs to do on characters that are easier to gimp. Sonic getting easy zero-deaths is what people here don't want, which is why Bent tested Sonic's dair.

 

[Glyph]

If you want sonic's dair nerfed, pick him up and exploit this dair. If it's too hard to do, then that (to me) says its not broken.

 

[Bent 00]

Play against BC's Sonic and see what happens when you end up offstage.

 

[Thor]

If you want sonic's dair nerfed, pick him up and exploit this dair. If it's too hard to do, then that (to me) says its not broken.

Shouldn't be necessary - there was NOTHING broken, ZERO POINT ZERO BROKEN THINGS about Warlock Punch cancel (The move is trash and was trash with it and will continue to be trash with it or without it - like Pichu in Melee, it's bad, usable but still just terrible - anyone wanna debate me on this I will **** you up because I didn't even use 'Dorf and the fact that devs were like "don't like it, it's balanced but we don't like it, nerf it" is a TERRIBLE model and also caused a vocal backlash, and then devs and others were like "But we're bad so we're removing it anyway deal with it" which was retarded on so many different levels) and it was nerfed anyway. The fact that people FEARED what it could do, which was literally NOTHING if you had any semblance of dodging, means the fact that we here KNOW what Sonic dair can do, when it's faster, safer, and harder to avoid [because low percent recovery and Sonic's juggling game, as well as bthrow where these have already been highlighted] than Warlock Punch [and its projectile] is MORE than good enough reason to nerf it.

I'm also not suited to be a Sonic main. In fact I'm really not suited well to most of the cast I don't think - Falco, maybe Pikachu and MK cuz I like them, Sheik, Falcon, and Olimar, are about who I think I can actually use. I could play others at a decent level [Ness, Luigi, Mario, ROB, more] but it just doesn't feel natural or as good as playing the other characters.

And if I wanted to pick someone up for that reason alone I'd have picked up Yoshi like a week ago.