Brawl Minus 4.0 Changelog Preview!

[Kymaera K1ng]

Metaknight DTilt is GODLIKE. Set knockback move that combos into grab, USmash, FSmash, USpecial, and every other move he has(exaggeration).

I would also like to bring up my protest of the changes to Fox's Shine again. Opponents can already act out of being hit by a Shine in the air way to fast, and landing a well-spaced off-stage Shine should be more rewarding than Wave-Shining mindlessly anyway. I'm also curious to hear the logic behind the dev's thinking on the subject, so

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Pin please reply



#NeverForgetKien

 

[Caithness]

Will 4.0 final feature a way to play on Wii U with the GameCube controller adapter? (Is that even possible? I know nintendont lets you use the adapter with GC games.)

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Let's not forget to make Ike's grounded QD cancellable into itself like it should be. That seems to have been unintentionally patched because it wasnt in the 4.0b patch list.

 

[Destructo]

(Sees new alts and renders.)
WHEN WILL WE GET 4.0f
When it's done lol JUST ISNT ENOUGH
I HAVE A NEED
A GREED
AND YOU PEOPLE PLANTED THE SEED

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Pinclock.
Please.
reply to my comments on fox
wat did i do 2 u pin plz
i did not mean 2 anger the god

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Metaknight DTilt is GODLIKE. Set knockback move that combos into grab, USmash, FSmash, USpecial, and every other move he has(exaggeration).

I would also like to bring up my protest of the changes to Fox's Shine again. Opponents can already act out of being hit by a Shine in the air way to fast, and landing a well-spaced off-stage Shine should be more rewarding than Wave-Shining mindlessly anyway. I'm also curious to hear the logic behind the dev's thinking on the subject, so Pin please reply



#NeverForgetKien

I strongly agree with the decision to nerf shine's kb. We have a very good Fox in our scene, and I really credit his skill primarily to his wins. But there are times when Fox looks like "Shine Spike the character." I just hope that the knock back adjustment is done well so that he doesn't become "Wave Shine the character."

On another note entirely, I hope the MDT considers adjusting Ganon's throws (as I mentioned in his character thread). Nearly EVERY move Ganon has can kill somewhere between 60-100 depending on stage position and character weight. [fair, bair, up air, all smashes, dtilt, ftilt, WK, etc]

Consequently, I believe it is OP for Ganon to have 3 kill throws and a dthrow that is a kill confirm for grounded WK. Look at other Smashes as a reference. Melee, Brawl, PM, and 4 all fail to give Ganon a kill throw because the rest of his moveset is so deadly.

I personally think its best for Ganon to not have a single kill option for the sake of balance in the MU. But it would probably be efficient enough if he was adjusted to have only 1 kill option out of a grab. For example, adjusting up, back, and forward throw to no longer kill, but leaving the WK kill confirm out of down throw would he a good adjustment. This is just one example though, there are many different ways to achieve the same outcome.

One special note though, up throw could use an overall nerf. I believe it does 22 AND it kills around 105-120. That's NUTS!!! Throws rarely do more than 12 in other titles. I know this is Minus, but 22 damage from JUST the throw (no follow up attack, etc) is a bit too rewarding. Additionally, Ganon is a hard hitting, and very heavy character. Killer up throws are traditionally justified when given to characters that otherwise struggle to kill or survive hit [glass canons like Mewtwo in 4] , or when they kill very late [such as Marth's up throw killing around 160+ in most titles]

 

[Gold_TSG]

Dorf is all about killing people in just a few hits at the expense of any speed. I think he does need a kill throw, but a confirm? Not so much. WK also used to be roughly twice as strong as it currently is, which allowed him to net kills out of dthrow even earlier than you mention. Given how terrible his grab range usually is, even in minus, he needs some kind of reward for it. I strongly feel that in 4, he needs at least 1 kill throw (which I would make his bthrow, since it has 130 kbg. Makin it 2 hits of 5% ruins this, so changing it to a solid hit of 10% would fix this). Minus obviously takes things to the silliest degree by making all his throws amazing, but I don't feel he needs a guaranteed confirm.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Dorf is all about killing people in just a few hits at the expense of any speed. I think he does need a kill throw, but a confirm? Not so much. WK also used to be roughly twice as strong as it currently is, which allowed him to net kills out of dthrow even earlier than you mention. Given how terrible his grab range usually is, even in minus, he needs some kind of reward for it. I strongly feel that in 4, he needs at least 1 kill throw (which I would make his bthrow, since it has 130 kbg. Makin it 2 hits of 5% ruins this, so changing it to a solid hit of 10% would fix this). Minus obviously takes things to the silliest degree by making all his throws amazing, but I don't feel he needs a guaranteed confirm.

That's true that Ganons slow and has mediocre grab range. I think he would still be balance well enough with some kind of kill option from a grab. But having all 4 that he has now is just too much.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

BMDT should give Sheik Bouncing Fish mapped to FSpecial.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

BMDT should give Sheik Bouncing Fish mapped to FSpecial.

Um, no! lol...Chain is cool. It'd be sweet to have it replace transformation, though

 

[Thor]

Smash 4 didn't give Ganondorf a KO throw because of poor balancing decisions or something [he really needs one, or at least a low percent combo throw]. Melee was also balanced oddly, but it gave Ganondorf a top 5 dthrow that combos into his KO moves [and PM, instead of rebalancing his grab game, left him with a bad grab and an amazing throw]. He doesn't need a KO throw because dthrow is so absurd. And if you have not noticed, fthrow in that game *can* KO, it's just outclassed by dthrow.

Also, if he has one KO option from a throw, that just means he'll use that one more. Having multiple KO throws just means he can use them either direction, but it won't fix your issue of, "Why am I getting KO'd by Ganondorf's grab?" And as Gold_TSG pointed out, his grab range is so short that the real question should be, "Why did I let Ganondorf grab me?"

His uthrow could maybe get the BKB upped and KBG toned down, but it KOing at above 100 frankly sounds fine. Somewhat obnoxious to be sure, but basically all of his other KO moves KO earlier. It's similar to how you mentioned Marth uthrow - once everything [figuratively] KOs, Marth uthrow KOs. It's the same for Ganondorf uthrow based on what you've described, it's just the point where everything [figuratively] KOs is lower.

What should worry you more is that I think uthrow -> up+b uppercut can true combo on some characters at the right percents [maybe all?], and THAT will KO at like 55 or whatever the range is. Luigi can do uthrow Shoryuken in a similar fashion, but it's weaker [the aerial Shoryuken is fine, grounded one is still too weak in my opinion, and if both got buffed I would not say no lol].

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Smash 4 didn't give Ganondorf a KO throw because of poor balancing decisions or something [he really needs one, or at least a low percent combo throw]. Melee was also balanced oddly, but it gave Ganondorf a top 5 dthrow that combos into his KO moves [and PM, instead of rebalancing his grab game, left him with a bad grab and an amazing throw]. He doesn't need a KO throw because dthrow is so absurd. And if you have not noticed, fthrow in that game *can* KO, it's just outclassed by dthrow.

Also, if he has one KO option from a throw, that just means he'll use that one more. Having multiple KO throws just means he can use them either direction, but it won't fix your issue of, "Why am I getting KO'd by Ganondorf's grab?" And as Gold_TSG pointed out, his grab range is so short that the real question should be, "Why did I let Ganondorf grab me?"

His uthrow could maybe get the BKB upped and KBG toned down, but it KOing at above 100 frankly sounds fine. Somewhat obnoxious to be sure, but basically all of his other KO moves KO earlier. It's similar to how you mentioned Marth uthrow - once everything [figuratively] KOs, Marth uthrow KOs. It's the same for Ganondorf uthrow based on what you've described, it's just the point where everything [figuratively] KOs is lower.

What should worry you more is that I think uthrow -> up+b uppercut can true combo on some characters at the right percents [maybe all?], and THAT will KO at like 55 or whatever the range is. Luigi can do uthrow Shoryuken in a similar fashion, but it's weaker [the aerial Shoryuken is fine, grounded one is still too weak in my opinion, and if both got buffed I would not say no lol].

I'm starting to believe you merely like playing devil's advocate, lol...Having all the kill throws in any direction is OP no matter how you spin it. If Ganon is facing a lighter character (JP, Fox, etc) and lands a grab on either end of the stage (so close to blast zones) once they reach 50-60%, they are dead. If its midstage around 70-80, they are dead. A character should not always net a KO from a grab simply because its a bit harder to land than other grabs. ZSS has a grab that's very hard to land and VERY punishable, but we don't see her killing anywhere near that early off grabs .

And as for the logic of "his grabs killing when most other moves would so that makes it okay", the fact that EVERY move other than grab would kill in the same scenario is the very reason grabs shouldn't kill. Somewhere, the line has to be drawn for the sake of balance. Characters should be able to shield and force Ganon to approach and it more safely than they can currently. All of Ganons moves will kill, out prioritize or clash with other moves, do AMAZING damage, have buffed frame data, and have good range. So you're safe when you stay out of his reach or spot dodge/roll. Other than that, ur dead.

And if all grabs were nerfed except one (assuming the one isn't up throw), Yeah you would see that grab used more. But getting kills with it would require more work. Opponents would be aware of the throw and could position themselves to die later to the throw (similar to the Ness MU with his bthrow). So, if Ganon grabbed you and his kill throw sent you toward the far blast zone, you'd be much more likely to survive. Right now, Ganon just gets a kill if he grabs between 50-100 depending on character weight and stage position. Notice the low end of that range. That's too much.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Comparing grabs/throws between characters isn't a great way to call for balance. ZSS has much greater range, and can use them for combos to lead into kills. The difference between these two characters is how their entire kit works. ZSS is infinitely faster and more mobile than Dorf, with many better options, and a much better, much less linear recovery. They don't play alike at all, so asking for Dorf's throws to be nerfed just cause ZSS can't kill with them is not the way to get things changed.

I don't believe all of his throws necessarily need to be as powerful as they are, but having kill options with them regardless of where he is doesn't really matter, cause it's up to the opponent whether or not they allow Dorf to get the grab. You need to play pretty terribly or predictably to let someone with T-Rex reach to grab you to begin with.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Comparing grabs/throws between characters isn't a great way to call for balance. ZSS has much greater range, and can use them for combos to lead into kills. The difference between these two characters is how their entire kit works. ZSS is infinitely faster and more mobile than Dorf, with many better options, and a much better, much less linear recovery. They don't play alike at all, so asking for Dorf's throws to be nerfed just cause ZSS can't kill with them is not the way to get things changed.

I don't believe all of his throws necessarily need to be as powerful as they are, but having kill options with them regardless of where he is doesn't really matter, cause it's up to the opponent whether or not they allow Dorf to get the grab. You need to play pretty terribly or predictably to let someone with T-Rex reach to grab you to begin with.

Omg, lol. No need to overanalyze the comparison to ZSS. It was just the first slow, hard-to-land grab that came to mind and it's FAAAAR from the reason I'm suggesting the adjustment to Ganon's throws.

As for the rest of your post, I'll just say this again...

...as for the logic of "his grabs killing when most other moves would so that makes it okay", the fact that EVERY move other than grab would kill in the same scenario is the very reason grabs shouldn't kill. Somewhere, the line has to be drawn for the sake of balance...

And if all grabs were nerfed except one (assuming the one isn't up throw), Yeah you would see that grab used more. But getting kills with it would require more work. Opponents would be aware of the throw and could position themselves to die later to the throw (similar to the Ness MU with his bthrow). So, if Ganon grabbed you and his kill throw sent you toward the far blast zone, you'd be much more likely to survive. Right now, Ganon just gets a kill if he grabs between 50-100 depending on character weight and stage position. Notice the low end of that range. That's too much.

 

[Bent 00]

Turk Injaydii: 'Dorf's throws aren't that bad. I wouldn't mind one or two of them being made more of positioning tools instead of K.O. tools, though. Variety is nice.

I think you should direct your balancing efforts towards the truly OP, Upper-Tier characters, rather than pick on poor, Mid-Tier Ganondorf... In no particular order, I would look at Pichu, Fox, Lucario, Luigi, Falco, Peach, Yoshi, Dedede, Ice Climbers, Wolf, Sonic, Olimar, Ivysaur, Squirtle, D.K., and Wario before complaining about 'Dorf. Not saying all of those characters are OP or Top-Tier -- just that they have potentially OP aspects that I think deserve further consideration. Ganondorf should be pretty low on the Balancing priority list.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Turk Injaydii: 'Dorf's throws aren't that bad. I wouldn't mind one or two of them being made more of positioning tools instead of K.O. tools, though. Variety is nice.

I think you should direct your balancing efforts towards the truly OP, Upper-Tier characters, rather than pick on poor, Mid-Tier Ganondorf... In no particular order, I would look at Pichu, Fox, Lucario, Falco, Peach, Yoshi, Dedede, Ice Climbers, Wolf, Sonic, Olimar, and Wario before complaining about 'Dorf. Not saying all of those characters are OP or Top-Tier -- just that they have potentially OP aspects that I think deserve further consideration. Ganondorf should be pretty low on the Balancing priority list.

wtf can IC's and Olimar do? I also think that the lower tier characters being buffed should be a higher priority.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Turk Injaydii: 'Dorf's throws aren't that bad. I wouldn't mind one or two of them being made more of positioning tools instead of K.O. tools, though. Variety is nice.

I think you should direct your balancing efforts towards the truly OP, Upper-Tier characters, rather than pick on poor, Mid-Tier Ganondorf... In no particular order, I would look at Pichu, Fox, Lucario, Falco, Peach, Yoshi, Dedede, Ice Climbers, Wolf, Sonic, Olimar, and Wario before complaining about 'Dorf. Not saying all of those characters are OP or Top-Tier -- just that they have potentially OP aspects that I think deserve further consideration. Ganondorf should be pretty low on the Balancing priority list.

There are plenty of things that need to be addressed in 4.0b. Dorf was just something that came to mind, so I shared it.

Furthermore, nothing's meant to be viewed as "complaining." This game is in beta, and right now it has that crutch to lean on when players find things that seem too silly/over the top/etc. But once 4.0f comes out, what was looked over before will be scrutinized more heavily. Its up to players to bring issues to the devs in hopes that they will be adjusted and, consequently, help 4.0f be the best it can be.

In mentioning Ganon's throws or anything else, that's what I'm doing. If there are other issues, cool. Bring them to the table. However, the presence of MORE unbalanced aspects than aspects that have already been mentioned is not justification to ignore an occurrence of poor balance.

 

[Bent 00]

wtf can IC's and Olimar do?

I think ICs are potentially OP, but no one here plays them much except BC, so no one knows how good they really are. Sliding Blizzard is particularly annoying to deal with. As for Olimar, he isn't so much OP as he is shallow, like Dedede and his army. They both need to be made less spam-oriented.

I also think that the lower tier characters being buffed should be a higher priority.

I agree with you there.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Omg, lol. No need to overanalyze the comparison to ZSS. It was just the first slow, hard-to-land grab that came to mind and it's FAAAAR from the reason I'm suggesting the adjustment to Ganon's throws.

As for the rest of your post, I'll just say this again...

Analyzing is how people learn the characters' strengths and weaknesses. I've poured thousands of hours into Dorf over the course of every game he's been in, as well as mods. I'm debating your opinions on his throws in a neutral manner using knowledge and experience. I didn't say they were fine as is, twice.

You gotta be careful with what you say when you're debating issues on characters. You can't just bring up a different character and use them as a base for where the other character stands. That's what leads to debates like this.

 

[Neville]

I think ICs are potentially OP, but no one here plays them much except BC, so no one knows how good they really are. Sliding Blizzard is particularly annoying to deal with.

I play a lot of ICs and I really don't think they're op. Yes they rack up a lot of damage really quickly but it's also really easy to separate them and kill Nana especially since she dies in tumble. You can footstool her offstage without a jump or hit her with a weak meteor and she'll die and you can't upb to save her out of tumble.

Edit: Once nana is dead Popo is basically dead because he sucks and his recovery sucks.

 

[Mario3785]

I play a lot of ICs and I really don't think they're op. Yes they rack up a lot of damage really quickly but it's also really easy to separate them and kill Nana especially since she dies in tumble. You can footstool her offstage without a jump or hit her with a weak meteor and she'll die and you can't upb to save her out of tumble.

Edit: Once nana is dead Popo is basically dead because he sucks and his recovery sucks.

In 4.0f, Nana will only die in hitstun. It's stated on the original post. So, tumble won't do anything...unless that counts as hitstun.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

In 4.0f, Nana will only die in hitstun. It's stated on the original post. So, tumble won't do anything...unless that counts as hitstun.

I feel that is too much of a buff. Whole point of the IC's MU is to separate them and kill Nana. It's already much harder to kill Nana in Minus. Idk why the feel the need to make it even harder.

 

[BC]

Actually, Nana only dies if she's not in special fall state. Basically, if Nana doesn't Up-B or Side-B, she dies. If she does, then you can call her back whenever. She will die in tumble.

 

[Neville]

I feel that is too much of a buff. Whole point of the IC's MU is to separate them and kill Nana. It's already much harder to kill Nana in Minus. Idk why the feel the need to make it even harder.

The ICs were originally supposed to die only in hitstun and due to an oversight they also die in tumble. This is extremely obvious when Peach's extremely weak meteor dair kills nana at stupid early percents if she can't jump out of it.

 

[Bent 00]

Labbed ICs an hour or so. Haven't found anything obviously OP yet... but being able to make Blizzard and D-Smash slide around, and Blizzard being Grab-Cancellable? Those things seem like they would be too easy to spam, making ICs annoying to play against. I'm not a fan of giving ground moves that are normally stationary the ability to slide around freely (just looks weird to me). Having a Grab Cancel on Blizzard makes it a guaranteed Grab at lower percents, and Popo can throw out Blizzards to cover a follow-up aerial by Nana.

Should I make a separate thread for this?